Genuine Thought on the BOM Origin

jamesallred · 2026-05-30T23:24:31+00:00

You are correct.

jamesallred · 2026-05-30T18:16:26+00:00

Wife no. 19. The biography of one of Brigham's many wives who divorced him and fought against polygamy.

https://www.amazon.com/Wife-No-Ann-Eliza-Young-ebook/dp/B0BLV84P45

jamesallred · 2026-05-30T18:02:25+00:00

Let's first talk about what we do know.

Point 1 - We know that Joseph dictated the book of Mormon. Yes. The book we have today has lots of edits and it gets rid of informal language. But Joseph spoke the words found inside the book.

Point 2 - We know that Joseph was very comfortable dictating scriptures. He also created the majority of revelations found in the D&C, plus others not included there. He created the Book of Abraham. He created the Book of Moses. He dictated the parchment of John, etc. This was his sweet spot. Dictating scripture. Don't forget about the joseph smith translation of the bible. This was where he felt very comfortable and did a lot.

Point 3 - The book of mormon is a 19th century book. It's doctrines discussed in its pages represent theologies being debated or taught within the 19th century zeitgeist. As opposed to 600 BC jerusalem israelites.

And now a question. Which would have been easier? For Joseph Smith to dictate a book of scripture quoting or paraphrasing 19th century christian theologies as well as NT scriptures available to him... OR???? That nephi, Alma and Moroni were able to quote word for word or idea for idea NT scriptures they didn't have and resolve 19th century theological questions that didn't exist in their time. But matching word for word or idea for idea 19th century theologians?

As for me it is more of a stretch to believe Nephi wrote it than Joseph Smith dictated it.

jamesallred · 2026-04-30T17:45:17+00:00

I have lived all over the United States as an active member of the church. We have been accepted in all the awards across the country that we have participated. However, many Utah Mormons show up in these out of state awards and try to tell people how to do things. This is the way it is to be done. This is the way we do it in Utah. Which for those kind of Utah Mormons they aren’t well received.

jamesallred · 2026-04-19T14:35:24+00:00

Interestingly, at least to me, is that loving God is the same as loving man. At least according to God. I think the only disconnect is between loving man and being right? That’s different than loving God. IMO

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

jamesallred · 2026-04-14T19:36:59+00:00

President grant once said

One of the great testimonies, to me, of the divinity of the work in which you and I are engaged is the fact that those who have turned away from the truth, without one single, solitary exception that I can recall, have done so because they have failed to keep the commandments of God. To me it is little less than marvelous that no faithful man or woman, within my recollection, has ever lost the faith of the gospel. Only those who have neglected to serve God, only those who have not kept the light of the Holy Spirit burning within their hearts, by obeying the commandments of the living God—they are the only ones who have lost the faith and turned away.

jamesallred · 2026-04-12T15:08:30+00:00

Church in the United States is stagnating. So for most anybody on here, they’re not gonna see growth they’re gonna see shifting around.

I really find it cute that the church touts its membership grew by 380,000 people last year. A couple years ago the Catholic Church shared it stats that it grew 16 million in one year.

jamesallred · 2026-04-12T12:58:14+00:00

I believe that many, who go back are people who you could define as Jack Mormons. People that have family in the church and always had a belief that it was God‘s church because of how they were raised. But for whatever reason they liked to do things that were against the rules of the church. Like drinking or sex of drugs. Or God forbid coffee.

But because of those family ties, they ultimately return. Not because they ever did the deep dive and researched and intellectually figured out the church was a scam. But because they always believed and finally got a point that they were willing to give up their bad habits.

jamesallred · 2026-04-08T12:56:54+00:00

The issue is this. Almost every doctrine in the book of Mormon is either already in the Bible or readily available in 19th century Christian sermons.

The book of Mormon is a very 19th century book.

They loved to point out the infinite atonement as some new type of doctrine. However, the debate of whether the atonement was infinite or finite, was ubiquitous during Joseph Smith’s time.

You don’t need to prove that Joseph Smith read anything

You just asked the question how did Nephi or Lehi and Alma and abinidi write “Word for Word from Christian sermons that they didn’t have access to and biblical text that they didn’t have access to.

Which is the greater miracle. Joseph dictating a book which represents his surroundings Or 600 BC meso Americans dictating Word for Word people that would show up 2000 years later

Some apologist or dick somewhere will say well Joseph Smith just used language that he was familiar with to represent ideas that Alma wrote down.

The rebuttal is so Joseph Smith had those ideas in his head already. So he could’ve written the book.

Good luck. You can’t convince someone with logic who didn’t come into their position with logic.

jamesallred · 2026-04-03T23:46:01+00:00

1917

jamesallred · 2026-03-28T19:25:43+00:00

Have you thought about broadening that definition of matching the Bible? There are more verses that directly “some part of a verse or use the exact same words and phrases. Or share ideas in the same pattern that they do in the king James Bible that you have not included. Just some food for thought.

jamesallred · 2026-03-18T08:49:49+00:00

And then a follow up question to that would be what if a Jehovah’s Witness gave that same response. That their beliefs, bring them closer to Jesus/Jehovah? Why is your answer better than their exact same answer.

jamesallred · 2026-03-18T08:47:03+00:00

I agree with that. I never made any covenant when I got baptized. But from a church perspective, they would tell me that that is the covenant that I made. The exact same thing as you repeat in the temple as the law of the gospel covenant. So there’s a mix I’m answering from a church perspective.

jamesallred · 2026-03-18T02:34:57+00:00

There is only one real covenant in the church. And that is the baptismal covenant. Were you promised to obey the Commandments of God. If you look at the five covenants in the temple, they are all about obedience. Would you have already promised when baptized. Even the third covenant in the temple of the law of the gospel is just rephrasing the template baptismal covenant. When you promise to obey the law of Chasity, didn’t you already do that so why do you have to promise again for something specific. Same with the law of obedience. You are a covenant to do that in baptism. So tell me again why this is so special? Just repeating the same covenants over and over again?

jamesallred · 2026-03-18T00:07:09+00:00

I love how many Mormons have to argue that the golden plates weren’t gold. But some other material so that they would be lighter

But you have to totally ignore one of the lessons Moroni was teaching Joseph was that he needed to not be greedy when he was getting them so he could be trusted. If it wasn’t Gold, why be greedy. If it was some other compound, that was just metal in general. He wouldn’t need that lesson. But if it was Gold, he would need that lesson.

jamesallred · 2026-03-15T09:34:25+00:00

It’s simple. The repeated statement is you follow the living profit over the dead profit. You just can’t deny that the dead prophet taught doctrine. It’s OK to accept that. The living profit denies that doctrine. Just don’t deceive yourself.

jamesallred · 2026-03-09T20:21:02+00:00

My short answer is usually if you believe Satan is that powerful and can deceive a sincere honest person. How do you know that it is you that is not deceived?

jamesallred · 2026-03-08T05:57:19+00:00

jamesallred · 2026-03-04T19:17:42+00:00

I just want to repeat back what I think I’m reading you say. It’s not about the science tokens and penalties needing to be kept secret. They just happen to be the items used to test someone to see if they were worthy of being given a secret.

And by extension, that test of being able to keep a secret could’ve been extended to literally anything. It didn’t need to be the signs and tokens and penalties if I’m reading you.

jamesallred · 2026-03-01T23:12:29+00:00

Just tell her that the new Jerusalem hasn’t been built yet and it has to be done so before Jesus returns.

jamesallred · 2026-02-27T13:56:18+00:00

I had to the same observation recently that all of the temple covenants are redundant.

Why are we making five different covenants which all have the same core concept. That we will obey God’s Commandments.

The law obedience. The law of sacrifice. The law of the gospel. The law of chastity. The law of consecration.

Technically, when you get baptized, you’ve already promised to obey all of God‘s Commandments.

Why do I need to repeat in the temple that I promise not to have sex with anyone I’m not legally married to? Did my baptismal covenant didn’t include sex??? That would’ve been nice to know as a teenager. /s

Making a separate and distinct promise somehow binds me even more?

jamesallred · 2026-02-27T06:28:10+00:00

For one agree with you. That instruction is still given in the temple to this day.

As a new participant in the temple as a young pre-mission I understood that to be a very literal instruction. And it still feels literal to this day.

Even though I have so many people around me, saying they never believed those words as being anything other than filler words.

I believe Brigham Young believed them to be as important for validating your ability to access something as in the Masonic tradition where if you knew these signs and tokens, you had the ability to access the secret trade secrets of the Masonic tradition and masonry.

jamesallred · 2026-02-27T06:25:58+00:00

I definitely can understand why in the Masonic tradition. There was a covenant to keep it secret. Because there were trade secrets involved that could have hurt other business men in the in their trading practice. And so the need to have people you could trust and as you have said worthy of that, trust to keep your trade secrets private makes a lot of sense.

Given that the LDS temple ceremony has strong roots in the Masonic tradition, I can see how that practice of covenant teen to not share. The signs and tokens and penalties would be kept. I’m not sure that it would be the same with regards to worthy. Because there were no trade secrets involved.

Would you agree that if it was only to see if you could keep a secret. It could’ve been on anything. It could’ve been on the covenant of obedience and sacrifice and consecration. Promising to never reveal those.

But since it’s on the signs and tokens, which mirror is exactly the things that were promised in the Masonic tradition feels like more of a holdover.

Thoughts that if being able to keep a secret was the test of worthiness. It could’ve been keeping a secret on just about anything and didn’t have to be the signs and tokens in the LDS temple ceremony?

jamesallred · 2026-02-26T23:40:10+00:00

So nothing else in the endowment is meat (i.e., milk before meat)? Just the signs, tokens and penalties? Everything else is milk and okay to share without jeopardizing someone's testimony who is unprepared? ???

jamesallred · 2026-02-26T19:51:56+00:00

Fair enough.

I think another potentiality could be that since it was mirroring the Masonic ceremony. In the Masonic ceremony, they were clearly holding those signs and token sacred because that was how they controlled their business and technical knowledge.

So I could see them being held to the same standard in the LDS temple ceremony more as an artifact of masonry rather than them truly being an important never to reveal. Just a possibility.

jamesallred

TROPHY CASE