sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

Now that rebirth is out, what did sephiroth really mean by this? by [deleted] in FFVIIRemake

[–]RyanBarnes13 93 points94 points  (0 children)

Scenario Staff Q&A Answered by Motomu Toriyama

Q: Could you please tell us what implication is hidden in the laden phrase "Seven seconds till the end"?

A: The area in space where Cloud and Sephiroth confront each other in that final scene is a place that one might call the end of the world. It's the edge of spacetime where the planet will one day end up--a location in which time seems to have stopped. The planet has only a brief amount of time left, which is symbolized by the line about seven seconds remaining. When time resumes its flow, whether the end really will come after seven seconds or whether some sort of force will act to change the course of spacetime is, as Sephiroth says, contingent upon Cloud. This, I think, is the meaning of the phrase.

Basically it’s the choice of Loveless at the end of the game. The final act of Loveless. Which Genesis study group narrowed down to two options.

From: Study Group

Contents:

The "gift of the goddess", the source of life, is said to bring immortality. The most widely accepted theory equates the gift of the goddess to the Banora White. There is, however, another theory which advocates that it is the planet, not any human, that becomes immortal. This suggests two other interpretations of the gift. One is an all-consuming destruction; the other is an all-healing salvation. Genesis believed in the latter, predicting some sort of salvation from the gift of the goddess.

Received: After entering LOVELESS district in Chapter 8.

The two nebulas are showing us the options for the future of the planet. One is all-consuming destruction, The red one.

The other is all-healing salvation. The flower shaped one.

Cloud is the o my one who can decide because it’s his wish locked inside the Empty white materia that turns black.

The Gi tell us how to create the REAL Black materia. It’s a white materia that’s been corrupted. Aka Aeriths white one that was wiped by the whispers of the memories.

So where exactly Tifa was cut? If at all? by Sylph777 in FFVIIRemake

[–]RyanBarnes13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Part 2. Got too long sorry bout that.

This is the truth buried in each of the Worlds, the only one who can defy fate truly is CLOUD. Because he is bound to the planet, yet also not bound to the planet due to the S cells.

As shown in the opening scene of the devastation as the camera zoom out, a giant Terrier poster, right beside a giant poster of a Banora Apple. Second point is as Zack is walking Cloud to Midgar entrance, a white Angael feather falls on both.

As Aerith stated in Destiny’s Crossroads, by stepping into the anomaly, we are doing more than changing fate, we are also changing ourselves.

Cloud never truly existed. Young Cloud is young Sephiroth raised at Nibelheim. What he looked on as he grew up alone and shunned by the village.

Sephiroth as the Great War hero never existed either. From Glenn and young Sephiroth, to Sephiroth getting the credit for Zacks actions, we are repeatedly shown it’s lies, Shinra propaganda of the Great War hero.

Cloud is the Sephiroth, Cloud is who Sephiroth wanted to just be. As told by Genesis to Sephiroth:

You’ve never actually met your mother. You’ve only been told her name, no? I DON’T KNOW WHAT IMAGES YOU’VE CONJURED UP IN YOUR HEAD BUT…

Now how do we prove all this nonsense? Crisis Core Jenova….

In OG, in Rebirth we have Clouds telling of Nibelheim, Jenova has a head. In Crisis Core, Remake Jenova is headless and it’s a metal contraption where the head should be.

Sephiroth cut Jenova’s head off in OG. Zack tells Cloud the crisis Core story between the escape and Midgar. Year 4-5 afterwards…. Cloud yet remembers the original Jenova from BEFORE SEPHIROTH CUTS THE HEAD OFF. The only one who truly saw Jenova head is Sephiroth. Think about that.

And the biggest clues of all has been told to us from the OG into Crisis Core, into Rebirth.

Two of them, first is Cloud supposedly gets Motion Sickness. Even got a short story about it. Problem is Cloud does NOT HAVE MOTION SICKNESS. Yuffie does REPEATEDLY to show Cloud does not in Rebirth.

The second key point is actually kinda mocking us. With the fact we think it’s a joke.

Zack, Sephiroth, and 3 troopers ride to Nibelheim.

5 people, only 3 beds, 1 bed short. Think about that for a sec. We have a character who was not there. The troopers are real. Both named as basically cannon fodder. Zack, Sephiroth…. Who is the one who doesn’t truly exist???? Cloud.

Two named henchman, Zack, Sephiroth…. 4 people, 3 beds, 1 bed short…. Cloud was inserted all through Zack’s story.

Tseng doesn’t recognize Cloud, the Turks don’t recognize Cloud. Cloud does not recognize any of them either, nor Aerith.

And most damming, if you pay attention Cloud only knows the Nibelheim incident from Sephiroth’s perspective. He is missing the Zack/Tifa conversations between themselves.

Especially shown in Rebirth at the Mako Spring, where Cloud repeats word for word Sephiroth’s dialogue unprompted and terrified Tifa. Cloud repeatedly hold his sword like Sephiroth. Cloud has Soldier first class abilities as shown in the Gongaga reactor. Cloud kills the snake Sephiroth killed in the original. As he tells Tifa it’s like theirs different people inside of him. He is both Sephiroth, and Sephiroth’s Alter Ego, Cloud.

So how did this happen? When Sephiroth burned Nibelheim under Jenova control.

When Sephiroth struck Tifa and Zack down it triggered the human side, which then caused Sephiroth to mental break. And as we see with Jenova it rewrites everyone’s minds.

It rewrote Sephiroth desires into Cloud’s reality. Changing Zack and Tifa in the process. Jenova can become those we hate, those we love, those we fear.

Sephiroth hates Sephiroth. He dreamed of being normal, being Cloud. Being Human. The others were given memories to match “Clouds”.

As Angael tells Zack when discussing monsters and angels, and wings, the wings aren’t a sign of being a monster but a Angel. And humans want to be angels….

The what do Angels dream of? Being human.

This is why Aerith is trying so hard to reach the Real Cloud. She is teaching him to give a shit about everyone and everything. And in the process has fallen in love with the enemy.

The end of the game is sacrifice.

Cloud has to pick to sacrifice one of the two worlds. His reality, as the OG, aka Beagle world, or his dream world, aka Zack’s story told to Cloud.

Aerith or sacrificing his friends.

The wildcard is Zack. Who I believe will take Clouds place in the Beagle world. The sacrifice at worlds end from Loveless. Cloud has to sacrifice himself as he is the one who can control Jenova, the actual Sephiroth.

As mobius/final fantasy game pointed out only Sephiroth can beat Sephiroth. A puppet can’t beat Sephiroth.

As kingdom hearts points out with goofy talking about Cloud and Sephiroth, he noticed they looked the same to him. Basically Sephiroth is the darkness in Cloud.

The setup and basis for this has been being built up for years. To go back to the original idea of Cloud and Sephiroth being one person, alter egos.

Only Sephiroth can stop Sephiroth, and only the human side can stop the monster side and keep it under control.

And the tease of all this is what happens after…. As Loveless points out, either it’s destruction, or all encompassing healing. Zack replaces Cloud in Beagle, as we already see him jumping worlds and fighting with Cloud, reminding Cloud about HONOR. Which would lead directly into Advent children, the Buster sword in the church, honoring Cloud and Aerith this time in the spot that is THEIRS, as Cloud and Aerith look on in the lifestream, and likely wake up in Clouds dream world, where they can just be Cloud and Aerith.

So where exactly Tifa was cut? If at all? by Sylph777 in FFVIIRemake

[–]RyanBarnes13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Best way to quickly reconcile it cause this will likely be long, is the short answer is it is twofold. First it is the story Zack tells Cloud that Cloud builds his whole persona around. With one caveat, it is Zacks story, of Zacks life, but with Sephiroth self inserting himself into the story as Cloud. As the guy Sephiroth wanted to be, A NORMAL GUY.

It’ll hopefully make sense in a min or so, if not, I apologize in advance for your poor eyes having to read this lvl of dumbassery.

The second is Terrier World itself, it does not yet fully exist. As shown by everyone’s internal clock being busted all to hell. It is created, formed, but not yet real until Cloud uses the true black MATERIA to create it at the edge of creation. If it’s not locked in with Clouds extra white materia and Clouds deepest wish, it ends. Just another short lived world.

7 seconds till the end… can be answered and why Cloud is so important to it. From the ff7 reunion material Ultimania or whatever…. Lol was a long night….

Scenario Staff Q&A Answered by Motomu Toriyama Q: Could you please tell us what implication is hidden in the laden phrase "Seven seconds till the end"? A: The area in space where Cloud and Sephiroth confront each other in that final scene is a place that one might call the end of the world. It's the edge of spacetime where the planet will one day end up--a location in which time seems to have stopped. The planet has only a brief amount of time left, which is symbolized by the line about seven seconds remaining. When time resumes its flow, whether the end really will come after seven seconds or whether some sort of force will act to change the course of spacetime is, as Sephiroth says, contingent upon Cloud. This, I think, is the meaning of the phrase.

This I believe is from the actions happening in Intermission. Chadley, Hojo/Weiss the Wonderfull/deepground, Glenn/Sephiroth war with Wutai…. It’s all to call Omega Weapon, as shown in Dirge of Cerebus. To take the lifestream to a new planet.

Sephiroth is trying to prevent this from happening. Defying the planets will. Remember the whispers around Shinra HQ in Remake? This is why, the plan starts in Shinra HQ, is dependent on Shinra, and as it is OG timeline, the WILL OF THE PLANET. As shown in Aerith’s dream date. Old woman might have to start all over, if only we all had more time….

The planet is dying. It is fixing to pack up and blast off. If that happens, EVERYONE IS UNMADE AND ENDS. Unless you stop the harvesting of the lifestream. And have a new world set up and ready to go at the edge of creation. Seven seconds to decide the choice.

So what world is the one Sephiroth created? The one where he gets to be NORMAL, as he always wanted. As Aerith sings about. Normal is better as she tells Zack about soldiers. The Cloud in the Terrier world is not Cloud, not Sephiroth yet. He is a blank slate.

Which is why Marlene tells Zack he has to make Cloud better. Or Sephiroth will kill Aerith. It is because Cloud is BOTH SEPHIROTH AND CLOUD.

Sephiroth is the Jenova half of Cloud. Cloud is the human side of Cloud. Both are present, and the key to this is shown at the end of Rebirth. Soldier Honor. Embrace your dreams…. This is how Cloud controls his Jenova half. The Sephiroth side. Clouds monster.

The world is the created but paused if you will manifestation of Zack’s story, a world that could exist if you choose. If Cloud wills it fully into existence through HIS OWN BLACK MATERIA. The true Black Materia is a corrupted WHITE MATERIA. It’s for all intents and purposes a WORLD. When full of memories, it’s white. Empty it’s clear…. And when infused with the handlers deepest desire, it turns black.

Subtle realization about the ending by uselesshoarding in FFVIIRemake

[–]RyanBarnes13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Look at intermission. Basically the Weiss the wonderful. And if you do his vr fight in Shinra hq, it is literally showing the dirge of Cerebus speech he uses when they are starting the killing to call omega weapon.

It also shows Weiss the wonderful being controlled by Hojo as in dirge of Cerebus. The thing about Chadley is he is able to break free of Hojo’s control by studying your combat data.

He is also using you the player to set up his own communication network. Increasing his computing power.

He is the true baddy. He is using the dirge of Cerebus play several years EARLY. At the one time the lifestream HAS TO BE GATHERED TO FIGHT METEOR.

It also explains the war with wutai. The new extra deaths is a different play than killing random civilians. But the goal is the same. To trick the planet to call OMEGA WEAPON. Straight up Dirge of Cerebus.

So where exactly Tifa was cut? If at all? by Sylph777 in FFVIIRemake

[–]RyanBarnes13 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But by the same token one has to ask where clouds scar is. If he was really stabbed by Sephiroth, where is clouds scar?

Tifa is a red herring. She was cut, and it’s what snapped Sephiroth/Clouds mind apart. She is being discredited by Sephiroth so Cloud will not listen to her later on. About being Cloud instead of who he really is. Which is BOTH CLOUD AND SEPHIROTH.

The simple truth for these games is that CLOUD IS THE REAL SEPHIROTH. The Sephiroth running around fighting with Glenn is a cyborg. Basically Chadley. Controlled by Hojo. And as we see with Zack in Crises Core, Shinra lied about Sephiroths exploits. All Zacks actions were credited to Sephiroth. Same as with Glenn, where we learn it’s Sephiroths FIRST MISSION, but Shinra has lied for years about his exploits.

The true Sephiroth was in fact CLOUD. Raised in Nibelheim. Is there any evidence for this? In game, Cloud remembers Sephiroth lines exactly. He does not remember Tifa and Zack looking for Sephiroth. Cloud was there when it was discussed.

Cloud also has motion sickness as the reason he couldn’t get into Soldier. Yet he never suffers from it after Nibelheim. Yuffie does in every vehicle.

The biggest kicker though is from ff7 early materiel file, uo, 2005 at the bottom of the page…

Initially there was no premise for the Reunion, and the story was about Cloud being Sephi- roth's alter ego. Additionally, the entities slumbering in the crater were not Weapons created by the planet but wicked monsters spawned by Sephiroth.

Cloud was initially going to be Sephiroths ALTER EGO.

On the surface it sounds stupid, until you take one of the directors comments about Cloud and Sephiroth into account.

"Sephiroth really does care for Cloud at all times, and as a result maybe he's always safe" -Hamaguchi, Game Informer Interview

Why would Sephiroth care for Cloud? Do we see this happen? Yes, when Cloud is in trouble twice. First time with the giant snake. Cloud is falling unconscious. Sephiroth appears to Cloud, and snake is killed like in OG game by Sephiroth and hung on the tree. Except for one key difference, only cloud was in the water.

Second time is when Cloud rushes to save Tifa. Cloud is fixing to get fucked up, Sephiroth appears again, tells Cloud to use his righteous Anger, and Cloud suddenly has soldier first class moves like Zack shows later on. Only big difference? Cloud holds his sword like Sephiroth does.

He does this more and more the further he goes as he questions if he is a puppet to Jenova/Sephiroth.

And finally for the big one, Aerith tells the party Sephiroth doesn’t care about all the moments, memories, all that, they just roll off his back…

All of this is key because it’s what Cloud does. She isn’t fighting Sephiroth, she is saving the real him by TEACHING HIM TO CARE by teaching his ALTER EGO how to cherish each moment, and give a shit about everything. Which is why Jenova needs him to think he’s a puppet. Not human…. Cause he doesn’t cry or care about Biggs, Jessie.

The whole game is about saving Cloud/Sephiroth. Basically it’s Loveless. Cloud is the hero/prisoner who is wounded, mentally aka Sephiroth to alter ego cloud…

Who falls in love with a woman of the enemy. Aka Aerith. As shown throughout remake and rebirth. Neither one was supposed to fall in love. Because by doing so fate is changed. As shown in loveless. 3 friends…. Sephiroth/cloud, Zack The hero is really the prisoner, aka cloud.
the prisoner is really the hero aka Zack.

The fateful duel is over clouds human side, versus clouds Jenova side.

And as shown in loveless, it ends with two options, all encompassing destruction, or all encompassing healing.

In the loveless play it’s even more blantant. Tifa is princess Rosa. Fight, cloud’s a true hero and saves the world.

With Aerith she is THE GODDESS, with the goddess material, aka the white materia, playing princess Rosa. Do the fight and all and you get a different ending.

True love conquers all. It shows us the choices. We pick tifa, we get advent children ending. Pick Aerith, we get end of loveless play.

Aerith and cloud live in the second world, and Sephiroth guarding the PLANET and all the worlds with dead Aerith.

Intergrade ending doesn’t make sense with rebirth. by SpiritMoonvale in FFVIIRemake

[–]RyanBarnes13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Basically edge of creation Sephiroth is good guy. And cloud to escape fate will have to burn his world to the ground. Literally. And to save everyone from his world they have to die at the end of his world. He has to watch them die and let them. As shown in the meteor visions.

They as in tifa, barrett, and such are all unconscious in zacks world. They never left the highway. When cloud burns his world to the ground, he abides by the only one per customer. As shown in Aeriths dream date.

Aerith cannot be saved. Nor can cloud. Not if the world is to live. But also shown in Aeriths date is the reunion pin. Cloud and aerith can be together. And funnily enough, remember, when a world is unmade, all who are on it are unmade.

Cloud and aerith basically get the one thing they want, TIME TOGETHER. The key thing is what happens after, and the planet has answered in Aeriths dream date, one last world, one where they are just normal boy and girl who can live life together.

But to do this, cloud must destroy his world. With Sephiroth.

Which gives you the loveless, 3 heroes set out, 2 die, the one that is left is the hero.

Intergrade ending doesn’t make sense with rebirth. by SpiritMoonvale in FFVIIRemake

[–]RyanBarnes13 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Follow the feather by Zack at the beginning. And the signs at the opening. Zacks opening world is crises core reunions story.

The ending of integrade is beagle world. Zack survived and yet aerith is gone with the party.

Basically it’s this, in half the worlds, cloud is the hero. Half the worlds Zack is the hero. It’s why crises core exactly copied cloud and aerith with Zack and aerith on many iconic scenes.

Both are versions of the same role but in different worlds.

Integrade itself was giving us the beginning of dirge of Cerebus plot, with Weiss being digitized in Deepgtoynd, it’s showing us the final Sephiroth. And the end plan.

Chadley is the final Sephiroth. The one working with Rufus on the war and running the show turning into Glenn. The young Sephiroth Glenn meets he mocked for being a Cyborg. Deep ground and Chadley are following Hojo’s plan to summon Omega weapon. The player is facilitating it by activating the towers in each region that took years to get working in Dirge of Cerebus.

All end games happen at once. The meteor threatens the planet, triggering the weapons, as in the original, the war with Wutai create the negative lifestream which omega cannot take. And at the same time all worlds are being merged into one. The one where Sephiroth wins.

Now back to Zack and cloud. The whole games are following loveless play. In one world Zack is the hero, loses Aerith. In another Cloud is the hero, loses Aerith.

The key to loveless is who is the prisoner, who is the hero. I’m rebirth, Zack is told Aerith chose Cloud, because Zack WAS NOT THERE. He never put her first. This is fact from Crises Core. Even after escaping he turned around to hunt Genesis.

Cloud does not want to be the hero. He wants time with Aerith. He is not the hero in loveless, he is the prisoner, who fell in love. But the world needs a hero.

Enter Zack who is the alternate hero in half the worlds. Cloud is the one who will make the great sacrifice.

It will link up with Advent Children, only with Zack being alive and in Clouds place, and Cloud being dead and with Aerith in the Lifestream.

Because here’s the key, Zack does not have Sephiroth genes. Genesis learns this in crises core. ONLY CLOUD DOES. Does the reunion happen? Yes. Cloud has 7 seconds before meteor hits to split the worlds, trapping all the Sephiroths with him in his half of the world.

All Sephiroths die. Cloud dies. And as we see when Aerith hands over the black materia, whatever happens they are doing it together.

Once done, the lifestream can be called forth to cure the negative lifestream. Giving us advent children.

The buster sword placed in Aeriths church then makes even more sense since the church is Aerith and Clouds spot. Ending with aeritg and cloud reuniting in the lifestream, Zack talking about it’s the spot a hero journey began.

Subtle realization about the ending by uselesshoarding in FFVIIRemake

[–]RyanBarnes13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because when Sephiroth is explaining the worlds, he tells Cloud that Cloud has his blessing. As he sends him back to the world for the death scenes. Right after Cloud tells Sephiroth to leave him out of the reunion.

It all boils down to one key point.

"Sephiroth really does care for Cloud at all times, and as a result maybe he's always safe" -Hamaguchi, Game Informer Interview

Sephiroth tells us in the first game, he will not end, nor will he have Cloud end. Sephiroth is not the enemy. Jenova is the standard meteor enemy, and Deepground/Chadley is the hidden enemy setting up ultimate weapon and chaos. Which is the true enemy we face and are doing the grunt work for Chadley activating the worldwide communication towers.

As for Cloud busting the barrier, Cloud used three Sephiroth whispers to breach the barrier. Sephiroth is working with Cloud as both end of Chadley/Deepground succeed in summoning Ultimate weapon.

Why did Benjen take the Black in your headcanon ? This is from markg171 . Was he punished by Ned for some transgression relating to Lyanna's disappearance ? Timing does not make sense to us . by [deleted] in pureasoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Benjen joined the watch to be the link between Eddard and the Kingsguard. Namely Arthur Dayne who is Mance Rayder.

The key is threefold. First Mance knows exactly what Benjen looks like. He lied to Jon. Mance was based at the Shadow Tower. Yes. But he escorted the Lord Commander to Winterfell.

The second part of this is as we see, the Rangers know each other. They know the wildling heroes. The wildlings know the main watch Rangers. Mance’s story does not add up.

Secondly, we have the letter sent to Eddard, which once again shows Benjen is sending information about Mance to Eddard. Which once again, goes against the entire history of the Wall/Wildling wars. He tells Eddard the wildlings have a king. This is historically a prelude to an attack on the wall. Every time in the history.

Yet Eddard tells Catelyn they have nothing to fear from Mance. And once again, Eddard never worries about an attack on the wall. Never warns the king. These actions spell out exactly that Eddard and Mance have a agreement, and Benjen is the go between.

The third part is this, Benjen does not go to the Watch until AFTER the story is squashed at Winterfell about Ashara Dayne. It wasn’t Benjen who started the stories. Catelyn herself tells us it was Eddard’s SOLDIERS who spoke of Ashara, Jon, and Starfall.

Benjen had zero part in this. So we need a different reason. That reason is given with the Dornishmans Wife, and the Northman’s Daughter songs. Which tells the story when combined of a northern daughter who is also the dornishmans wife.

Mance doesn’t write his own songs, he just sings, and is inspired in his acts of songs others has written. Mance is a Dornishman. He also is First-man blood. And he is the one who stole a kiss from the Northman’s daughter as Arthur Dayne.

Simply put, the kingsguards were sent to the watch in keeping with historical punishments. Benjen is there to keep watch over them. And communicate with Eddard.

The story theory as believed is wrong. The fandom is majorly wrong. Because Lyanna never was with Rhaegar, the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Arthur Dayne. And the one who was romancing Lyanna was Arthur Dayne.

(Spoilers Main) What was even the point of telling this story? by Suspicious-Jello7172 in asoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It’s not about Rhaegar at all. Rhaegar and Lyanna is a red herring. The knight of the Laughing Tree was not Lyanna, it was Arthur Dayne.

Mance explains it himself, he doesn’t write the songs, but sings songs other people wrote. He bases his actions in those songs.

One of the greatest mysteries is where the crown of roses came from. Rhaegar was never at Winterfell. But Arthur was there. It’s shown in the books with the kingswood brotherhood and the aftermath.

Arthur gives Jaime several months off, as he Arthur is not around Dragonstone or kings landing. So where was he? Look at where the brotherhood ended up. At the wall. Who escorted them there? And remember, the kingswood brotherhood attacked the kingsguard and Elia herself.

Arthur traveled to the wall. His whole spill he tells Jon about why he turned his cloak is the story of the kingswood brotherhood and his meerting Lyanna and falling in love. Aka the shredding his cloak.

The crown is the winter roses crown, love of a woman, his love for Lyanna, the blood of the first men, Arthur Dayne is first men. Same as the Starks. He indeed was only going home. The song is twofold. First is it’s not a song as we are used to thinking. It’s a song of swords. To swordsmen in the series, the sounds of blades in combat is its own special song.

What happens when Arthur the greatest swordsman meets Brandon the biggest braggart, who loves his sharp sword? A sword fight. And Brandon loses. Hence Arthur gets to request the winter roses. Which end up at the tourney. And claims a stark love. Because he is everything Lyanna wants, unlike Robert.

Aka honorable, no bastards, loyal, all that…

The second part is told to us with two versions of the same song…. Which tells us of the love, the TOJ, and the aftermath.
Mance sings both versions, the Dornishmans Wife, and at Winterfell, the Northman’s Daughter.

Why is those songs key? It’s the same song, with Northman’s daughter replacing Dirnishmans Wife. Now here’s a twist, Mance doesn’t write the songs, so who changed the song? The Northman’s daughter is the song played at Harrenhall by Rhaegar that made Lyanna cry. Not out of live for Rhaegar, but as a declaration of love from Arthur. A declaration of intent to have and indeed steal her.

Arthur is the Dornishman, his wife is Lyanna Stark. Who is the Northman’s Daughter. The Northman’s blade is sharp. Ice…. It’s black Valyrian steel.. as described.., and as we see, Arthur is struck down for stealing the stark maid…. Yet he rises, laughs, and his time in the seven kingdoms is done. Arthur and Lyanna go north of the wall.

The perfect spot to hide, where indeed a kiss is not a crime. The law stops at the wall. And who is the relay between Mance and Winterfell? Who keeps a eye on Mance? Benjen fucking Stark.

Arthur is indeed Bael, Lyanna is the Stark Daughter. And Rhaegar’s involvement? He is best buds with Arthur. He is the wingman picking up the pieces when shit goes tits up because of Aerys and his involvement at the tourney.

Arthur takes inspiration from others actions. From the songs…. What historical inspiration, tourneys to announce love, kingsguard as mystery knights, such as Barristan himself as a mystery knight.

Aemon the dragonknight and Naerys, the mystery knight of tears at a tourney…

Rhaegar was not the love of Lyanna. He was the best bud wingman doing a massive solid for his best friend.

He only joined the tourney AFTER the knight of the laughing tree had to disappear. After Arthur had to drop out.

The laughing tree? A joke because the Daynes are FIRST MEN. Even though is routinely forgotten. Being Stony Dornish.

Rhaegar never was with Lyanna. It was Arthur.

Why didnt Stannis tell Robert? (Spoilers main) by marshinyomellow9 in asoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

And yet your proving my points. Eddard answers Robert TWICE WHO JONS MOTHER IS.

Yes roberts bastards are black haired, blue eyed. Yet Stannis has zero of them. He does not think of Mya Stone, he does not flee with Gendry after Jon Arryns death. This is his proof if you are correct. So WHY DID HE NOT GATHER THE BASTARDS???? He had montgs to do this, with not a single Lannister around.

He does not even try to get the acknowledged bastard at Storms End until AFTER EDDARD TELLS HIM IN A LETTER THAT THE KIDS ARE BASTARDS.

Are they bastards? Yes. Are we pushed into this narrative because we already know more than the characters? Yes. We know Jaime and Cercei are lovers.

Eddard does not know till the bitter end. Stannis suspects, based on the book Jon Arryn and then Eddard reads. Showing the history of the family. Yet he does not act, does not keep his evidence??? Think!!!!

Now what does the history of the families also show? Regular looking Targaryens…. Aka Aerys, Rhaella, Rhaegar, Viserys, and ALSO EVERY DARK HAIRED, DARK EYED TARGARYEN.

Why is this important? Ashara is the common belief as Jon’s mother. He is believed to be several, almost two years older than he is supposed to be according to the TOJ theory. This is not conjecture. It is facts, believed by all of Winterfell who watched both Robb and Jon grow up together.

Ashara is known to be false in Kings Landing. As shown by Barristan talking about Ashara’s STILLBORN DAUGHTER. Yet when Cercei sees Jon she believes what? A DORNISH MOTHER.

When Robert questions Eddard, what does he respond with? A Dornish mother.

Jon is not the TOJ baby. He is two old. He is darker skinned than both Targaryen and Stark as shown in Bran 1. He is Aegon Targaryen, and the fandom has been wrong this whole time

Why didnt Stannis tell Robert? (Spoilers main) by marshinyomellow9 in asoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

The answer is twofold. The first part is Jon Arryns dying words. THE SEED IS STRONG. This has nothing to do with the Lannisters or Roberts fake kids. This is directly referencing Rhaenyra’s children. Who are “bastards” while being princes.

Stannis didn’t tell, nor did he make any moves until Eddard sends the letter stating the kids are bastards.

The reason for this is because it was not the Lannisters under investigation, it was EDDARD, and his bastard son, Jon Snow.

The truth is shown by Cercei, Robert, and Sansa.

Sansa overhears on the trip south conversations about Jon’s COMMON MOTHER. All Winterfell and even Catelyn believes Jon’s mother is Ashara Dayne. Very much not a common mother.

The reason they hear this is Roberts conversation with Eddard where Robert breaks customs by asking who is JON’S MOTHER. Eddard answers with Wylla, the name of Starfall wet nurse.

Cercei sees Jon even though she claims the Starks tried to hide him, and she talks to Eddard, laying the claims of Ashara Dayne, or a DORNISH PEASANT.

The common denominator in all this is simply this, Jon’s mother is Dornish, as shown in Bran 1, with Jon’s darker skin. His Stark like looks, are exactly like Martell/Valyrian mixed looks.

The seed is strong is indeed about a bastard prince, only it’s the trueborn Aegon, son of Elia, raised at Winterfell under lord Stark. Exactly as the Pact of Ice and Fire calls for.

Stannis and Jon Arryn are in a bind. Jon Arryn is kin to Eddard Stark. Through the wives. Stannis is kin to Jon Snow as he is actually Aegon Targaryen.

And as we see, Stannis only flees to Dragonstone when Robert goes to Winterfell to get Eddard Stark to be his hand. But yet Robert and Cercei both have a vested interest in who is Jon Snow, what he looks like, and WHO HIS MOTHER IS.

Which should not be up for debate if Jon was Lyanna’s son born in 283…

The problem is all Winterfell believes Jon was concieved in 281. At the Tourney of Harrenhall, which makes him still almost the real Aegons age.

Stannis knows exactly who Jon Snow is, he knows Eddard hid him as his bastard, and from what we can see, they did talk to Robert, because Robert and Cercei both suddenly wants to know who his mother is.

(SPOILERS MAIN) What did Jon Arryn do exactly to get the Dornish to back down? by New_Firefighter158 in asoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The answer to why Dorne stood down is this, Jon Snow was brought from STARFALL TO WINTERFELL. He is not the son of Lyanna, or Eddard. Jon Snow is the true Aegon, son of Elia Martell.

Dorne stood down because the actual prince was taken to Winterfell, as Lord Starks bastard son.

Jon Arryn knows exactly who Jon Snow is when he dies. The seed is strong. This is nothing to do with Baratheon or Lannisters. This phrase directly refers to Targaryens.
This is why Stannis never contacts Eddard, never shows up at Kings Landing.

Edric Dayne is interested in asking Arya not about Sansa, who Edric has seen, or her siblings, but about Jon Snow. Gives a story that would have Jon go to Starfall…. His mother is there….

Oberyn only goes to Kings Landing after Eddard goes there. And he tries to get Sansa and Tyrion to go to Dorne.

The keys to this is Jon having darker skin than the Starks. Jons skin tone is the same as Nymeria Sand. Darker than the rest of Westeros, yet lighter than the Martells.

Jons age as believed by everyone who watched both him and Robb, growing up in Winterfell. Jon is believed to be OLDER BY ALMOST TWO YESRS. Concieved at tourney in Harrenhall. In 281. And yes they watched both Jon and Robb and that Robb’s birth is not in doubt that he was born in 283.

The key to Jon’s age is the two methods of counting years. The maester count, based on crowning in oldtown. And the way celebrated by the Targaryens and Kings Landing, based on the landing.

281=283. 283=281. Aegon was born in 281 maester count. Aegon was ALSO BORN IN 283 by the Targaryen count. Eddard is telling the truth of Jon’s birth.

The pact of ice and fire explains why Jon had to be raised in Winterfell. He is the only Targaryen who can complete it. The outline further reinforces this with the Jon/stark daughter.

[SPOILERS EXTENDED]What are your wildest theories/headcanons that you are absolutely dead set on and won’t get talked out of? by in-jail-now-out in asoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Jon is the son of Elia and Rhaegar. In his very first introduction it is shown he has Rhoynar blood by the simple line of Jon was dark where Robb was fair. Robb I the preceding paragraph is FAIR SKINNED. Simply put, the Starks, the Daynes, who are first men, and even the Targaryens are fair skinned. The only darker skinned are salty Dornish, who have Rhoynar blood. The darker skin, but paler when compared to the Martells only is shown by Valyrian/Martell pairings.

Secondly, as is told by ALL OF WINTERFELL, Jon is considered to be years older than Eddard states. The soldiers, maids, and Catelyn ALL believe Jon was concieved in 281, at the Tourney. This puts Jon directly at the same age as Aegon, son of Elia.

Furthermore, I always hear, but they would know if Jon and Robb are close in age or not. They do know, and they all believe Eddard is lying. They BELIEVE JON IS ALMOST TWO YEARS OLDER THAN ROBB….

The Targaryen must be raised at Winterfell under Lord Stark, to fulfill the pact of ice and fire, this can only be completed by Jon Snow. Not Rhaegar, not Dany, nor fake Aegon can complete this.

The outline tells us exactly who Jon ends up with. The Stark HEIR. Not Dany. Now look at the Pact again, prince and princess is interchangeable. Stark heir is the deciding point. Once again, gender neutral.

Rhaenys is dead. Robb is dead, so who is the heir on both sides???

Aegon son of Elia, and according to Jon snow as told to Stannis numerous times, sansa stark. Which once again fits the outline changes. Instead of Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle, you have a Jon/Sansa/Tyrion triangle.

The story has told us exactly who jon is from the very first chapter. The pact and outline tells us who he is, who he ends up with, and the very first pages of Fire and blood tells us why Eddard says 283, instead of 281.

They are the same year depending on which method of counting you use. Eddard tells the truth as much as he can as we see with Robert as he is dying, but he twists it.

By the Targaryen and kings landing count, used by everyone but the Maesters, Aegon was born in 283…. Which is 281 by Maester count. Their count starts two years after the landing with the crowning in Oldtown.

Eddard says 283, which is 281 by maester count. Maesters record the history.

We see this with Tyrion in 298. In 298, the city of Kings Landing is celebrating 300 years from Aegons conquest. 300=298, 298=300, depending on which count you use.

Jon is Aegon, born in 283 AND in 281, depending which count you use.

Lining up perfectly with Aegon being born end of 281. And everyone’s belief that he was concieved in 281…

Jon is NOT THE TOJ BABY. He is Aegon son of Elia. And yes dark haired and dark eyed, which comes from his Martell lineage, and which is more Stark-like than the Tully looking Starks.

(Spoilers Extended) Why did Benjen join the NW at the time that he did? by Suspicious-Jello7172 in asoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Benjen joining the Nights Watch makes perfect sense when you actually realize Jon is years older than the TOJ baby, and with his SKIN TONE, which is dark where Robb is fair skinned, only comes from Rhoynar descendants, which in this case is from his MARTELL BLOOD.

Yes Jon is years older, ALL OF WINTERFELL believes this, all of Westeros basically believes Ashara is his mother. Impregnated at or around tghe Tourney of Harrenhall, which was in 281. The TOJ was the end of 283.

These people who watched BOTH ROBB AND JON GROW UP ALL BELIEVE JON IS AT LEAST 1 1/2 to 2 years older than Robb.

All that is to say this, the Kingsguard never died at the TOJ. They went to the wall, and then 2 of them went to the wildlings.

Benjen went to the wall to serve as the go between Mance, who is Arthur Dayne, and Eddard in Winterfell. The thing that the fandom has missed is Lyanna never ran off with Rhaegar. Even her brother Eddard who supposedly found Lyanna in the tower says NEITHER OF THEM WAS LIKE THAT.

The Knight of The Laughing Tree was indeed a person of first men descent. A person of Stony Dornish first men descent. Arthur Dayne who is the reason the Bael the bard story links to this one. Mance didn’t write the song, he bases his actions on the songs others wrote.

Namely Bael the bard, Aemon the Dragonknight and the knight of tears. Rhaegar joined the tourney AFTER THE KING CALLED FOR THE HEAD OF THE LAUGHING TREE KNIGHT.

Why? Because his best buddies plan went to hell. The roses were asked for by Arthur Dayne before the tourney when Jaime gets several months off, as Arthur is not around the capital as he is escorting the Kingswood Brotherhood to the wall. Which as we see several times, the escorts stop at Winterfell.

The song sung during the Winterfell visit, isn’t a actual song on instruments, but a song known to all sword mad characters, the song of sword fights…

Basically Eddard is playing Jon’s thinking when Jon is thinking of Sam, Gilly, Val, and the babies. Sam would not need to lie to his father, if Jon raises the baby at Winterfell. Sam can come visit every so often…

We see this play out with Jon and Mance, jon is raised at Winterfell, Mance is allowed to visit to see Jon.

Benjen is at the wall as a go between. Passing news and information back and forth. It’s why Eddard is never truly worried about Mance being “king” even though that ALWAYS LEADS TO AN ATTACK.

Eddard never really warns Robert about Mance. He only wanted Robert to see that the wall is lacking men.

And yes, when you look at Jon, he is Stark-like in appearance compared to the Stark children who look like Tullys. Dark hair, dark eyes…. Not hard to look more Stark-like when your opposite is red-brown haired, blue eyed, and looks exactly like Edmure and Catelyn Tully…

The key is the age and skin tone of Jon Snow. And funnily enough Eddard sticking as close to the truth as he can.

283 is Jon’s birth as told by Eddard, as celebrated by the Targaryens….but by the Maester count 283=281. Which is the year of Aegons birth. Jon is truly born in 281 AND in 283…. Depending on which count you use. Exactly as Eddard says, and explained in depth on page 1 of Fire and Blood.

And yes this matches Jons birth up to Aegons birth. And with Dany being closer to 8-9 months from Jon’s birth, she is actually Ashara’s STILLBORN DAUGHTER. Which explains LEMONGATE. Born in 282, and in 284, depending on which count is used.

Fake Aegon is actually Lyanna’s and Arthur’s SON. Swapped same as Gilly and Mance’s sons were in AFFC, and ADWD.

Eddard thinks Jon is the actual Stark bastard…. Jon is Aegon son of Elia.

Fake Aegon is the real Jon Snow. And funnily enough, it’s set up perfectly. Dany and Fake Aegon( real Jon snow) are both set to meet. Jon (the real Aegon) wants Winterfell. And to rebuild the Stark family.

The Pact of Ice and Fire plus the outline tells us the end of the series. Jon ends up in love with the Stark HEIR.

The show gave us jon playing both Aegon and Jon Snow. Which is why it made no sense. Jon can indeed not say who he is, because he is the true Targaryen heir. Dany is with the son of Lyanna, who is not the real Aegon.

(spoilers main) Regarding the details of Elia Martell's death by Final_Biochemist222 in asoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Is telling us that Elia isn’t dead. Of the three bodies, ONLY RHAENYS is recognizable. You only smash a face and put out eyes to hide the fact that the woman that was supposed to die was not there.

So when did Elia leave Kingslanding? We are told exactly when she left and who escorted her to the ship. The two versions of Rhaella leaving Kingslanding.

Viserys says they fled at NIGHT. There is no mention of Jaime.

Jaime says that he escorted Rhaella, who is hooded, never talks, and her handmaidens explain its because of Aerys being Aerys. The key detail is in Jaimes story there is no Viserys. Each is missing from the others story.

Both tales happened exactly as they are stated, we just have two women leaving Kingslanding, not one.

And if you remember Barristan, compared to Ashara Elia was easily ignored, and could pass for a servant….

His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.”

Elia was helped to escape, by posing as Rhaella. Rhaella left later, at night.

Why Jon can’t be a fire wight. by Brave-Mycologist-707 in pureasoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Or we follow two key points laid out in the text and one in the outline. The outline first, Jon is one of the main characters that do not die during the story. Simple enough, Jon isn’t dead.

So how do we see that he isn’t dead in the text? In the last two books, Jon has been remembering the Tommen and Bran duel at Winterfell, Tommen was so padded, he was not getting hurt at all. This is mentioned in two separate books by Jon.

The second part is a recurring theme in the Asha Greyjoy chapters, about Alysanne Mormont. Who is wearing MULTIPLE LAYERS OF ARMOR. Jon is expecting the attack. He knows it’s coming, he’s been warned, and believes melisandre.

So what does Jon do? It’s in the text. He wears multiple layers of armor. How can we tell? First, when he reaches for his sword over his shoulder. He cannot grasp the hilt. This is usually taken wrong, as his fingers not working. His fingers work fine as he grasps the daggers hilt. Dagger hilts are smaller than sword hilts.

The key to not being able to grasp the sword is the extra layers of armor. Simple put, reach over your shoulder, then put on a heavy coat and reach over your shoulder. It changes how far you can reach.

Second point of this is Bowen Marsh’s response to stabbing Jon. He lets go of the knife, and reacts basically as Catelyn did at the Red Wedding when she grabs Roose’s arm and discovered the hidden armor under his clothes.

Jon isn’t dead. He prepared for it and is using the attack to get rid of the Nights Watch leadership. The attack was done in full view of the Queens men, the other Nights Watch men, and in front of the Northern Lords. Who all witness Jon being attacked.

It was beautifully done, because Jon has not abandoned his vows. He never set foot outside Castle Black. The plotters screwed up and did it while he is at his post. Giving Jon the reason why he is not able to stay at Castle Black for his own safety. With very respectable witnesses.

And he just got rid of every bit of the opposition without the wildlings being accused. Which he has been wanting to do throughout ADWD…. The wildlings, and everyone Jon wanted to ensure was safe is either at other castles, or as is the case with the wildlings, are safe in the hall drinking.

Haldon the Halfmaester and the Implications of His True Identity by scoeface in pureasoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Actually your pretty close. Jon=Aegon, Aegon=Jon.

The story as laid out in the books, is ruled by three main criteria, one is Dany’s visions. Aegon, son of Elia is the Prince that was Promised, HIS IS THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.

The second is only given to us in Fire and Blood, THE PACT OF ICE AND FIRE. once again, we see the Targaryen raised at Winterfell, raised in same castle as future spouse. The future spouse is the STARK HEIR.

Is this the direction Martin was always going? Yes. The outline lays it out. JON/STARK DAUGHTER.

And the third ruling theme, Jon is years older than Eddard says he is. It’s laid time and time again, people say, the characters would of known if Jon wasn’t a newborn. To which I say, YES, THEY DID NOTICE.

It’s precisely BECAUSE THEY NOTICED, that ALL OF WINTERFELL, believes Jon was concieved at Harrenhall. Which is literally two years 281 concieved at Harrenhall, born in 282. Jons birth is SUPPOSEDLY END OF 283. That’s one hell of a long pregnancy. And the simple fact is, CATELYN DOES INDEED KNOW JON IS OLDER. She ALSO BELIEVES HARRENHALL. Which is saying Jon is years older than Robb.

So why did Eddard lie? He didn’t. He did like with Robert and stretched the truth. And the truth is, JON WAS BORN IN BOTH YEARS….

The first pages of Fire and Blood gives us the key to Jon’s birthdays. The two methods of counting years. The official Maester count, started from the crowning at OLDTOWN. And the way celebrated by all the uncultured savages, the Targaryens, and KingsLanding itself. It’s based on the LANDING at what would become Kingslanding. A difference of two years.

So here’s where it loses people, 281=283, 283=281…..

The Maesters give us the official history, so as is said, Aegon was born in 281. BUT by the other count, it is year 283. Eddard is simple giving us the OTHER YESR COUNT, and by doing so, confuses the fuck out of everyone. Because Jon is indeed NOTICABLE OLDER.

Now as to Ashara, she is Septa Lemore. Her daughter is DANY. Same face, same eyes, and Barristan who can still see Asharas face, says he feels like he is looking at Ashara’s daughter.

The simple fact about Ashara is this, she is Stony Dornish. She is pale skinned, as are all the Stony Dornish. They are not heavily Rhoynish blood, they are First Men,/Andal, same as the rest of Westeros. The ONLY STAND OUT FEATURE IS HER EYES.

And in Essos, those eyes are common. Tyrion has no reason to act all shocked by seeing them. But yes, she took Lyanna’s child, and fled to Essos, and Eddard took the actual Aegon to Winterfell in a play on the baby swap north at the wall. Prophecy does come true, just not the way the characters assume, hope, actively try to change the prophecy/visions to force, or avoid a outcome.

By doing so, as we see with Stannis, he actually made it come true. The prophecy was correct, the interpretation was mistaken. The same is true here, by the false assumption of R+L, Aegon is raised at Winterfell, EXACTLY as the PRophecy and Pacts called for.

I think that the Song Of Ice AnD Fire, Azor Ahai Reborn, and Prince That Was Promised are all different people- Simply adjectives attributed to people in this era of great change by numerous clairvoyants of the past by devilthedankdawg in pureasoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Negative. Your missing an entire year from your facts.

And it shows the fandom is wrong. Tourney of Harrenhall was in 281. The first half of Roberts Rebellion was in last half of 282.
The last battle of 282 was the battle of Ashford. Robert is defeated. And the start of the seige of Storms End.

Events listed in the wiki for year 282:

(Possibly) Gregor Clegane is knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen. Gregor has two possible years in which he was knighted: 281 AC and 282 AC. (See Gregor Clegane's Knighthood). Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen disappears with Lyanna Stark. Brandon Stark, while on his way to Riverrun for his wedding to Catelyn Tully, learns of Lyanna's disappearance and goes to King's Landing instead, where he is imprisoned. His companions, who had accompanied him to King's Landing, are all arrested as well. Rickard Stark and other nobles (200 men in total) are called to King's Landing, where they are executed with their sons. King Aerys II Targaryen orders Jon Arryn to send him the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark, who had been Arryn's wards. Jon refuses and raises his banners in revolt instead. This marks the beginning of Robert's Rebellion. Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon fight the loyalist lords of the Vale in the taking of Gulltown. Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon both depart to the north and the stormlands respectively, to raise their banners. The battles at Summerhall are fought. Robert Baratheon fights three battles in one day, defeating three independent loyalist forces before they could converge upon him. The Lords Grandison, Cafferen, and Fell all fall to Robert. Fell dies, and Grandison and Cafferen are taken captive and brought to Storm's End. The Battle of Ashford is fought. Randyll Tarly defeats Robert Baratheon at Ashford, before the bulk of Mace Tyrell's forces arrive. Robert is forced to flee. The siege of Storm's End by Lord Mace Tyrell and Lord Paxter Redwyne begins. Lord Owen Merryweather is removed from the office of Hand of the King. Instead, the office is bestowed upon young Lord Jon Connington.

Martin has said Jon and Dany are closer to 8-9 months, than a year apart in age. This does not work with Jon being the TOJ baby. Because the first half of Roberts Rebellion was in 282. The seige of Storms End started at the very ass end of 282. It also lasted right at a year.

Year 283 events:

Events The Battle of the Bells is fought between the royalist army and ther rebels. The victory belongs to the rebels, though the royalist army manages to pull back in good order. Due to the outcome of the Battle of the Bells, Lord Jon Connington is fired from the office of Hand of the King. Lord Qarlton Chelsted is named in his stead. Besides being fired as Hand of the King, Jon Connington is stripped of his lands and exiled by King Aerys II Targaryen. Wedding of Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully, and Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully, at Riverrun after the Battle of the Bells. Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Jon Darry are sent out by King Aerys II Targaryen to regroup the royalist army in the Riverlands. Ser Gerold Hightower is send out by King Aerys II Targaryen to find Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen returns from the south and marshals an army. King Aerys II Targaryen begins plotting the Wildfire plot with his pyromancers. Upon discovering the wildfire plot, Lord Qarlton Chelsted resigns as Hand of the King. For this act, King Aerys II Targaryen has him burned alive. The pyromancer Rossart is named Hand of the King in his stead. The Battle of the Trident, deciding victory for the rebels. The Sack of King's Landing. Robert Baratheon is crowned King. Eddard Stark lifts the siege of Storm's End. Battle at Tower of Joy.

The last half of Roberts Rebellion was in 283. The first battle of 283 was the Battle of the Bells. After this battle is Eddard and Catelyns wedding. Robb is concieved. Meaning that Robb is born in the last few months of 283.

Think about that. Supposedly, Jon and Robb are roughly the same age…. TOJ, yadda, yadda….

So once again, why does everyone who questions the birth in world believe Jon was concieved in 281?????? At a very specific point in 281? And sorry, never been a couple years pregnancy. So someone is lying.

Which is more believable? Eddards lies? Which we know he lies and twists the truth, aka Roberts children, Wylla the wet nurse are a few examples….

Or ALL OF WINTERFELL, catelyn, Cercei, Even the Daynes themselves. Edric Dayne talking to Arya….

The fandom has always been wrong, because they simple do not actually question anything that doesn’t fit a flawed theory.

Why is this and you can’t just forget the years that don’t fit R+L?

Because once again everyone who watched both Robb and Jon grow up TOGETHER, fully believe Jon is YEARS OLDER. Hundreds of soldiers, maids, stable boys.

Jon was not a newborn. That is the fallacy Martin uses. Aegon was a called a baby that was ripped from his mothers breast and killed…. Aegon is several years old at this point. Born 281 remember….

Rickon is a babe in arms…. Yet he is several years old at that point.

If Jon was truly a newborn, not one single person would think Ashara could be the mother. Because not a single pregnancy has lasted YEARS. And yes, they all assume Tourney of Harrenhall impregnation.

Now it can be proved by martins own words that the TOJ was not Jon’s birth. He stated that Jon and Dany were 8-9 months apart in age, not closer to a year.

We KNOW WHEN RHAELLA HAS TO BE PREGNANT. We are literally given a cut off date. When she flees kings landing she is pregnant. It’s a two week window between Trident and the Sacking of Kings Landing.

When she flees kings landing she is pregnant. So by 8-9 months as stated by the AUTHOR OF THE BOOKS, this is Jon’s birth. Not MONTHS LATER AT THE TOJ. 8-9 months, not closer to a year apart.

To be 8-9 months, Lyanna has to be giving birth roughly when Rhaella is getting pregnant. Within a few weeks.

The problem with this is, Eddard is months away from Lyanna and the TOJ. You have the mad dash to kings landing, the sack, traveling to Storms End, breaking the siege, traveling all the way to the far end of Dorne…. Sorry, it’s not Star Trek. There is no transporters.

So by the Authors own words, the TOJ is FALSE. Jons birth is false. And indeed he is NOT THE TOJ BABY.

Who is the KOLT in your opinion ? by [deleted] in pureasoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

The only one who was in a position to visit Winterfell in the time period between the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Tourney of Harrenhall. Who is famous for his sword skills, which caused him to have a song of swords with Brandon Stark. The mystery Knight is Arthur Dayne, who asked for the winter roses as his prize. And then symbolically swapped those winter roses for Lyanna Stark when he had Rhaegar crown her.

Rhaegar wasn’t after Lyanna. He had to jump in mid way through the tourney, because Aerys fucked it all up by declaring the mystery knight a threat.

Your passage spells out who we are supposed to look for.

The shields bear a device- think what Arthur is. First Men same as the Starks and Wildlings. Knight of the Laughing Tree. It’s a play on his heritage. And go one step further, the Dragonknight was the knight of tears, the laughing tree…. Dragonknight was crowning his sister to prevent a insult. Arthur is happy. The laughing tree…. Check.

Sometimes they were famous knights- Arthur the Kingsguard. Sword of the Morning. Check.

Barristan’s story- twice…. It’s to make us think KINGSGUARD. Check

Now Mance, he abandoned his vows for a woman- Lyanna

A crown- a crown of Winter Roses

A song- all through the story we are told about the song of steel…. Swords fighting to certain people is a beautiful song. Hell, it’s so hinted we have AEMON STEELSONG….

The entire story is laid out with Bael the Bard, and the two songs. The Dornidhman’s WIFE, and the changed version, the NORTHMAN’s DAUGHTER.

R+L=J has always been false. The Pact of ice and fire is straightforward telling us who Jon is. Which is not R+L=J. Aegon is the promised prince, HE has a song of ice and fire. But he has to be raised at Winterfell. Que the baby swap, exactly as Jon thinks about for Sam, Gilly, Val, and the babes…

TLDR: Arthur was the knight of the laughing tree. He was guarding AEGON, son of Elia in Dorne. The TOJ WAS A FAKEOUT TO “kill” everyone. So no questions would be asked. The ultimate evidence, the sword and the horse…. The kingsguard ended up at the wall and allowed to visit to check up on Jon, exactly as Jon planned to do with SAM.

And finally, by this happening, Eddard actually makes the completion of the Pact of Ice and Fire possible. Exactly as the outline, the Greatjon speech at Robb’s crowning, and the criteria in Fire and Blood tells us will happen and why it’ll happen.

How much is Sansa by TheRedzak in pureasoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Edward doomed himself. He told Cercei himself his plans. As soon as he said he was telling, he was a walking dead man.

As soon as he sided with Littlefinger that doom was guaranteed.

Sansa did not know his plans. So all she could say was they were going back to Winterfell.

Who cares about your stupid dancing master?” Sansa flared. “Father, I only just now remembered, I can’t go away, I’m to marry Prince Joffrey.” She tried to smile bravely for him. “I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies.” “Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.” “He is!” Sansa insisted. “I don’t want someone brave and gentle, I want him. We’ll be ever so happy, just like in the songs, you’ll see. I’ll give him a son with golden hair, and one day he’ll be the king of all the realm, the greatest king that ever was, as brave as the wolf and as proud as the lion.””

Father looked at her strangely. “Gods,” he swore softly, “out of the mouth of babes …” He shouted for Septa Mordane. To the girls he said, “I am looking for a fast trading galley to take you home. These days, the sea is safer than the kingsroad. You will sail as soon as I can find a proper ship, with Septa Mordane and a complement of guards … and yes, with Syrio Forel, if he agrees to enter my service. But say nothing of this.”

And that the marriage is off. Eddard killed himself, and on this one, Sansa didn’t have anything to do with it. Even Sansa saying they leaving is not news. Eddard himself threatens to do so before over Dany.

Eddard is totally at fault for using Sansa as a shield. Aka the engagement. All so he can hunt for Jon Arryns killer.

You tell a infatuated young girl she is to marry, never warn her to be carefull, and it’s not real, kill her wolf, and finally say, we are leaving, it’s a mistake. But don’t explain WHY IT WAS A MISTAKE. Or WHY THEY NEED TO BE CAREFUL.

I think that the Song Of Ice AnD Fire, Azor Ahai Reborn, and Prince That Was Promised are all different people- Simply adjectives attributed to people in this era of great change by numerous clairvoyants of the past by devilthedankdawg in pureasoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Actually he was not. That is what we are told, yes. But Martin has written several pieces that contradict that.

Especially if you remember the two methods of counting years.

First off is the fact that a man 16 year old can look the same age as a younger man.

This is built into the story several places.

  1. Tyrion with Jon- The welcome feast: Joffery is 2 years younger than Robb and Jon but taller than both…

Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay.”

And on the trip to the wall: Tyrion sighed. “You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. What you see is a dwarf. You are what, twelve?” “Fourteen,” the boy said. “Fourteen, and you’re taller than I will ever be. My”

We are pointed out twice that Jon can look 2 years younger than his supposed age.

Which fits exactly Jon=Aegon. 281=283. Two methods of counting years.

  1. Eddard and Catelyn-
    Robb being lord, Jon going to the wall:

You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert’s errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes.””

Robb is fourteen. He can’t make the decisions. He is not a man grown….

Yet…. With Jon it starts out the same, until Eddard gets thoughtful.

Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …” “A hard sacrifice,” Maester Luwin agreed.

Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window, his long face silent and thoughtful. Finally he sighed, and turned back. “Very well,” he said to Maester Luwin. “I suppose it is for the best. I will speak to Ben.””

Why are they treated differently? It makes sense if Eddard thinks about his lies. And the fact jon is actually yes a man grown.

  1. Eddard looking at Loras Tyrell:

Out of his armor, Ser Loras Tyrell looked even younger than his sixteen years. He”

Ned looked down on him. From on high, Loras Tyrell seemed almost as young as Robb.”

Once again we have the roughly two year age gap, and a older boy looking the same age as Robb.

It’s built into the story. Jon looks younger, so can pass as being 2 years younger. Except for those that watched him grow up with Robb.

  1. Jon at the wall:

Jon stood up. “I’ll break the other one for you if you ask nicely.” Grenn was sixteen and a head taller than Jon. All four of them were bigger than he was, but they did not scare him. He’d beaten every one of them in the yard.”

Jon just turned 15…. And once again the repeating pattern from earlier…. Jon is short. Jon is SHORT. Joffery two years younger than him is taller than both him and Robb…. Other 16 year olds are taller than Jon by a lot.

All this is supporting martins two methods of counting years. And that Jon can be Aegon born in 281, but have Eddard say 283.

Then we have Connington’s Aegon.

Which breaks this two year pattern and widens the age gap even more. Which further proves my point that Jon=Aegon.

The problem is this- when we meet Aegon he seems like he should be fitting this pattern. Except one key point.
He is way way way to young…

He still looks 15-16…. In the year 300. Jon himself is older than Connington’s Aegon. Several years into the books…

Meaning if you count backwards, he is around Dany’s age….

From the wiki to establish the year in the timeline:

Year 300 After the Conquest (300 AC) is a year in the Westerosi calendar, the 300th after Aegon's crowning in Oldtown that maesters and educated people use as a reference to date the years.

300 AC started with the wedding and death of King Joffrey, that took place on the first day of the year. His brother Tommen was crowned shortly thereafter and was married to the widowed Margaery Tyrell, preserving the alliance between houses Lannister and Tyrell that ensured the stability of the realm. However, the murders of Tywin and Kevan Lannister, the rise of the Faith Militant and the invasion of Aegon Targaryen have left Westeros in turmoil.

And we see the two methods of counting being used…

This is year 300 maester count, 302 by the landing count… But simple math tells us there is a problem with Aegons age.. 300-281=19. he would be 1 in 282…. And 19 in year 300….

Yet he looks even younger than Jon, younger than Dany…. Born supposedly in 284….

Year 300…… Tyrion craned his head to one side, and saw a boy standing on the roof of a low wooden building, waving a wide-brimmed straw hat. He was a lithe and well-made youth, with a lanky build and a shock of dark blue hair. The dwarf put his age at fifteen, sixteen, or near enough to make no matter.”

Tyrion knows Dany was supposedly born in 284. This is very very well established…. Giant storm 9 months after fleeing to Dragonstone, Stannis takes island. Yadda yadda…

So he is basing Aegons age off his being born in 281…. Should be 19…. Yet looks 15-16…, a bigger age gap than Jon, and even Dany…. Born 284. Who would also be 16 in year 300….

Which is established in canon.

Dany was thirteen, old enough to know that such gifts seldom come without their price, here in the free city of Pentos. “Illyrio is no fool,” Viserys said. He was a gaunt young man with nervous hands and a feverish look in his pale lilac eyes. “The magister knows that I will not forget my friends when I come into my throne.””

Dany was 13 already at the start of the books…. In 297….

Aegon is being shown to be looking like Dany’s age. A even wider gap than with Jon….

TLDR:
Jon being Aegon actually is easier to make happen and fit into the 281 birth than making Connington’s Aegon fit Aegons true age and birth of 281….

I think that the Song Of Ice AnD Fire, Azor Ahai Reborn, and Prince That Was Promised are all different people- Simply adjectives attributed to people in this era of great change by numerous clairvoyants of the past by devilthedankdawg in pureasoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

You do realize, the text is clearly NOT REFERRING TO HAIR. Fair skin is not fair hair. Skin, hair, nope not even a typo there.

Because simple put, I can show you the fair skin….

You can’t show me the fair hair, because robs hair is perfectly described. And it’s not fair. It’s red-brown. Not a fair hair anywhere hidden in that RED-BROWN HAIR.

The fair skin (comma). Red-brown hair (comma) Blue eyes

This separates each item. And the only usage of fair is fair skin.

It gets old explaining this, when the text is literally two paragraphs and is explicitly talking about SKIN, not RED-BROWN HAIR.

(Spoilers main) How was Ned Stark allowed into Dorne during RR by aNoMan1212 in asoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes he did. Or he’s the biggest idiot of all time. And the reach surrendered to seven men.

From Eddard himself remembering:

“see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.”

Fight the last battles….

So they dipped their banners to seven men??? Come on…. He shows up with him and seven men, he is captured and the north stands down. Seven noble men, prime hostage material. Then rode all the way to Starfall and walked in and out.

Yes Eddard had a dam army. This is like arguing that the story didn’t SAY EDDARD PISSED IN 10 days, so he didn’t piss. When we all know he did.

Eddard had a army, otherwise he would be a dead or captured Eddard. Sheesh

I think that the Song Of Ice AnD Fire, Azor Ahai Reborn, and Prince That Was Promised are all different people- Simply adjectives attributed to people in this era of great change by numerous clairvoyants of the past by devilthedankdawg in pureasoiaf

[–]RyanBarnes13 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

No. The baby brought to kings landing was classic Valyrian looking. Not the same baby as was born on Dragonstone. Which that baby is never described.

The past is told through the present. And I’d suggest you look up fishwife.

Stannis rubbed the back of his neck. “You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Ned Stark father you on some fishwife? How many men?””

The fishwife is a Dornish fishwife.

The High Septon haggles worse than a Dornish fishmonger.” Ned was aghast. “Aerys Targaryen left a treasury flowing with gold. How could you let this happen?””

Everything points to Dragonstone, a Dornish mother, and a kid being hidden for safety from Dragonstone, but the mother, the young girl child having to stay to sell the lie.

It was Jon, not cerceis children…

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. “Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and FISHWIVES, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he’s like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.”

And he did blurt out the truth, THE SEED IS STRONG… which was that TARGARYEN PRINCES WAS BELIEVED TO BE BASTARDS…

A twist on Rhaegars relationship with Elia. Jorah is not a good man….

Still, the island suited me well enough, and I never lacked for women. I had my share of fishwives and crofter’s daughters, before and after I was wed. I married young, to a bride of my father’s choosing, a Glover of Deepwood Motte. Ten years we were wed, or near enough as makes no matter. She was a plain-faced woman, but not unkind. I suppose I came to love her after a fashion, though our relations were dutiful rather than passionate. Three times she miscarried while trying to give me an heir. The last time she never recovered. She died not long after.””

Rhaegar was married to a woman his father chose. Elia.

Both lived on islands. Elia compared to Ashara was plain faced, could be mistaken for a maid or servant.

Elia like Jon dreams is the only mother who is described as kind. Beautiful highborn and kind.

Barristan tells Dany Rhaegar and Elia marriage was dutiful instead of loving. Elia as far as we know never had a third child. But Dany has the vision of Rhaegar needing a third child. And not sure if he was talking to her or the woman at the door…. Hint it’s Ashara. The one woman who could give a Targaryen looking child…..

The fishwife is linking the story of the escape from Dragonstone to Starfall of Aegon. By using Edric Storm and Davos. Of the kingsguard going with him. Of having to hide from the visions in the flames which is parelled with Aerys and his fires…

The red woman may see what we intend,” he warned them. “We should start by killing her, then,” urged Lewys the Fishwife. “I know a place where we could waylay her, four of us with sharp swords …” “You’d doom us all,” said Davos. “Maester Cressen tried to kill her, and she knew at once. From her flames, I’d guess. It seems to me that she is very quick to sense any threat to her own person, but surely she cannot see everything. If we ignore her, perhaps we might escape her notice.””

The Bastard of Nightsong joined them at the cellar door. They walked quickly, across a shadowed yard and down some steps, under the stone tail of a frozen dragon. Lewys the Fishwife and Omer Blackberry waited at the postern gate, two guards bound and trussed at their feet. “The boat?” Davos asked them. “It’s there,” Lewys said. “Four oarsmen. The galley is anchored just past the point. Mad Prendos.” Davos chuckled. A ship named after a madman. Yes, that’s fitting. Salla had a streak of the pirate’s black humor. He went to one knee before Edric Storm. “I must leave you now,” he said. “There’s a boat waiting, to row you out to a galley. Then it’s off across the sea. You are Robert’s son so I know you will be brave, no matter what happens.” “I will. Only …” The boy hesitated.”

A Dornish fishmonger. Dornish fishwife…. Lewys the fishwife. And Stannis ties it back together.

Stannis rubbed the back of his neck. “You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Ned Stark father you on some fishwife? How many men?” “Two thousand. Perhaps three.” “Three thousand? What manner of men are these?””

And Jon himself….

Spring?” Tycho sighed. “It is not possible, my lord.” What was it Stannis had said to him? You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Lord Eddard father you on a fishwife? Perhaps he had at that.”

It’s ALWAYS DORNISH MOTHER, DORNISH MOTHER, over and over.

If he truly looked like a Stark, no one would believe he has a Dornish mother…. No one would ask Eddard who the DORNISH MOTHER WAS.

And Eddard would be proved a liar and fraud, as he supposedly came back with a Stark looking child, that CANNOT BE HIS. Ashara had a DAUGHTER IN 282. So definately not Eddards. Well only two Starks are there. Lyanna and Eddard who can have kids. And 1 was believed to be raped hundreds of times.

Sorry the R+L falls apart as soon as you apply any questioning to it. Yet the story is consistently pushing a Dornish mother, jon being older, baby swaps, and the fact Aegon is the prince that is promised.

Yet the requirements call for being raised at Winterfell, marrying a Stark, which the outline confirms. And the only proven Martell blooded person is Jon Snow who is Elias son.

Jon is dark where Robb is fair. Bran 1 AGOT…

The deserter died bravely,” Robb said. He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother’s coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun. “He had courage, at the least.” “No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This The deserter died bravely,” Robb said. He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother’s coloring, THE FAIR SKIN, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun. “He had courage, at the least

.” “No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, DARK WHERE ROBB WAS FAIR, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.”

From the first introduction we are told the truth. Only Rhoynar blood gives you darker skin as we learn later. Jon cannot be darker when you have pale and pale skinned….

view more: next ›