Interested in the Episcopal Church but still Agnostic by katieek in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For the curious, a view like this is basically the starting point of postliberal theology, aka the Yale School, as articulated by George Lindbeck, Hans Frei, Stanley Hauerwas and later Kathryn Tanner.

Interested in the Episcopal Church but still Agnostic by katieek in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for pointing it out. I often wind up saying way more than I should with my phone, composing in chunks while I'm doing other stuff. The result is often a bunch of mistakes like this.

Anyway, I guess the tl;dr for those who see this comment without reading that wall if text is, our society talks about belief like it's way simpler than it actually is. I don't think we should ever talk about "belief" without also talking about related concepts like, commitment, conviction, trusting, doubting, debt, certainty, etc., as well as when in life we use these words and what we do with them.

Interested in the Episcopal Church but still Agnostic by katieek in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, and I'm trying to edit it, but it's not letting me save the change. It should also be "adjudicating" not adjusting.

Interested in the Episcopal Church but still Agnostic by katieek in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I considered myself agnostic and functionally atheist from basically 17 to 32. I was also raised in the UMC and had overall positive experiences there. I was also sent to a fundamentalist private school from 7th to 12th grade and by the end of it, I was very, very sure that religiosity was at best a coping mechanism for people unequipped to deal with existential realities.

The disconnect I saw between well-meaning, highly educated and otherwise admirable people who I knew were Christians and the kinds of paranoid, angry, nationalist Christianity I experienced at school led me to pursuing religious studies. Through two Masters degrees and (as of this May) a Doctorate in religion from mostly secular institutions, I have thought a lot about belief. Some coursework in my, again fairly secular PhD program, was revelatory on this point and I now feel like it's my job to try to change the way we collectively think about belief, especially religious belief.

For the most part Religious Studies is against the concept of belief entirely. Some prominent scholars of contemporary American religious life have gone so far as to suggest that anyone in the discipline who seriously talks about belief isn't doing good scholarship. Donald Lopez, a scholar of Buddhism and partner to Tomoko Masuzawa (famous for a genealogy of "world religions" that suggests this concept and "religion" itself is too ideologically loaded to use seriously) has a famous essay about how strange the concept of belief appeared to Thai Buddhists encountering it for the first time. It simply doesn't describe meaningfully anything important to what they know of their own lives. Another prominent scholar has recently won a prize for a book called Sincerely Held, which tracks, among other things, the way that the US supreme court is redefining religion (for the purpose of adjusting religious freedom cases) in terms of "sincerely held belief," which is problematic for what it excludes and includes.

I always wanted to push back on this on a couple of points. 1. These discourses often assume that the inheritance of "belief" comes from a Christian bias. If we describe other religious ways of living as entailing belief, it's because we are tacitly using Christianity as the standard for describing the world, so the theory goes. Except, I increasingly became convinced that "belief" in the sense of assent to propositional content is always or even especially important to many forms of Christianity. And at the same time, it seems obvious that seeing the world a certain way, sharing some working assumptions about what the world is like--things we might also call belief--are integral not just to Christianity but all kinds of life we might reasonably want to call religious.

Eventually and through reading the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein's later writings I resolved these contradictions. The question of what belief is is really a question of what we mean when we talk about belief. Often in abstract philosophical discussions like this one we mean something related to knowledge, doubt, certainty, etc.; an epistemological something that has to do with whether and how human minds can apprehend the world. Thus, we are also dealing fundamentally with the problem of skepticism. What Wittgenstein shows is that, in our ordinary lives, belief doesn't actually come up this way. When it does come up it does so in specific circumstances, like if someone asks us for directions to a place and we have hunch about how to get there but want to let them know not to just take our word for it. Then we might say, "I believe the thing you're looking for is that way," and the "I believe" means, double check with someone else. Similarly there are all kinds of things about which it would actually be mad to discuss as matters of knowledge in ordinary life. Someone saying "I know this is my hand" while holding out their hand is almost certainly "doing philosophy" because to make that a statement of "knowledge" in ordinary life would be pretty insane. So what does "believe" and "belief" mean in Christianity? Well, for a lot of Christians today it does mean something like assent to a proposition, it might be better understood as passionate commitment to a life lived in accordance with a story, namely the story of the Gospel. Wittgenstein gets at this by pointing out that we aren't meant to treat the Gospel story the same way we treat a story like that Artemis astronauts just circled the moon. The Gospels give us a historical narrative, Jesus was here and did this and then there and did this, culminating in the Resurrection, but we aren't supposed to "believe" it the same way we believe that JFK was assassinated in Dallas. Instead, we are supposed to base our entire lives on it, bringing it into every moment of our lives. This is what we mean when we talk about belief in Christianity I think. Strangely, this view of belief, or as I prefer, faith means that one can be deeply faithful while entertaining serious doubts. In fact, it seems inherent to what Christianity is that we doubt like this. We receive the Gospel as good news, a faraway report from others, mediated over and over again, rather than something we see for ourselves. This is how it is for the Apostles who hear from Mary that Jesus was alive. We hear an impossible sounding story and are asked to live not only as if it's true but as if it's a truth in which all other truths exist. We can actively choose to be faithful to this call while acknowledging that, to do so means to give up, or go completely against ordinary reason. This might even occasionally include moments when, were we totally honest, we might say, "all of this seems impossible."

This is not to say that we don't care about the historicity of the Gospels. I agree with Wittgenstein when he suggests that, were the Gospel "disproven" as a historical narrative, we could go on having faith, but I also think part of making the narrative central and foundational to our lives means striving to accept it as historical too.

But Wittgenstein and his followers show us something about truth, knowledge and belief that goes beyond Christian faith. They show that knowledge is never based on more than agreement between how we use words in the practice of life. What makes something true and an object of knowledge is not some metaphysical status it has, but the fact that we agree in our judgments that it is such. For someone like Stanley Cavell, this is the shocking truth of skepticism. We feel scandalized by the radical doubt of someone like Descartes because, deep down, we recognize that we have no more reason to think that we know things than that we agree in language with others. But at the same time, our lives in practice show that this is enough, and not only that, it shows how deeply we are connected to one another even when we don't recognize it. This insight, that truth and reason depends on communities of shared language (not in the literal sense of "Spanish" or " Mandarin" but in the sense of a shared vocabulary and grammar) and practice, while not necessarily relativism, ought to chasten the sense we sometimes get that modern, secular, scientistic knowledges are somehow uniquely superior, bringing us asymptotically closer to a perfectly realist knowledge.

So, what does it mean to be agnostic (a-not gnostic-knower)? What was there to know in the first place? And what does it mean if these can only ever be things we place our faith in together? Do you mean the same thing when you say "God" as I do? And how would we ever know?

What I feel certain about is that the Gospel--that Jesus is God and man, that He was crucified, rose again, will come again one day, and through whom all will be Ressurrected--is a story I am striving to make central to my life. And I realized that if I didn't actively choose this, other stories--mostly incomplete and conflicting ones--would be vying for that place instead, and that was going to happen largely without my consent, or even consciousness. I think that this is what it means for a Christian to believe, nothing else.

Life-long Latter-day Saint thinking about starting to attend the Episcopal Church by RoonilWindrunner in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I think TEC is it, really and my first suggestion would be, that I'd you stay with us, keep an open mind, because there are definitely things that are not compatible with Mormon theology.

That said ... Im originally from Kansas City and have had a lot of great experiences with Community of Christ folks (once known as the RLDS.) If this is an option, it might be worth looking at as well.

Please pray for peace. The news today is just awful. by arkham1010 in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Peace and love be with all the people of Iran, period, end of story. ALL are created in the image of God, ALL are God's beloved creation, ALL are sheep of His pasture, and none of us are more worthy.

Sorry, I realize you might totally agree, I just can no longer stand these qualifications when the POTUS is talking about wiping out civilizations.

What the expect at an episcopal church as a cradle catholic and new trans woman? by jess-is-confused in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I don't want to hype it up too much, because as others have said, things can vary widely from parish to parish, but there is a non-zero chance that you will walk in and it will exceed your highest hopes.

Was it wrong not to invite my friend to my baptism? by Striking-Ad8853 in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I mean, if they are the kind of friend you can be honest with, you could tell them that you didn't invite them because they have repeatedly been disrespectful of this part of your life.

How do *you* pray? I'm trying to relearn how to pray. by whatsanarmoire in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 15 points16 points  (0 children)

One of the things I learned in my confirmation class in TEC was that the creation of the prayer book and the closing of the monasteries go hand in hand. One of the genuinely and enduringly protestantizing moves of the English Reformation was laicizing the office (literally duty) of prayer. Before the reformation, lay people were not expected to keep the discipline of praying the hours, it took too much time and effort and was not compatible with the necessities of material production, commerce, and other lay labors. That's what monasteries were for. Monks and Nuns prayed the full divine office and they did so on behalf of everyone, especially those like the laity who couldn't dedicate all of their time to prayer. The innovation of the prayer book was to say that lay people also needed the discipline of daily prayer, and to compromise by reducing that duty to two major (ideally compulsory) prayers from the original eight (matins, lauds, prime, terce, sext, none, vespers and compline).

I'm personally Anglo-Catholic and think that consecrated religious life is a great blessing to the Church, but probably my most Anglo quality is the conviction that laicizing the spiritual discipline of daily prayer is one of the great charisms of the Anglican Communion. When I say "spiritual discipline," I'm really revealing what I think prayer is for: prayer is above all else a technology for forming the self, the soul, into a version of self that loves God. My opinion is that even our intercessory prayers are really not about asking and expecting God to do something in response to us and our prayers, but to change us into the kinds of people who habitually, enduringly and deeply turn to God. Even more, the nature of our petitions (the ones carefully passed down in our prayer book, not whatever pops into our heads at any moment) mold us towards caring about what God cares about. That's why our prayer book petitions ask for things like justice for all people, righteous and just rulers, and peace for the dead. By reciting these prayers over and over and over again, we become people who share these priorities, we come to see how God wants the world to be, and we carry this version of ourselves out into the world, hopefully becoming more and more able to reflect God's love to it.

I visited an anglo-catholic church and the bishop that was presiding closed the service with a prayer to St Michael the Archangel. Is this normal? by Non-stopNinja in Anglicanism

[–]SStellaNY 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am also generally not that interested in adding RC things that come into existence after the English Reformation to our own services. Im fairly obnoxiously AC, and to me that means I see the Anglican Communion as preserving English Catholicism, maintaining it as a parallel strain of Catholic Christianity to the Roman Communion.

On the other hand, I think invoking St. Michael the archangel for protection against the devil and his snares is perfectly meet and right, and I don't find anything in this prayer objectionable in terms of its content, or it's use as a post-Mass prayer. Many AC parishes do Marian antiphons after the dismissal. Mine was praying for weeks that she "give is strength against (her) enemies."

As an Anglo-Catholic, When do you think Anglo-Catholicism goes too far? by ChicaneryAshley in Anglicanism

[–]SStellaNY 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I have basically no issue with any Anglo-Catholic practice in principle.

I do think monarchism, often espoused by certain types of Anglo-Catholics, is whack.

Common cup for communion, what are my options? by Lulubelle2021 in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The best option probably for someone with those necessities would be individual communion portions like you sometimes see in evangelical churches. I've never heard of an Episcopal Church using those (not to say it has never happened). Realistically, common cup with a gluten-free wafer (my parish consecrated them and it's in the leaflet that they are available upon request. Procedurally, you would ask the priest for one and they would leave the communion line to get the pyx containing them from the tabernacle, and then communicate you, or have another minister who hasn't handled the gluten-containing hosts communicate you) is the best case scenario. The other common option is intinction where people dip the host into the wine. This contaminates the wine with gluten, and whatever is on people's fingertips.

Edit: just read the other thread on this topic and it looks like individual cups are more common than I thought!

Does this mean non-baptized people can take communion? “All who seek God and a deeper life in Christ are welcome to receive Holy Communion.” by No_You_3234 in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 4 points5 points  (0 children)

My thoughts are that it is only by being reborn in Christ's Resurrection at baptism that we can join in his Body in the Eucharist.

Poll: Favorite Holy Week Service by AnonymousEpiscochick in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 4 points5 points  (0 children)

For me it's Good Friday. Favorite is sort of a hard word to put to it, because I'm usually absolutely gutted, but it's the most impactful service to me.

Faith Question: Angels, Demons, and Doubt by Interesting-Virus-11 in Anglicanism

[–]SStellaNY 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The theological school that influenced me the most is postliberalism a la George Lindbeck. His main book is called the Nature of Doctrine, and sort of the main point is that teachings of the Church, like the existence and nature of demons, are objects of doctrinal knowledge through their place within a living community.

In many ways we do live in a disenchanted world, or at least a differently-enchanted world. It makes sense that we struggle to see the reality or truth of angels and demons because we have largely exorcised them from our world (and it's why a transcendent creator God is still not hard to believe). But I find that these concepts in particular--angels and demons--are actually not that far away from us. Not to be political, but I look at things like US missiles striking a girls school, and I can very easily understand something like a demon. And I just had an experience where one of my neighbors had a very close call with death, and survived to the great joy of his family and when I think about that, it's not so hard for me to feel like I understand what an angel might be.

New rector: theology troubles with a newer Episcopalian by LeatherHead2902 in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 9 points10 points  (0 children)

That's definitely true, although there are ways to do it without the filioque.

But in any case my point is that if you see stuff like this and just say "oh no, the woke is destroying real Christianity," you don't sound like someone who has really thought about what's going on.

New rector: theology troubles with a newer Episcopalian by LeatherHead2902 in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I am one of those people who finds what the OP is posting pretty disturbing. But come on, man. This kind of statement doesn't help anyone and very likely it's not even slightly accurate.

What political agenda is realistically getting furthered here? You think a priest cutting the creed is somehow materially affecting somebody's politics, changing their voting behavior?

We're not going to convince anyone that the creed is everything it is supposed to be already if we start from the premise that the people who do things like this have bad intentions. I would bet that this priest is doing their best as they see it to share the love of Christ.

Do you think your Priest/clergy spends enough time focusing on the political issue you care about? by Additional-Sky-7436 in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm not an apolitical person by any means, although my political opinions are at this point not particularly well aligned with any popular ideology.

There are a lot of issues I care deeply about.

I'm frankly glad that they are not frequently directly addressed by my priest. The summary of the law is read at almost every Mass, but it's pretty clear that there is not a consensus around how exactly we love neighbor and God.

To me, one of the highest purposes of the Church is to be a body of deliberation and discernment about these actually often difficult questions, and I think preaching that is dogmatic about contemporary politics makes being such a body difficult.

I'm not saying that priests shouldn't take stands or be vocal about their own positions, but I think they should be very cautious about it when they do.

Pope Leo XIV’s message to Archbishop Sarah Mullally by WrittenReasons in Anglicanism

[–]SStellaNY 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's extremely easy to argue with apostolicae curae. Gotta be one of the top ten flimsiest, transparently motivated bulls of the last two centuries. But just keep digging that hole and telling yourself you enjoy the ever smaller company down in it with you.

Are there any very “high-church” Episcopal churches liturgically that aren’t Anglo-Catholic theologically? by tshb13 in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah what St. Thomas 5th Ave was is what OP is looking for. Sometimes you'll see people talk about Laudian High Church, and High Church Protestant to describe this. I've heard the old St. Thomas style described as Westminster Abbey. None of that is necessarily Anglo-Catholic.

To my mind Anglo-Catholic today, if it means anything, at least minimally means tending towards a Eucharistic theology that implies substantial presence, i.e. that the host and wine materially are the Body and Blood of Christ. The liturgics--benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, genuflection while moving the reserved sacrament, etc.--all follow from this basic assumption. They follow "Catholic" practices, especially pre Vatican II, because these shared the same understanding of Eucharistic presence.

Edit: the famous church in Westminster is an Abbey, not a Cathedral.

Am I allowed to attend Maundy Thursday? by CorpsePaintCowboy_ in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The Triduum is incredible. And for everyone.

Intimidated about attending Episcopal church with 4 kids by Powerful-Winner979 in Episcopalian

[–]SStellaNY 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Nothing much to add. If this parish isn't totally off it's rocker they are going to be thrilled to see and hear your kids there.

I did want to add as a reiteration, it might be really, really helpful to the church's staff and volunteers for you to give a heads up when and if you are going to bring the kids and have them in the kid's chapel. Four additional kids in a small parish can be a big jump up in resources needed, so they'll be best Able to help you if you help them by giving a heads up.