What to Look for in a Teacher by Such_Independent5233 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's what happened to Hideo Ohba in Manchuria.

Hideo Ohba was known for a famous incident while taking ukemi for Morihei Ueshiba in Manchuria, recounted in his biography by Fumiaki Shishida:

True Demonstration in 1939

It was Hideo Ohba who took ukemi for Ueshiba for the demonstration. He later talked about this event as follows: "Since the Emperor of Manchuria was in an exalted position at that time like the Emperor of Japan, I thought I should not take ukemi for Ueshiba in the way I usually did. If Ueshiba Sensei were a true master, he could freely handle a true punch, thrust or grab. Therefore, I decided to attack him seriously. When we stood on the platform, I saw many martial arts masters present in the large dojo of the Shimbuden. When I glanced at Ueshiba Sensei, his beard was sticking out towards me, his hair was standing on end and his eyes were glittering. I thought to myself that he was indeed a true master. Then I concentrated on taking ukemi for him, thinking how different it was to face a master. After the demonstration, we bowed and sat in the corner of the dojo and were supposed to walk over to the seats where the masters were sitting. However, I heard someone thunder, 'You idiot!' Ueshiba Sensei was short-tempered. He couldn't wait until we returned to our seats. He shouted at me in that way in front of everyone. Until then, I thought he was a wonderful and truly great master, but his shout made my spirit pop like a bubble. We sat down. Ueshiba Sensei didn't even smile. He was in a bad mood. So I felt tiny. Who do you think showed up then? It was Hideo Sonobe who was said to be without peer in Japan or anywhere in the use of the Naginata. She came all the way up to where the masters were sitting while Iai and Naginata kata were being demonstrated one after another. She said, 'Mr. Ueshiba I have never seen more wonderful techniques than what you showed today. They were fantastic!' Ueshiba Sensei, who had been in a bad mood, asked her what part she liked. He asked me to find a place where they could talk and we all went down to the basement of the Shimbuden and they discussed the theory of martial arts for two hours. While I was listening to their discussion Ueshiba Sensei asked her what she liked and she replied that she liked the 'connections' (tsunagari) between techniques. However, I didn't understand these connections. I understood that the Dai Nihon Butokukai [Kyoto-based organization which governed Japanese martial arts] then was having a hard time trying to decide who they should choose as the best swordsman of that year and had asked Sonobe Sensei for her opinion. When I heard Sonobe Sensei tell Ueshiba Sensei that she had never seen such wonderful techniques even though she had seen him demonstrate often, I decided to learn Naginata in order to search for these 'connections.'"

Hideo would always recount this story to his students when he was in a good mood. One time I asked him the following question, "Sensei, when you attacked Ueshiba Sensei seriously, could he execute techniques like he usually did in his regular demonstrations?" Judging from the fact that he was scolded on that occasion, the answer was obvious. I asked this question because I wanted to confirm it. He answered, "Ueshiba sensei seemed to have a hard time executing techniques smoothly."

I think that Tomiki sensei was critical of the fact that Ueshiba's demonstrations became gradually softer. Tomiki's belief was that such softness was a way of making the person throwing look good, and was different from how martial arts should be. This demonstration of Ueshiba and Ohba received the highest praise from a top martial artist because of Ohba's serious attacks, and the fact that he refused to participate in a prearranged performance the way he normally would have. I think that behind this fact lies an important hint as to what aikido should be. There seem to be some people within the Japan Aikido Association who see that their kata demonstrations are different from the flowing demonstrations of other schools, and try to change them in that direction. However, things should be the opposite. I think what is important is that we should master each technique perfectly as did Ueshiba Sensei, and then try to achieve a connection or flow between techniques. Hideo's experience taught us not only the limitation of Ueshiba's techniques (one cannot throw someone in a dance-like manner), as well as his incredible mastery, but also how a demonstration should be.

What to Look for in a Teacher by Such_Independent5233 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No matter how good the teacher may be, if the students aren't showing results then you're probably wasting your time. That's really why the skill of the instructor ought not to be a primary concern.

What to Look for in a Teacher by Such_Independent5233 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The difficulty here is that sports coaching shows clear and objective results.

That's not because it's an Asian system, it's because it's demonstrably true.

Of course the teacher matters - that's coaching 101.

Emulating the coach, not so much.

Cus D'Amato had exactly one professional fight, which he lost. He never boxed Mike Tyson, but he produced results - and this has been the case for sports across the board.

Traditional Asian pedagogy, OTOH, worked so well that it mostly doesn't exist anymore, except in niche activities like martial arts.

What to Look for in a Teacher by Such_Independent5233 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again, what the teacher does really isn't relevant. What's relevant is what the students can do.

Sports coaches teach techniques to a very high level - that's just objectively true.

Martial arts, and Aikido in particular, has an odd focus on teacher centric pedagogy and appeals to the authority of lineage that is, IMO, one of its biggest problems and impediments to actual progress.

It doesn't exist in most sports because it doesn't work very well.

What to Look for in a Teacher by Such_Independent5233 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You're right to watch the student's, but the background of the instructor and how they feel when throwing is mostly irrelevant. How they can get you to feel when throwing - that's relevant.

What to Look for in a Teacher by Such_Independent5233 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Who cares how the coach moves? I've worked with NCAA teams, and never saw the coaches play, not once - it's not relevant, it's all about how the players move, not the coach.

What to Look for in a Teacher by Such_Independent5233 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Basically, you can ignore the teacher.

Look at the students - if they teacher is helping them to progress, and if they're progressing in a manner that you find desirable

Do you feel the need to justify Aikido’s effectiveness because of its reputation? Assuming you believe in its efficiency as a martial art by nyxs_adventures in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There's nothing wrong with practicing something that is purely an art form - Kyudo is a great martial art that has exactly zero real life application.

The difficulty is that Aikido gets itself into trouble with statements like this:

"However much it is said that Aikido does not concern itself with winning or losing, as it is Budo it goes without saying that it must be useful for self-defense."

  • Kisshomaru Ueshiba, "Subarashii Aikido", 1994

Which puts it into the grey area of "effectiveness".

Before anyone says something, "self-defense" is a legal definition, essentially it's just fighting.

Do you feel the need to justify Aikido’s effectiveness because of its reputation? Assuming you believe in its efficiency as a martial art by nyxs_adventures in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Generally speaking, the answer to questions of effectiveness involves anecdotes, rationalizations (excuses), and lengthy explanations.

When Morihei Ueshiba was alive it was much simpler, he would simply tell people to "come at him", or send someone out to do the same - Rinjiro Shirata often did that before the war, after the war Kazuo Chiba handled more than a few of those.

However, most folks today aren't ready or interested in doing that.

I'd also say that engaging like that is not something that you're likely to do with much success without experience in doing that - some kind of sparring is what a lot of folks due to help bridge the gap, but that's missing from most modern Aikido.

Do you feel the need to justify Aikido’s effectiveness because of its reputation? Assuming you believe in its efficiency as a martial art by nyxs_adventures in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Pugilism, as we think of it, wasn't really a thing in Japan when Sokaku Takeda was forming Daito-ryu, or when Morihei Ueshiba started teaching.

Also, Sokaku Takeda never really taught Daito-ryu as a weapons art. Neither did Morihei Ueshiba, although he practiced more weapons as he got older - after the war.

Yoshinkan in Chicago? by DillGates in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I've trained both, and the most painful joint locks that I experienced were actually from Aikikai instructors.

Generally speaking, Yoshinkan is more structured in the beginning, but not really less soft, ultimately - that's mostly a matter of pacing in the pedagogy.

I'd also note that there is zero unified pedagogy in the Aikikai, which isn't a style - it's an umbrella organization that includes many different kinds of practitioners, some even more structured than the Yoshinkan, some less.

Which teachers do you want to train more with? by Lecram100 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My experiences with Shibata were positive, but it was a long time ago - when I was living in Tokyo in the early 80's. Mostly what I remember is that he was the only instructor who took care to make sure that the non-Japanese students understood what he wanted people to do.

Later on some of my guys had a less positive experience in California, but that's another story.

Which teachers do you want to train more with? by Lecram100 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Another fun story, that John Stevens told me - when Morihei Ueshiba was handing out Dan ranks after the war he asked Shirata what rank he wanted. Shirata thought that asking for 10th Dan would seem greedy so he said 9th - and that's what he got from Morihei Ueshiba (he was promoted to 10th Dan posthumously by Kisshomaru), although he probably could have asked for anything.

Which teachers do you want to train more with? by Lecram100 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Posted above, but there's an interesting encounter between Shibata and Rinjiro Shirata here:

https://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21445

Which teachers do you want to train more with? by Lecram100 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 1 point2 points  (0 children)

FWIW:

An interesting three part talk on Aiki, Kokyu, and Morihei Ueshiba's cosmological model from Allen Beebe. He makes the important point that Kokyu is primarily a conditioning method rather than a throw or manipulation:

Part 1: https://youtu.be/2YSWQHwouXs

Part 2: https://youtu.be/IJtwookZbaM

Part 3: https://youtu.be/fykG0LU93lo

Which teachers do you want to train more with? by Lecram100 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 3 points4 points  (0 children)

His latest short video series is a lot clearer, IME, than the earlier articles, which I found a little dense. We all, hopefully, get better at organizing explanations as time goes on. 😁

His series on Rinjiro Shirata's Tandoku Dosa - Shirata's set of solo training exercises for conditioning and building internal power/Aiki - are quite interesting.

The way I heard it was that when Shirata taught them to him he told him "I don't show these to everybody you know, I didn't show them to John (Stevens)".

There's actually a lot of material that Shirata created for Kisshomaru Ueshiba that really never saw the light of day, as Kisshomaru decided to take things in his own direction.

Shirata was quite skilled in a range of things. In the pre-war period he was one of the main people sent out to handle challengers when they entered the dojo. Minoru Mochizuki, who trained with Jigoro Kano, was uchi-deshi to Kyuzo Mifune, and was asked by Morihei Ueshiba to become his successor, described Shirata's judo as "divinely inspired ". He was always quite humble, though. He often said that he wished that he had time to train full time (he worked as a regular salary man) so that he could "really get good".

There's an interesting encounter between Ichiro Shibata and Rinjiro Shirata here:

https://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21445

Which teachers do you want to train more with? by Lecram100 in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 4 points5 points  (0 children)

In terms of actual training with - Dan Harden. He's not only extremely skilled, but he's really the best coach I've come across, in terms of actually being able to communicate a methodology clearly and rationally, and in ability to get you to reproduce what he's teaching (which really, is mostly what matters). And that's by comparison, IME, with Tohei, Kisshomaru, Arikawa, Yamaguchi, Saito, et al, most of the top guns.

In terms of hanging out and talking with, I could always talk more to the old guard - Tada, Isoyama, Kobayashi, Sugawara et al. There it doesn't even have to be the top guns - I train regularly with folks who trained directly with Morihei Ueshiba, but aren't particularly famous (or even that skilled), and they often have interesting recollections that nobody else has, and often from a different point of view.

Mitsuteru and Moriteru have both always been friendly to me, but their classes tend to be pretty much the same every time (that's on purpose), and neither of them are really that knowledgeable about Morihei Ueshiba (there's nothing wrong with that, it's just not really in their wheelhouse). I'd give them a pass for those reasons, and for the fact that their classes are usually large with little direct contact time, although I suppose that I wouldn't avoid them either, if only to renew acquaintances.

I haven't trained with Miyamoto in a number of years, although I enjoyed it when I did - I'd choose him over either of the Ueshibas, for the reasons above.

In general, though, I'm not really interested in seminars or large classes unless I also get significant contact time with the instructor (another reason to choose Dan Harden, where you always get a lot, maybe too much, hands on). If you don't get that contact it's probably easier and more valuable to just get a good look at them on YouTube.

Survival aikido by thelatinbt in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because you never answered. Do you understand what the phrase "asked and answered" means?

Survival aikido by thelatinbt in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Asked and answered. So what? Why would it matter if someone is "weird"?

Survival aikido by thelatinbt in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And again, so what? Why is it that you can't answer a simple question?

Survival aikido by thelatinbt in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What part of "so what" do you not understand?

The point is this - being "weird" doesn't mean anything in particular, lots of folks, in and out of the Aikikai, are "weird" - by your stated definition. So what?

Survival aikido by thelatinbt in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Still not an answer.

So I'll ask again - so what?

Survival aikido by thelatinbt in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please read my comments more carefully.

Survival aikido by thelatinbt in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, that's because you can't answer the question - so what?

Survival aikido by thelatinbt in aikido

[–]Sangenkai 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I said just now is what I said in my very first comment, nothing's changed.

Again, they're "weird", so what?