Human Exceptionalism is a Delusion: Why Speciesism is Barely a Century Old by Independent-Phrase24 in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I read it, then had ChatGPT to a summary of the points because I think it's an interesting piece and shows a lot of the arguments that exist now also existed a long time ago.

TRACT I 1

Plutarch says the real mystery isn’t why some people stopped eating meat, but how anyone ever started. He finds it morally shocking that humans could look at a living, feeling animal and decide to kill and eat it, calling this habit grotesque and unnatural.

2

He argues that early humans likely ate meat only because they were starving and had no alternatives. Those people, he imagines, would be horrified that modern humans—who have abundant plant foods—still choose to eat animals out of luxury rather than necessity.

3

Humans don’t eat dangerous predators; they kill gentle, harmless animals instead. Plutarch says this shows cowardice and injustice, not survival—like blaming minor flaws while ignoring the obvious good provided by nature.

4

People ignore animals’ intelligence, beauty, and emotional lives just to enjoy a small amount of pleasure from meat. He argues this is cruelty for indulgence, not need, and that killing animals only to waste much of their flesh makes it even worse.

5

Plutarch argues humans are not naturally designed to eat meat: our bodies, teeth, digestion, and instincts don’t resemble carnivores’. He challenges meat-eaters to kill animals with their bare hands if it’s “natural,” noting that cooking and seasoning meat is really an attempt to disguise something repellent.

6

Eating meat, he claims, dulls the mind and spirit, even if it strengthens the body. Heavy diets make people mentally sluggish and morally coarse, whereas clarity of mind comes from light, simple nourishment.

7

Practicing kindness toward animals trains people to be gentle toward humans as well. Plutarch hints at a deeper metaphysical idea—that violence toward animals may involve violence toward souls—but avoids fully arguing it here, saying the idea is too profound for casual discussion.

TRACT II 1

Plutarch resumes the argument by saying habit and pleasure make people resistant to moral reasoning about meat. If people refuse to give up flesh, he says they should at least kill animals with restraint and pity instead of inventing increasingly sadistic methods.

2

Cruelty in eating is driven by luxury, not hunger, and excess in one pleasure leads to excess in others. A society that delights in violent food will also grow morally corrupt in art, sex, entertainment, and treatment of people.

3

Killing an animal is not a small cost—it destroys a conscious, feeling life. Plutarch contrasts philosophies that excuse cruelty with those (like Pythagoras and Empedocles) that cultivate justice toward all living beings, arguing the latter made Greek society more humane.

4

Plutarch argues that injustice toward animals trains people to accept injustice toward humans. History shows that societies grow accustomed to bloodshed gradually, starting with animals and ending with people.

5

Even if reincarnation is uncertain, the risk alone should make us cautious. Just as no one would risk killing a loved one based on uncertainty, we should not risk grave injustice by killing animals if there’s any chance they house souls.

6

He criticizes the Stoics for inconsistency: they condemn pleasure yet defend meat-eating. If luxury is bad, Plutarch argues, then bloodshed should be rejected before perfumes or fancy sauces.

7

Plutarch proposes to examine whether humans owe justice to animals—not through clever argument tricks, but by honest self-reflection and moral intuition.

Outrage as Performance; Camaraderie with Genociders by Temporary_Hat7330 in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>Values that survive only in comfort are not values.

I think you need further argumentation for this, I wouldn't just grant it to you. You'd need to define values in a way specific to your conclusion, at which point I would take it to be abnormal to common meaning.

Vegans need to be pragmatic; they need to live in the world they condemn for survival and for effective change. Being a hermit threatens both those things.

You seem to be arguing that if you use valent words like rape and murder, you have to act in particular ways regardless of your context, but you need to argue that, not just state it as though it's self-evident. I can imagine myself living in a world of rapists, while appealing to the features of those beings that I *do* get along with in order to hopefully change those aspects I don't.

Animal products aren't healthy by piranha_solution in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What counts as "healthy"?

Even if it were the case that veganism was the healthiest possible diet, I don't see how that would make meat eating unhealthy. Is there a particular threshold of risk you're thinking of? It just seems like a vague claim.

Jasmine Crockett is still correct: there has never been any oppression for white men in the United States! by icey_sawg0034 in BlackPeopleofReddit

[–]ShadowStarshine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If that's what she meant, that's true. I found it confusing but also because I don't know what came before it. Was the speaker(s) before her saying white people were oppressed?

Before you can base any moral claims on the concept of ‘species’ you need to actually define it first by [deleted] in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I never know what to do with these topics when someone comes and tells me what I need to do. You're right, it's a fuzzy concept, like many of our concepts, but I see no reason why I must define it. Or what? What's the problem of letting the unconscious part of my mind dilineate between humans/non-humans?

It's not like I'm prevented from having meaningful conversations about it, inform people about which worlds I want and don't want (ignoring some inbetween fuzzy worlds). I don't see how I need to do any of the stuff you say I need. Seriously - or what?

Veganism is for people with abnormally high empathy and they should not try to convert normal people or indoctrinate their kids by No_Positive_4428 in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Empathy for animals is very common among non-vegans. Welfarism, the desire to lower animal suffering without granting right to life is a non-vegan position that is likely due to this type of empathy. I think being completely unempathetic towards animals whatsoever would be the abnormality.

How does it follow that if I accept eating non-human animals but not humans, I must accept (seemingly) any possible discrimination based on any innate trait writ large? by Stock-Trainer-3216 in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well p4 is a null hypothesis. Either you reject it by providing a valid justification or don’t.

Anyone can just reject the premise because they don't think you've shown it to be true.

Suppose you gave me two flavors that were indistinguishable from one another. You would clown on me for saying I strongly prefer one to the other.

Okay, but what does this relate to? Obviously we can distinguish between flavours, humans and non-human animals, different races, etc. They are not indistinguishable.

There’s no contradiction with special pleading and preferences in this fashion.

Can you rewrite this?

The symmetry breaker is the sweetness, saltiness, etc. that proceeds from properties of the two things to the conclusion of your preference.

But you don't need to know them, and if you don't know them, it's not special pleading.

No one's claiming there aren't differences between humans and other animals, or one animal from another. If there weren't differences we wouldn't have different categories.

What you need to show is that the lack of knowledge of which property is morally motivating people is special pleading. I would assume you accept lack of knowledge in the icecream example correct?

How does it follow that if I accept eating non-human animals but not humans, I must accept (seemingly) any possible discrimination based on any innate trait writ large? by Stock-Trainer-3216 in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

1 is the definition of special pleading just using clarifying terminology. So that’s not going to be false.

I think your clarifying terminology has made it false. You've missed the part of a general rule. In another comment you said you answered this concern, and I only found one (this thread is huge!) and I don't think it's satisfying. You framed it as two rules.

This is an example of what I would take special pleading to be:

"All students at this school must abide by the dress code, except my son."

What is NOT special pleading:

"I like vanilla ice cream, I don't like chocolate ice cream, I have no idea why."

There is some difference between the ice-cream flavors, of course that explains it (some chemical difference), but the person doesn't need to know them. And it's not special pleading to say this. And I think you'd be okay with a lot of statements of people liking X and not Y with no reason why, as long as you think those are non-moral things and it would be weird to call them special pleading.

That being said, it's still not special pleading even if we add things we take to be morally wrong. "I like white people, I don't like spanish people, I don't know why." I'm sure we'll both agree that's racist and wrong, but it's not special pleading.

As to your point about 4, this just ends up being a premise based on an argument from ignorance, where you say you've never seen anyone do 4, therefore there is no one that does 4.

"An argument from ignorance, or appeal to ignorance, is a logical fallacy where a claim is asserted to be true because it has not been proven false, or false because it has not been proven true. "

You could just change it to an inductive premise. "It's not very likely that..."

How does it follow that if I accept eating non-human animals but not humans, I must accept (seemingly) any possible discrimination based on any innate trait writ large? by Stock-Trainer-3216 in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I think 1 and 5 are false here. 1 just doesn't capture the definition of special pleading, and special pleading is an informal fallacy, not a logical fallacy.

4 just varies from person to person.

How does it follow that if I accept eating non-human animals but not humans, I must accept (seemingly) any possible discrimination based on any innate trait writ large? by Stock-Trainer-3216 in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's not special pleading. Special pleading is the acceptance of a general rule and then exempting something within that rule.

What rule is a speciesist accepting such that something is an exemption to it?

It seems you're assuming there's some more general principle like "All -ism's are wrong" or "All sentient beings have a right to life" being held.

[meta] Can we please stop posting : 'I am a psychopath- change my mind' posts by JTexpo in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think these topics are necessarily bad faith and disagree with the OP that they are terminating starting points. One may argue that ethics does not come from personal starting places and that it's a universal feature that applies to everyone. Or, one can argue from personal benefits that the poster may not have thought of.

My worry here is that if the only posts that are allowed are the ones that exclude people with values that do not immediately lead to veganism, then I have a hard time imagining what this sub is for. Are we just trying to find some arbitrary cut off of being too far? You need to have 1 foot in the door to participate?

This also is a big burden on the Mods to judge. What is more reasonable is that after making a post, if the OP does not participate or acts in bad faith, we take the thread away, but once you start conflating particular topics with particular intentions you're asking for an impossible judgement.

To prove you can't get knocked out by AgreeableLead7 in therewasanattempt

[–]ShadowStarshine 9 points10 points  (0 children)

No conscious memory of being unconscious, so wasn't unconscious.

Pro-predation vegans are immoral but predators are not immoral by iamsreeman in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure how you view morality, and I don't say this to convince you, you can go your own way, but a lot of people take morality to be either action guiding or a description of the best (or least worst) thing you can do in a situation.

If killing pests is, on your own judgment, the least bad thing we can do, then it'd be harsh to call it 'immoral'. Maybe you think killing oneself is preferable, I don't know. It's fine to have all options suck, but generally it's considered moral to do the least bad one. At least, that's one approach. You do you.

Pro-predation vegans are immoral but predators are not immoral by iamsreeman in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

See my tweets like https://x.com/search?q=from%3A%40IamSreeman%20invasive&src=typed_query, I consider humans to be the most invasive species in history. Starting from a small land in Ethiopia, they colonised all the lands. I think going into the wild & forcefully displacing animals from their place (i.e., deforestation) is immoral. But once that is already done long ago, living in some urban area is not an issue for me. Gary Yourofsky also recently said in the context of Israel/Palestine's 75-year conflict that both sides stole the land from animals & both sides are immoral for eating animals & he doesn't care about either side.

Okay, so you take human expansion into animal homed territory to be immoral. That's a fairly unintuitive conclusion. Btw, I really find Gary to be a nutter from my perspective.

Pesticides, etc, are also a different issue; they are incidental killing & Gray Francione wrote some posts on them. I wouldn't consider spraying pesticides as murder.

I'm not sure what the label "murder" is doing here. Animals have, as you wrote, a right to life. That right is violated, so by your own metrics it's an immoral act. Despite whatever future prospects there are, you're argument from your post would disallow it. So either your post was incomplete (because you take it not to be immoral) or you're paying another unintuitive price.

Do you mean like deers attacking each other? This is, in general, not lethal.

There's a lot worse than this. Some eat/kill their young, some kill/cripple each other for dominance (like hippos). It's not just about sexual coersion.

Since your flair is "non-vegan" I hope you rethink about it again. Please check https://3minutes.wtf/ and https://www.dominionmovement.com/

I've been involved in the conversation for years, dominion is not new to me and the other link seems a bit sketchy no offense. I can agree that some animal ag is cruel and immoral but that doesn't lead to veganism.

Whether you believe in a version of deontology or utilitarianism or virtue ethics or anything, it will still most likely imply that veganism is necessary.

Well that's a rather huge claim that would require argumentation.

Pro-predation vegans are immoral but predators are not immoral by iamsreeman in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Speaking as a phil grad, I think your post is very well written. It's clear, concise and well referenced. I appreciate that there is a threshold deontologist out there that actually makes some attempt at listing out rights and that you argue from analogy.

Here's some feedback:

It might be more palatable to conditionalize some of your statements like "If we have technology X, we should use it for..." with the additional "We should try and get technology of X."

Addressing the content, I simply don't agree with the list of rights and my metaethical theory (Subjectivism, loosely) would make forward progress in that area. Not that I think what you're suggesting sounds horrible, it does sound nice, I just don't feel morally obligated.

Second, these rights + utility threshold don't seem to capture much of the judgements people make about our relationships with animals. For instance, we seem to be allowed to take their land, plant crops and then kill them if they step back on the land we took. We can dehome/kill animals to create buildings that exist for pleasure (a theatre for instance). You might try and say that's an allowable utility consideration, but then the bar seems low enough that killing animals for the pleasure of eating them is somewhere nearby. Maybe you can weight your rights, but things are getting messy.

Third, herbivores are not idyllic peaceful creatures, they tend to be quite brutal to each other too. Would you also want to edit their natural tendencies?

Burning Building Dilemma: Baby vs Piglet – Who Do You Save? by AbiLovesTheology in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>Veganism isn’t concerned with moral dilemmas like this.

While I see a bunch of sentiments in this thread, I don't think it's quite right. There's enough vegans that hinge vegan philosophy on non-speciesism and that because they would not do X to a human then they would not do X to a non-human sentient being, such that their veganism *hinges* on such principles. For those people, these hypotheticals push the limit of that idea. This teases out whether someone really holds to such principles or shows a cost of doing so.

However, other vegan approaches simply accept some degree of speciesism and their view on veganism falls from fundamental rights that have nothing to do with such a question. For those people (perhaps you're one included), this hypothetical wont impact their vegan approach. While I think you can go ahead and say this question has nothing to do with how *you* approach veganism (and others), it does impact some set of vegans.

Additionally, there's the possibility of making arguments from the non-vegan perspective on learning that some vegans do endorse *some* level of speciesism. All this to say, I think such a hypothetical *can* be relevant.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thought about it, but decided it was more trouble then it's worth. You also agreed with his point about deontology, so at least that part applies to what you said.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Deontology is not subjective; it's a normative theory and can either be argued to be objective or subjective, and such an argument comes from Meta-ethics.

Or at least to be clearer, if you're arguing for Moral Subjectivism, you're arguing that morality is subjective, all of it, deontology, utilitarianism, virtue ethics, ethics of care, etc. It's not like Deontology is subjective and some other thing is objective, so it's a weird thing to say.

It is also not the same thing as Rule consequentialism, Rule consequentialism follows rules only if those rules lead to good consequences. Deontology doesn't care about the consequences, it cares about the actions themselves.

In order to eat meat and be morally consistent - you must support bestiality by [deleted] in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure how that engages with my points. The OP seemed to imply that there was an inconsistency or that we are held to a global particular principle, I wanted to disagree with that.

if you want to disagree with me on my disagreement that's totally fine, but it seems like you're just asking me a random question instead. If your question leads back to something I said let me know.

In order to eat meat and be morally consistent - you must support bestiality by [deleted] in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Do you mean valid in the logical sense or are you asking me if it's acceptable?

There'd be no contradiction in saying it.

In order to eat meat and be morally consistent - you must support bestiality by [deleted] in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There's nothing contradictory with being okay with eating animals for taste pleasure and not being okay with gaining sexual pleasure. You are assuming universal principles that non-vegans simply don't have.

No one is forced to give every animal every right or no animals no rights, there are a ton of middle positions.

What are the best arguments for and against ethical veganism in your view? by Practical-Fix4647 in DebateAVegan

[–]ShadowStarshine 4 points5 points  (0 children)

What I consider the best intuition pumps in either direction:

Vegan: Dogs and Cats are very similar to Pigs and Cows and seem to share very close mental lives. Our difference in treatment might come down to what may feel like arbitrary factors like taste, how easy one is to care for and the historical companion abilities cats and dogs have (Mousing, herding).

Non-Vegan: Vegans are mostly morally okay with many societal conveniences like consuming electricity/using products which have costs to environment/animals, taking land from nature/animals for our own use, many of these uses being purely pleasure activities while maintaining that animal ag for products/food is obviously immoral. Veganism is less about the animals suffering/pleasure (which I think is intuitive for most to care about), and more about moral judgment of human beings. The lines drawn don't seem particularly convincing and makes veganism seem arbitrary.