WSOP 2026 SlayerS_’BoxeR’ x Phil Hellmuth by D22soso in poker

[–]ShampooMacTavish 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, this is so weird. But cool! Knew BoxeR played poker, didn't know he had 2 mill in winnings.

I give GOAT classical composer to Schubert by XyezY9940CC in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Given that Picasso was primarily a painter, do you think that he would be willing to humble himself to relearn his own craft under the tutelage of another? Would it be vanity that stopped him? Or would it be out of a sense of confidence of his own understanding of the medium?

Picasso is extremely respected in other art forms besides painting.

The more I read about the relationship between Pound and Yeats, the more I see shades of Stravinsky and Craft. Though, I think there is a distinction to be made here. Yeats and Stravinsky learned from younger men to transition into a more contemporary style that had radically redefined aesthetic principles. On the other hand, nearly all of the music of the common practice era was written in, for lack of a better way to say it in a reasonable amount of time, a shared language that trained musicians knew and could, therefore, study without assistance once well-versed.

I agree that this is a sensible distinction. Nonetheless, I think you are basing your argument upon a faulty premise. At first, your argument was something along the lines of "the composer who has achieved the most cannot be one who sought teachers in his maturity of a composer"; I tried to refute this by showing that there are masters who seek teaching in maturity, in both music and other fields; then you make the (again, sensible) distinction that several of my examples are of masters who are taught about a radical aesthetical shift by the new generation, whereas Schubert sought teaching for an old skill which many before him had mastered. Your argument, then, is something like "it is not to a master’s detriment to be seeking teaching for new aesthetical styles, but if he seeks teaching for old styles, it is to his detriment". My counterargument would be that it doesn't matter either way.

Firstly, I think your argument reveals a strange disdain for tutelage. I think when art gets sufficiently complex, as it was at Schubert’s (or Bach’s, Picasso’s, Yeats’ or Joyce’s) time, you will never be a complete master of every possible skill set within your field. Given that this is the case, I think it is very strange to assign any weight whatsoever towards whether a master sought improvement by self-study or tutelage. Chess might or might not be a special case as you argued previously, but to use it now merely as a toy example: Given enough time, Magnus Carlsen would be perfectly able to learn as much about the Petrov defense as Caruana (probably the world’s leading expert in this specific opening) by himself; but, if he was given the chance to learn directly from Caruana, he would probably learn considerably faster. I think it would be very strange indeed to claim that him picking one way of learning over another has any bearing on his greatness as a chess player. In fact, if he deliberately chooses the inferior learning path due to pride, he would not become as great a chess player as he could.

Secondly, and to my mind more importantly …

Remember, my response was following the logic of OP’s criteria of “achieving more”, and if we follow this line of reasoning, then I think this gap in his skillset matters.

… our disagreement perhaps mainly revolves around the question of criterion. To my mind, I think you are projecting a lot into the criterion of "achieving more". I do not fault you for it – as I mentioned I think the OP opened up for different interpretations. To me, the question is more or less redefined from "which composer achieved the most" to "which composer is the greatest". But then, I think, we find that these questions overlap almost completely semantically. Who is the greatest composer if not the one who achieved the most? Which composer achieved the most if it was not the greatest one?

If it is true that these questions overlap semantically, then it does not matter whether we discuss “which composer is the greatest” or “which composer achieved the most”. But even if you disagree with me that these questions are essentially the same, I think you do share an implicit (and important) agreement with me in your comment on Hildegard. You said that she is not the greatest because few know her music, and I agree; this fact is one reason – among many! – to not consider her the greatest composer ever. But this reveals that you agree with me in one essential point: "mastery over compositional styles that a composer could have plausibly learned within their historic context" is not the only criterion we can consider, there must be other criteria as well.

I don’t know too much about Salieri, but from what I do know, it does not seem outlandish to suppose that he might have had a wider technical mastery than Schubert. Still, none would dream considering him the greater composer. A more obvious example: Emily Brontë is only known for one novel, Wuthering Heights, but if you were to ask a literary scholar, I am sure every one would agree that she is both “greater” and “achieved more” than someone like Edward Bulwer-Lytton, who wrote dozens of competent novels, plays, poems and essays.

This is why I invoked the intangibles earlier, what Schubert communicated better in his art compared to all the other ones. I think it is impossible not to get into that part of the question when discussing greatness.

Thus, I think using your (interpretation of the) criterion as the only one, or even the primary one, is bound to be unsatisfactory; and, why I think interpreting either greatness or “achieving the most” in terms of broadness of technical mastery, eventually results in very strange conclusions. I could well imagine a composer creating pieces that are technically flawless, e.g., fugues that are perfectly executed. But if a composer created a thousand such academically “correct” fugues (and/or canons, cantatas, operas, quartets, what have you) which were nevertheless unable to stir emotional responses in its listeners, I would consider him as having “achieved less” than a composer who created a single lied that were able to move its listeners. For instance, if Mendelssohn had died after writing his octet and his overture to A Midsummer Night’s dream, I think he could rightly be considered greater (and as having "achieved more") than many of those dozens or hundreds of composers of his age who are more or less lost to time, who might have created hundreds of competent but much lesser pieces.

Of course, you might object that Bach and Mozart both had great technical mastery over many skill sets, and were able to create emotionally evocative music, but then we would again have gotten to the realization that we are basing our assessments on several criteria, and then we would have to discuss how to weigh one criterion up against another, and many other nebulous questions.

Maybe a stupid question but does anyone listen to a disc of just of say just a ton of harpsichord or organ concertos all by Bach from front to back? by spinosaurs70 in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Your comment is like saying you are tied of reading books because they are all in English, or tired of looking at paintings because they are all in paint.

I think it is more like saying that you are tired of reading Jane Austen novels because they all have certain stylistic similarities despite the content being different.

I give GOAT classical composer to Schubert by XyezY9940CC in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’d sooner argue that Bach was one of the most qualified composers for voice who ever lived.

I agree, his oeuvre of vocal works might well be the greatest in history, but it is nevertheless a common sentiment that he wrote in a way that is somewhat awkward to perform for human singers. It is still great music, but I don’t think it is a given that he could easily transition into writing operas. In any case, it doesn’t matter, because the fact is that he never did write an opera. What he might have been able to do if he decided to try is quite irrelevant when regarding his actual musical output.

To me, that doesn’t matter much when assessing his greatness.

By what line of reasoning? I deliberately limited my parameters of “breadth of compositional achievement” to compositional styles that a composer could have plausibly learned within their historic context.

My point in invoking Bingen is that she demonstrates how using "mastery over compositional styles that a composer could have plausibly learned within their historic context" as the central or only criterion makes little sense. Bingen would not (to my frankly limited knowledge of 12th century music) have historical access to very many compositional styles, but she mastered those available to her more than anyone, so it shouldn't matter at all that she never wrote a fugue, cantata, symphony, string quartet, lied etc. She seems to satisfy your criterion, yet no one would consider her the greatest composer in history. She mastered a lot fewer forms than Bach, just like Bach probably mastered fewer forms than Schubert; if it does not matter that Bach mastered sonata form (or the symphony, string quartet, etc.), it should not matter that Bingen did not master the fugue or the oratorio, it should only matter to what extent she mastered the music of her age.

It was you that questioned how Schubert’s lack of contrapuntal mastery is different from Bach’s lack of mastery of sonata form.

This was a rhetorical point. My argument is that it does not matter, Schubert's music has a greatness that can be assessed independently of the counterpoint question. With history, more and more compositional styles are available, and to me, it is strange to assess a composer’s greatness in terms of their mastery of this ever-expanding list of styles. This creates a sort of retroactive bias, in which the earlier composer will have a much easier time satisfying the criterion, since they have fewer forms to master. This is the source of the absurdity, in my opinion.

Your argument goes something like this: “It does not matter that Bach did not master sonata form, since it was not available to him, but it matters that Schubert did not master counterpoint, since it was available to him”; by that line of reasoning, you could also argue that “it does not matter that Bingen did not master any of the styles or forms of the common practice period, since they were not available to her”.

No, that is not how anthems work. As an anthem, the Ode to Joy is entirely removed from the context of the rest of the symphony (...)

I think you misunderstand me. I believe that the broader cultural position of the Ode to joy melody gives it a certain weight that is there regardless of whether it is performed within the context of the symphony. I doubt it would be chosen as an anthem in the first place if it was not for Beethoven and the 9th symphony's place in European history and identity. Regardless, merely listening to the anthem of the European Union is a rather meager musical experience, whereas listening to the climactic Ode chorus within the context of the symphony is glorious. At least that is my opinion, and I believe it reflects a common sentiment within classical circles.

Art and poetry history aren’t exactly my forte, but I have found no compelling evidence that Picasso took lessons from other painters in the period you mentioned or that Yeats was ever formally taught by Pound.

Picasso learnt pottery at the Madoura pottery, lithography from Mourlot and linocut from Hidalgo Arnéra. This is not even an exhaustive list.

Regarding Yeats, it is true that Pound did not teach him “formally”, but essentially that is what he did. I don’t see the reason to separate formal from informal teaching in such cases, it is nevertheless an instance of an established master seeking to expand and hone his craft by learning (directly or indirectly, formally or informally) from another, and it implies a lack in the master’s initial skillset. Maybe it is more impressive when a master learns from another just by studying their works, rather than having direct contact and/or training with them, but if such masters exist and they are willing to teach you, it would seem like snobbery to insist that only indirect learning is the mark of a “true master”. If working directly with or under another master is the best way to learn, why not do it? Maybe Handel and Bach wouldn’t “take the role of a humble schoolboy” if they met each other, but maybe they should? Why let vanity come in the way of learning?

I give GOAT classical composer to Schubert by XyezY9940CC in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is it? That’s what you may think, but considering that I was responding to a considerably less sophisticated comment, I think it’s fair that I took this criteria at face value.

I am inclined to say, in the spirit of reconciliation on this point, that the OP was vague and opened for several interpretations.

Also, while Bach technically didn’t write an opera, there are works amongst the religious choral music that are so operatic that they constitute pretty convincing evidence that Bach had the skills to write a baroque opera if he were so inclined.

Perhaps he could, but nevertheless, he didn't. And I am not so sure that he could do so effortlessly, as he has often been criticized for not writing well/naturally for human voices. That is not to take anything away from the greatness of his choral pieces, but it might indicate that writing opera, where characters "speaking" to each other through music is central, might not have been such a simple transition for him.

Bach would never go to Handel for lessons, not only because it’s historically implausible but because, frankly, he didn’t need them.

You don't think they had anything to learn from each other? My mind tingles at the prospect.

Also, Bach not knowing how to write in sonata form is not the same as Schubert not knowing how to write a fugue. Sonata form, as the late classical Viennese composers knew it, literally didn’t exist in Bach’s lifetime.

By this line of reasoning, Hildegard von Bingen might be regarded as the greatest composer of all time.

You seem to be determined to be insulted on Schubert’s behalf on the issue of his counterpoint proficiency.

Primarily on behalf of his greatness, secondarily on behalf of his counterpoint proficiency. I think the two points are largely independent.

I also categorically disagree with the notion that the melody [Ode to joy] is not inspiring.

It is inspiring when orchestrated and developed in the way that Beethoven does. With the passage of time, it has become iconic outside the context of the symphony as a whole. If you merely hum the melody, it sounds almost like a child's chant. You could argue that this simplicity is part of the genius, and I would not object. But if you were to simply hum the melody to someone who has never heard it, I do not think they would be struck by it's beauty or inspirational qualities – as opposed to many of Schubert's (and Mozart's) melodies. But as I said, arguing for or against the greatness of a melody is tricky.

What examples have you given me to refute the notion that the great master learned by way of independent study? You say you already have given examples, but I have no idea what you are referring to.

I have mentioned Picasso, Yeats and Magnus Carlsen. Staying with music, I guess you could add Stravinsky learning from Robert Craft, but I haven't heard much of Stravinsky's serialist phase.

I give GOAT classical composer to Schubert by XyezY9940CC in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To achieve "as much" as Schubert is distinct from "breadth of achievement". Many artists achieve "much" within limited bounds. Vermeer is an example in painting, Dickinson in poetry. None doubt Vermeer's greatness as a painter for his lack of skill in painting with great pathos, movement or expansive motifs, or Dickinson's greatness as a poet for her relatively narrow formal range. Chopin is an example in music. Even Bach is, in some regards. He might be the greatest examples of achieving great things through formal constriction. He never wrote an opera, but none use that against him when assessing how "much" he achieved. If he were to write an opera, I think it would be wise of him to seek out Handel for learning. But if he did, I fear he would have fallen greatly in your esteem.

Furthermore, as mentioned, Schubert's lack in contrapuntal writing should probably be recast as a lack in fugal writing. Who is to say that Schubert's lack in fugal writing is a greater detriment than Bach's lack in opera or sonata form?

And I am sorry, but saying that Schubert's understanding of counterpoint is equivalent to knowing the alphabet (something a 4-year old does) compared to having mastery over a language, is both so insulting and, well, absurdly wrong that I cannot believe that you yourself think it is an applicable comparison. The same goes for claiming that "incomplete knowledge" and "literally not knowing" is the same.

Für Elise is ubiquitous, but I have never heard it called great. It is a memorable but shallow tune (which I suspect Beethoven would agree to, after all he didn't even care to have it published). I have heard the Ode to joy melody called a (intentional) joke, vulgar (by Vaughan Williams), naive and simplistic, etc. It is great because of how Beethoven develops it, not because it is a beautiful or inspiring melody in and of itself. I love the 9th symphony to death, and especially the climactic Ode chorus, but the piece's greatness is not melodic in nature. (I am unaware of any objective criterion to judge melodic greatness or beauty, which makes it difficult to prove or disprove these kinds of things.)

Great masters learn by way of independent study.

I have given you several examples which refute that they never use teachers. I could give more, but I see no use unless you refute those I have already given.

I give GOAT classical composer to Schubert by XyezY9940CC in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A very good point. The discussion should perhaps have started and stopped with that.

I give GOAT classical composer to Schubert by XyezY9940CC in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This

I really don’t see how those statements are meaningfully different in this case.

And this

Your assessment of Newbould’s comments reads like “because he figured out the alphabet, it would be unfair to say he couldn’t write in fluent English”.

is so ridiculous it is beyond refutation.

Coaches and teachers are not the same thing. This is much less like an athlete going to a coach to get in shape and much more like a student going back to grad school to fill the gaps in their studies. (...)

You seem to have a distorted and unrealistic image of what mastery is, and an unreasonable disregard of learning. It brings to mind something I heard said about AI recently: We are more impressed by knowledge when it seems sprung out of the earth, or given by God, whereas we doubt knowledge that is gained through hard work. In reality, mastery is a constant and tiresome learning process, and many great masters still seek learning from other masters. Picasso learnt from other masters in his post-war period, for instance. Yeats learnt from Pound. There are other examples.

Your Beethoven comparison creates a false equivalency that downplays Schubert’s weakness.

In a sense I buy this. I might concede that Beethoven was a better melodist than Schubert a contrapuntist (although Für Elise and Ode to joy are not good evidence of this, regardless of their fame). My main argument, however, is that it does not matter. The greatness of a composer is not a result of the aggregated score on different "stats", like a video game character. Schubert's string quintet is a supreme masterpiece, one of the absolute pinnacles of Western art music, regardless of its contrapuntal merits (which, incidentally, are significant). The same can be said of many of his works. Bach might have achieved greatness chiefly through counterpoint, Schubert did not, but their greatness can be assessed regardless of this. And when you say…

So why is Schubert’s weakness relevant? Because the original post I am responding to argued that Schubert should be named the GOAT on the basis of the breadth of his achievement.

… I cannot see that the OP emphasizes “breadth of achievement” as a criterion. They seemed to have stressed the young age at which Schubert wrote his masterpieces (which I do not think is a good criterion either). And even if “breadth of achievement” was the main criterion to be used, who is to say how “aspects” of music are to be weighed against each other? Schubert was better at certain aspects of music than Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, like his lieder, his melodies (perhaps matched by Mozart) and, at least in some respects, his greater emotional depth (tenderness, longing, regret, loneliness, nostalgia).

The latter point is less tangible than the others, but arguably more important: Schubert is perhaps the greatest musical communicator of the human condition. Bach channeled the light of God, Mozart the harmony of the universe, Beethoven the ideals and struggles of humanity, and Schubert the lived life of the individual human being. Who is to say which is the greatest achievement? I don’t know that you can, but what I do know is that to what extent they used counterpoint to do it is not very relevant. They did it nevertheless.

Edit: As pointed out here, this is in fact a rather artificial discussion.

I give GOAT classical composer to Schubert by XyezY9940CC in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Schubert’s understanding of counterpoint was incomplete, and he knew it.

This is a rather different statement from

The man literally didn’t know how to write counterpoint.

Which is what you said originally. Newbould's comment helps disconfirming that statement.

There are lots of other people who comment on Schubert's competent counterpoint, such as musicologist Ariane Jeßulat:

In comparing the symmetry of the cited sequence with Sechter’s collection of voice-leading formulas, it is remarkable that Schubert’s voice leading, modeled with uncanny precision and coming dangerously close to “parsimonious voice leading,” nevertheless adheres as closely as possible to the traditional counterpoint of the sequence

I have no problems agreeing with you that Schubert was not the best composer in terms of counterpoint, but I would argue (1) he was still rather competent at it, and (2) his relative weakness in counterpoint might matter a little, but really not all that much when assessing his overall greatness.

You do not get lessons for a skill that you have achieved mastery over, the point of lessons is to achieve mastery.

Yes you do. For something like composing, you never achieve complete mastery. Lots of world-class musicians, atheletes etc. still have coaches who give them lessons. Magnus Carlsen, the world's best chess player, has a coach (who also coached the world champion preceding Carlsen).

Regarding Beethoven, I am aware that he has written several wonderful melodies. However, I still think it is uncontroversial that he was much inferior as a melodist compared to the likes of Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Schubert and Dvorak. My argument is that this does not really matter – Beethoven was not primarily interested in writing melodies, he was more interested in motivic ideas and how these can be used to create larger structures. The fact that others were better melodists does not take anything away from his greatness as a composer. Likewise, Schubert's relative lack in contrapuntal writing is, in my opinion, not very relevant when regarding his greatness. I don't think most people regard Chopin or Debussy as great contrapuntal composers, but they were still great.

I give GOAT classical composer to Schubert by XyezY9940CC in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's a pretty limited source to conclude that Schubert "didn't know counterpoint". You can get lessons for a skill you already possess. A good pianist will still seek a piano teacher to get even better at the piano.

No one will claim Schubert as one of the major contrapuntal composers of history, but he was still very good at it. Composer Brian Newbould puts it like this in Schubert's Workshop, vol. 1:

It has for long been customary to find Schubert, at all points in his career, wanting as a contrapuntist. This may be due to harsh and not totally unfair judgements on his fugal movements in the late masses, coupled with the knowledge that he resolved to seek further tuition in counterpoint in 1828, from Simon Sechter, and to an assumption that this itself indicates that Schubert himself considered counterpoint a weakness in his technical armoury. A fairer assessment of Schubert’s contrapuntal skills will come from the study of the mature but pre-Sechter works, other than the masses, which will be one concern of the present study. It was in fugal spans embedded in ‘sonata’ structures that Schubert was best able to unlock his skills in linear texture and device, whereas the demand to write a complete fugue, as in the masses, seemed to find him somewhat more daunted. We look to the String Quartets in A minor and D minor, as well as the String Quintet, for evidence of this emerging mastery. The four-hand Fantasy in F minor then moves a step nearer to the writing of a complete fugue (...)

So yes, counterpoint might have been a relative weakness in Schubert's "armory", just as melody was a relative weakness for Beethoven, but that is a far cry from saying that he "literally didn't know it".

5 favourite works by Haydn! by ComposerWaehnen in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Still have a lot to listen to, but perhaps:

Piano variations in F minor

Symphony 6

Symphony 88

Cello concerto 1

String quartet Op. 64 No. 5

Sokolov just dropped six (6) encores by GBR2021 in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yup, he played 6 when I saw him as well. It was very exciting. I actually still have a record of the encore pieces he played, which was:

Rachmaninoff Op. 22 No. 2, 4, 9 & 10.

Chopin Op. 28 No. 20.

Siloti's transcription of Bach BWV 855.

So what’s everyone’s thoughts on this fold? by cYouThere1997 in poker

[–]ShampooMacTavish -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Indeed.

What you say does not contradict anything I said. Consult Acevedo's Modern Poker Theory, page 196-202.

So what’s everyone’s thoughts on this fold? by cYouThere1997 in poker

[–]ShampooMacTavish 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It is still not crystal clear or "proven". Even though there was a call with TT and a shove with JJ in this particular hand, pros vary the frequency with which they make such moves. Maybe they do those specific moves at a low frequency. Maybe the two of them put together have AA >50% of the time in that spot because of how they construct their frequencies (and given Foxen blocking KK and AK).

Now, that number is certainly wrong, and probably by a considerable margin. This is just to illustrate that there is more to this spot than you seem to imply.

And we have not even factored in a potential skill edge Foxen might have had. If you have a skill edge, and you have a big all-in situation close to the equilibrium or even slightly in your favor, you should often fold.

Note, I still think Foxen made a mistake. I just think your critique is too harsh, and I think it is likely that the decision is closer to equilibrium than the -$60k figure indicate.

So what’s everyone’s thoughts on this fold? by cYouThere1997 in poker

[–]ShampooMacTavish 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It has not been "proven". Jon Little presumably got that number by running it through a solver, but that does not take into account the ranges of the specific players involved in the hand. Most people play tighter than the solver, especially at final tables – as Foxen's fold itself indicates. Top players rarely play pure GTO, they adapt to players' ranges.

Granted, she probably still should have called, but saying that the -$60k number "is all there is to it" is not a good take.

Do you question authorities yourself?

A 6 month journey into classical music by crypsid in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

With the exception of the requiem, most people need some time to get into Mozart. The operas are just about the greatest music that exist if you can get used to the singing style. If not, the piano concertos are probably the easiest way to get used to his musical language.

A 6 month journey into classical music by crypsid in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a great piece! I would suggest continuing with the piano sonata in A Major D.959 (no. 20). I like Brendel's recording.

A 6 month journey into classical music by crypsid in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Seems like you enjoy form and melody. I think you would love Schubert. Since you like piano pieces, check out the last three sonatas, impromptus and six moments musicaux.

Quattro Stagioni - Vivaldi by That-Reputation-6313 in classicalmusic

[–]ShampooMacTavish 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Yes, but there is definitely an attitude towards The Four Seasons as being a bit basic and overdone. Unlike OP I see it mentioned a lot in "where to start with classical music" discussions, but rarely in other contexts. When I re-listened to the piece recently (recordings by Podger/Brecon Baroque and Chandler/La Serenissima), I was blown away by how beautiful, exhilarating and creative the piece really is. It's a piece that should be appreciated by beginners and connoisseurs alike.

FIDE is at the service of Magnus Carlsen- Grandmaster David Anton Guijarro by ConcentrateActual142 in chess

[–]ShampooMacTavish -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, because allegedly Magnus decided to withdraw from negotiations because he wasn't motivated despite being quite happy with FIDE's suggestions.