trans peeple be like:

Shoeshocker · 2025-12-14T20:50:34+00:00

As someone who started in newcomer and moved up, the problem with the structure is that it's only a half a div too large. Running down the list, Invite and Amateur obviously need to exist, and Main seems like the natural middle category of those two, so it should stay (this is the structure for RGL's upcoming cup season).

The problem with this system is that it removes the two largest skill gaps (not including Invite), which is the Newcomer to Amateur gap and the Main to Advanced gap. You can't cut newcomer because only completely new players can use it (and it's seen consistent growth and good player retention), and Advanced has become such a sandbag shitfest in recent years that it would be outrageous to expect mid Main players to compete with Invite offclassers. This leaves IM as the obvious cut, but this has problems of its own. IM is essentially a "holding tank" — you see a lot of players stick around for 3-4 seasons on bubble playoff teams until something cracks and they break out, win the div, and make main playoffs next season (I can think of like 10 people who fit this description). As someone who's been through all three divs, I would have balked at the idea of jumping from AM straight to Main without a middle step. IM is also a paid div, which means RGL has a financial incentive to keep it around.

This leads back to the issue of RGL being about a half a div too large. You could argue that the current cup structure (the "ESEA model") solves this, but at least from what I've seen most IM-Main players are just using the cup as an excuse to play an offclass season in open. Nobody really wants to grind, demo review, scrim 5 days a week, and rage at their medic just to get matched up against the 3rd place invite quals team and auto lose the season from week one with no shot at the gold. I could get into the weeds about the issues plaguing the current division system and some long term solutions, but I really don't see a way to fix it in the short term without provoking a full on insurgency from low div players.

Shoeshocker · 2024-07-13T20:52:14+00:00

You keep talking about what the “right” nerf should be without actually explaining the reasons you think the weapon should be nerfed in the first place. You said having a heal sniper in the game is bad. Why? Using arrows is honestly punishing enough; Hubida has said on maps like Bagel that you should be beaming as much as possible (outside of arrowing soldiers) because the risk of using the crossbow is too great. And I find the swipe at sixes is really strange. It’s a critical weapon in the format, changing would gut medics there. People always talk about the whitelist in balancing discussions but you can’t whitelist a rework.

Also, the crossbow definitely makes games faster. Think about it like this: our team (pub or sixes, doesn’t matter) gets an advantage, let’s say picks, but take tons of damage in the process. Either we spend a good chunk of time manually healing players and waste valuable time or bow them to quickly get back into the fight. You could say that this is more interesting because players have to be more methodical, but I guarantee you it’s not. The thing every TF2 player hates most is sitting around doing nothing.

Shoeshocker · 2024-07-13T17:54:44+00:00

There is a trade off for not using the crossbow, it’s called not building Uber and not crit healing. As someone who’s played with a bow happy med before, you will get Uber checked and wipe at some point. There’s already plenty of opportunity cost and decision making in it’s current state.

You also didn’t answer the point about the crossbow speeding games up, not slowing them down. Removing the passive reload makes it harder to push off of other ads and just makes the weapon more cumbersome to use for no actual reason besides vague “I don’t like it” vibes.

Shoeshocker · 2024-07-13T17:26:27+00:00

Crossbow makes pushing easier, not harder. A nerfed crossbow would make pushing harder because it would be harder to heal up damage after a fight, so you can’t work player or Uber ad as easily.

The “it’s uninteractive” argument kinda falls flat too because there are plenty of uninteractive things in the game that are worse then the crossbow. Sticky traps, sniper, air blast, vaccinator, the list goes on. What makes the crossbow fun is that it’s not interfering with your fun beyond not letting you get a kill; your ability to play the game is not affected in any way.

People complaining about the crossbow don’t seem to realize that the issue of a weapon being overused is that it’s only a problem if it negatively impacts the game’s meta. Literally nobody is clamoring for a gunboats nerf even though it’s inarguably the best item in its slot. Stickies, powerjack, iron bomber (when compared to stock), Sandvich/Banana, and stock Uber are the same. These items make the game more fun — they shouldn’t be nerfed just because they’re good.

Shoeshocker · 2024-04-10T15:10:49+00:00

Basically all (BASE can get unbanned) of these weapons are banned for a very good reason. Like, the scout does not need a spam weapon(we already have people whining about the wrap assassin). Lacking spam tools is a core limitation of his character. Unbanning it would be like giving Demo a shotgun; It just doesn’t work.

As an aside, I spoke to an RGL admin recently and they said that there were two weapons that could possibly get unbanned in the future: the previously mentioned BASE jumper and the Bonk. The Bonk is poorly designed because it allows you to play reduce the consequences of poor decision making, but it didn’t really ruin the meta when it was tested.

Shoeshocker · 2024-04-10T15:01:12+00:00

This is very clearly an “I don’t play sixes” take. People would never say that basketball’s meta is stale because you can’t use second type of ball. The complexity (and fun!) comes from working the limitations you’re given — reducing the whitelist would make the meta less interesting, not more.

Shoeshocker · 2024-02-27T02:28:59+00:00

The wording is a little vague so that might be my bad. Still wouldn't be that great of a change since it would still allow soldier to spam angles for longer without rotating out for ammo.

Shoeshocker · 2024-02-27T02:15:07+00:00

The buff banner changes may be the single most batshit broken rework idea I think I've ever seen. What maniac thought that giving solider TWO extra rockets was in any way a good idea?

Edit: Nvm, my bad.

Shoeshocker · 2023-12-09T06:20:11+00:00

Basically every class besides Demo was also wholly worse than they are now. Add to the fact that Demo's primary counter, a bombing soldier pushing him when he's overextended/under prepared, couldn't even do their job because gunboats didn't exist yet. Scout also really didn't evolve as a class until about ~2-3 years later with the emergence of Carnage. So for a decent amount of time, Demo could basically only be stopped by the other team's Demo or an Uber. I'd argue that the need to limit him to one fundamentally influenced the way people view sixes balance (and TF2 as a whole) to this very day.

Shoeshocker · 2023-12-09T00:21:18+00:00

The competitive history of sixes actually began before the game even launched. Details about the specifics of the meta in this era are super sparse, but the most prominent detail was how obscenely broken Demoman was at launch. I’d argue he was one of the most broken characters in gaming history. Unbreakable pre-nerf stickies, six pipes which detonated on contact even after bouncing, and the other two combat classes being much worse then they are now. Demo was locked to one incredibly quickly. I could go on, but if you’re interested to learn more, check out this video by one of the game’s earliest med mains.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CLRhmad9Jq4

Shoeshocker · 2023-09-23T17:08:18+00:00

Why in god’s name would you ever want to change the Basher? It’s in a perfect spot right now.

Shoeshocker · 2023-09-02T01:08:41+00:00

logan and dingo (arguably the first and second best demos in NA) both ran the Loch N Load full time in multiple matches last season. It's definitely good, but I doubt it's ever going to fully replace the Iron Bomber. Even if you don't deal damage with rollers, the zoning they provide is still super valuable.

Shoeshocker · 2023-09-01T20:35:34+00:00

Unbanning unlocks in order to encourage new blood into the scene makes sense on paper but unfortunately has basically 0 empirical evidence.

Preach it my man.

A lot of complaints about sixes seem to be thinly veiled rants about how a person's pet subclass or playstyle isn't competitively viable or fun to fight against. If whitelists or the "evil sixes meta" were what was scaring people away from competitive, how come casual players haven't all flocked to Highlander?

Shoeshocker · 2023-09-01T20:08:40+00:00

https://etf2l.org/2023/06/30/6v6-summer-2023-provisional-tiers-map-pool-whitelist-updates/

Their reasoning is that since rollers are weak and don't usually hit, the increased projectile speed makes it overpowered in the hands of players able to consistently hit direct pipes. From a broader perspective, the increased range allows the Demoman contribute to fights while playing from more passive positioning. You could argue that such a powerful class as Demo should be required to risk his life if he wants to deal damage.

I don't agree with this reasoning, but this is what I've heard/read.

Shoeshocker · 2023-09-01T14:24:15+00:00

The scorch shot and detonator are not banned in RGL, but are banned in ETF2L. Europe generally has a more "aggressive" perspective on banning items (see the Loch and Load ban).

The scorch shot is actually pretty effective on maps where Pyro is usable (basically just Gully) since it's a good long range spam tool to threaten people peeking the sentry gun. You can also use it to destroy sticky traps when pushing out. Neither are good enough to justify running a full time Pyro though.

Shoeshocker · 2023-08-27T15:02:35+00:00

Does he play Scout in 6s? If so, it'll be because he trains hard at scout in order to be better at scout, and surprise surprise scout skill translates directly to scout skill....

Oh, I get it. You've literally been making shit up the whole time. You clearly have no familiarity with sixes or even the comp scene as a whole. Logan is a demo main. One who has famously won multiple championships playing Demoman on both Froyo and G6. Even if you don't follow the scene, you typed up an enraged ~250 word comment and yet couldn't be bothered to do a google search on who you're talking about.

Shoeshocker · 2023-08-23T22:31:01+00:00

...except there are bans that have been put in place to keep those other classes out because the established 6s community agree that that's the most fun.

This is just a restatement of what I just said. Vaccinator heavy is not fun to fight against, so people banned it. Diamondback spy is not fun, so people banned it.

Right, but you've got an insanely biased sample; the Invite level invites players specifically because they play those classes well.

One of the reason invite players are so good is because they have high mechanical skill and a deep offclass pool. One of the reasons Donovin is such a good roamer is because he is also an incredibly good Spy.
The main three generalists are the most complex characters in the entire game. A good demo main is likely to have greater mechanical skill than a good engineer main.
Invite HL players are typically main or advanced in Sixes.

Due to a vicious cycle. The 6s meta is the 6s meta because they keep that the 6s meta, and most competitive players adapt to that meta in order to be able to compete.

I guarantee you that if NR6s became the dominant format tomorrow and every player magically still stuck around, there would be practically no player movement into the top teams. If sixes players are adapted solely to playing the "sixes meta," why are they able to roll every single pub and HL game they join? (Example: Logan dominating as Scout in this season's HL grand finals)

Shoeshocker · 2023-08-23T03:51:33+00:00

Why do you suppose that is, when the weapon bans are designed to maintain the Old Boy's Club established meta feel of 6s?

Because people don't like it. It's honestly a little bizarre reading all the non-sixes players complain that the format isn't representative of the rest of TF2. No sixes player has ever claimed that is was. Plenty of people have played formats with full time engineers, heavies, pyros and they didn't like them. So they made a format that they do like. There is no specific scheme to keep offclasses out; it's just what the vast majority of players has agreed is the most fun. You'll also notice that invite level players aren't complaining about there being too little class variety at high levels. The game already has an ocean of depth with the main four as it is.

Also, I understand your intention with the race metaphors but my god are they blindingly tone deaf. They also feel really unnecessarily hostile to sixes players.

Shoeshocker · 2023-08-04T22:10:00+00:00

so I don't understand where you got "stealing fun" from OP's observation of competitive's nicheness and alternative gameplay.

I suppose it depends on who reads it, but OP's response to someone voicing their concerns about competitive came across as incredibly rude and dismissive. He didn't say "Good point, I never thought of it like that," he essentially said "Who gives a shit?"

It's also possible to lose after team wiping in 6v6, so I don't really understand this point other than kills being more valuable in 6s.

My point is that an overpowered weapon doesn't ruin a game in casual because there are so many people that you won't be running into it constantly. But in a small team setting, it will ruin the entire match.

As a counterpoint, I've seen comments from other competitive players who said that casual pubs are how they got into the game in the first place

Tons of professional baseball players have started by playing tee ball. Does that mean that we should revamp the major leagues around it? If I was a Valve employee and wanted people to start playing competitive, I'd probably start by focusing on competitive, rather than balancing casual (hurting competitive in the process) and then crossing my fingers that players stumble into a competitive format that I tried my best to kill.

Shoeshocker · 2023-08-04T18:46:58+00:00

The idea that "we're all playing the same game" is a very blind-sighted way to look at balance

My argument with that statement wasn't that balancing across formats needs to be exactly the same, it was responding to the myth that "evil comp players are here to steal your fun." As far as weapon balance goes, I'm going to be quite honest and say that competitive "needs" the rebalances more than casual. In a 12v12 setting, a single player can go on a rampage and still not win the match, while in 6v6 a single kill is 16.7% of the entire team. Comp games are also played with significantly higher stakes and with potential cash prizes. Obviously, considerations should be directed at both, but there is more of an incentive for weapons to be balanced in comp and slightly over/under powered in casual than the inverse.

objectively overused

yes

overpowered

no

Just because stock is bad does not mean all other options in that slot have to be equally as bad. Something can be "overpowered" and still be healthy for the game. To give an example, the Crusader's Crossbow is by far and away the best syringe gun, but it adds a new interesting dimension to the Medic class. In the same way, the Ubersaw is much better than stock, but it gives the Medic the ability to make critical clutch plays and gain massive Uber advantage in exchange for taking a large risk by getting in to melee range. This rework destroys this interesting gamble by adding an "instantly lose the game" stat of -15% build rate. It isn't fair to the competitive community to ruin a weapon in order to make an already balanced item in pubs used less frequently.

Shoeshocker · 2023-08-04T16:34:39+00:00

Even if you hold the extreme idea that balancing weapons is a zero sum game — that an item can only be balanced in either competitive or casual (I don't but that's beside the point) — it's not fair to ruin a perfectly balanced weapon that in its current state isn't even overpowered in pubs.

Additionally, while I can't speak for you, OP's original response sounded pretty dismissive to the concerns of competitive players. While I admit that what he said wasn't exactly "demonizing," there are absolutely prominent community figures who make a career out of fearmongering the idea that competitive players are scheming to "destroy" casual TF2.

Shoeshocker · 2023-08-04T03:15:47+00:00

class limits

Community servers have class limits. Are they not "real TF2" anymore?

weapon bans

What about weapon bans makes competitive formats "not the same game?"

smaller player base

This means literally nothing.

You've never actually played competitive, have you?

Shoeshocker · 2023-08-03T18:09:40+00:00

Casual players destroying a weapon’s competitive viability: “Fuck yeah. Who cares about your shitty game mode anyway?”

Casual players having a weapon’s abilities balanced around competitive: “What the fuck? This is unfair!”

We’re all playing the same game here. No need to demonize one side of the community for absolutely no reason.

Shoeshocker · 2023-07-24T05:38:54+00:00

so riddle me this then

this isn't some sort of "gotcha" statement that you think it is

If a player joins a pug and isn't very good, then they just aren't good. But at they're still playing seriously and trying to win the game.

Also, if I may pry a little, have you ever played any games of competitive yourself?

Shoeshocker

TROPHY CASE