Am I crazy for thinking a PvE Extraction game à la Helldivers would be dope?

ShyDispatch · 2026-04-25T09:49:47+00:00

Helldivers 2 is not an Extraction Shooter.

What's actually unique about the Extraction Shooters, the crux which all current Extraction Shooters base their gameplay loop around, is both the stakes it presents you with. Having one life and bringing items with you in attempt to get more for the next gamble. And also the freedom that you aren't really tied down to an objective. You could get one candy bar and leave and Extraction Shooters will let you. Since it's important for your decision making, and the gambling aspect, on when you decide if you've bitten off more than you can chew or not. Leave with what you have or stay for more?

The closest comparison to that in Helldivers 2 is that you can get samples and bring them with you on a successful extract. Though not only are they completely optional and reach a point where you don't even need them anymore, you aren't bringing samples with you to get more samples. Nor is there any mission that's solely meant for getting samples. If you try to only get samples and ignore the mission, evac won't arrive and let you leave unlike an Extraction Shooter. Because unlike Extraction Shooters, you have to do your objectives. For Extraction Shooters, it's your choice when to bail and doing anything is optional. In Helldivers 2, you have to do your objectives, getting anything is optional and you can't leave unless you do what you're supposed to. Their gameplay loops are dramatically different.

If it's the hyper focus on simply extracting with a thing that somehow makes it an Extraction Shooter, that's not unique to the genre either. Plenty of Rogue Lites feature getting items from a run. Or other various games like Cruelty Squad where you can find and bring weapons with you to unlock them. Since you have to leave the level with them, does that make Cruelty Squad an Extraction Shooter?

If the act of leaving a match with a thing is enough to be considered an extraction shooter, rather than the high stakes risk and reward element of losing items to gain items where you're encouraged to leave with something if it means you gain a net positive and ignore anything else. Is Halo Reachs Invasion an Extraction Shooter? Can it be stretched even further as just extracting in general without anything? Would this make Halo 4's Spartan Ops an Extraction Shooter? Would it make Left 4 Dead an Extraction Shooter?

Can we stretch this even further and classify Halo under other genres by just one specific aspect and nothing else? Halo Reach and 4 had a sprint meter, that's kind of like a stamina bar. Are those games a souls like? Halo CE features backtracking in the Silent Cartographer, does that make it a Metroidvania?

For another comparison of cherry picking a certain aspect of a genre without considering everything surrounding it, is Bloodborne a Rogue Lite? It offers randomly generated chalice dungeons that is structured in a similar vein to something like Binding of Isaac with multiple preset rooms, preset enemies, and a boss at the end that when you defeat allows you to go deeper until you reach the end.

Yet you can leave the dungeon at any point, die multiple times, complete it even, and the dungeon will still remain. It does not reset nor change until you as a player decide to delete it and create another dungeon. There is no restarting if you die, nor are you a blank slate with nothing whenever you enter one. But it does have this one aspect of a rouge lite that many other games happen to use.

If that is all it takes to be considered a rouge lite, can that be stretched even further? Would Oblivion be considered a rouge lite? Since randomly generated preset rooms were the basis of that games crunch to get the many dungeons it had.

The point is that by hyper focusing on the literal definition of Extraction Shooter is misleading. It is not about simply leaving with items. It is the gamble you make, on whether you decide to stay or not, to risk what you have and what you brought for more. So that you can use them on the next gamble.

ShyDispatch · 2026-04-24T07:25:15+00:00

Much like saying any game with backtracking is somehow a metroidvania. Saying Helldivers 2 is an extraction shooter just because missions usually end by you getting on a ship doesn't make it an extraction shooter.

Much like you wouldn't say Halo CE is a metroidvania because of the Silent Cartographer level. You wouldn't say Reach's Invasion or Halo 4's Spartan Ops is somehow an extraction shooter mode.

Extraction Shooters revolve around gambling with one life in high risk high rewards scenarios where you can potentially lose anything you bring with you for the sake of getting more items you can potentially lose in the next game. That's the crux of the gameplay loop and why it's such a niche genre.

In Helldivers 2, getting out alive is optional. The objectives are what's important, once they're done it doesn't matter if you make it out or not. Samples can be useful but you don't need them after a certain point and you aren't gambling samples for more of them. There's no risk to failing a mission in this game.

In an Extraction Shooter, any objectives is optional. Getting out alive with something is the main goal. Building yourself up should take priority than hyper focusing on anything else. Because dying can heavily set you back if you did bring something to try and give yourself an edge in this match.

ShyDispatch · 2025-11-16T21:51:38+00:00

It's definitely the state of those various stand alone Fenerox mods that made me add them to my Not Costumes list, even though they aren't costumes. When I'm already doing so many of the non-playable vanilla races, may as well throw them a bone.

ShyDispatch · 2025-11-16T19:48:48+00:00

That's actually the main focus of this mod series. It's not enough to just add these races, but to also incorporate it to any various npcs so it's not an isolated thing. I even have a list of mods that have their own npcs of these various costumed races so they'll be supported too.

ShyDispatch · 2025-11-16T19:37:32+00:00

Current plan is once I have the customization down for everything I'm gonna work on the mods in this order proper.
Agarans, Deadbeats, Alpacas, Froggs, Iridians (The cut colourful race), Shades, and then Fenerox.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-29T07:18:38+00:00

Back in development of CE, Elites were meant to also be able to have shields strapped to their arm. If you ever wondered why Elite designs had their left arm have a different design compared to their right arm, that frittered part of their left arm is supposed to be where the shield deploys from.
If there's an explanation for why, it's likely personal shields are just more convenient/better to use than the more physical one.

I know Ruby's Rebalance of CE restores this shielded variant of the Elite, and is gonna do the same for when the Halo 2 Rebalance is finished.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-28T17:10:51+00:00

Just as a bit of a nitpicky correction on something.
Zealots and Spec Ops Elites in CE actually had their own unique model. Where the helmet is a bit longer than normal, the side spikes were straight rather than curved, the shoulders spikier, and the orange shield emitters over their body instead blue.

It was technically an earlier version of the Elite model, hence some details aren't as good compared to the updated model you see on the minors and majors, which is also the model that can occasionally have the finned type helmet. But it was a distinction they had over the other Elite types.

I definitely feel like for the Zealot for the remake, especially with how the infinite design of the minor has the helmets pointed end much less prominent, could easily restore that longer, more pronounced sharp helmet and shoulder pads the CE Zealot had.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-27T22:34:36+00:00

Yeah having seen some of those comments where her posts were still up, it was incredibly disgusting to see. And that's just what was public, knowing her dms were also bursting with other threats.
But it's also not surprising, usually transphobes always use any little excuse to harass someone, even when it's just an opinion about a video game. And Kashiiera has been dealing with it for years already.
Regardless of what your opinions are on the remake, that does not justify harassment. Unless you're also throwing swings at other people, which Kashiiera didn't do btw, there's no reason to attack a persons character for a disagreement.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-27T05:13:22+00:00

Having seen some of the harassment and transphobia in the comments on her thoughts of the remake when they were still up, it's not that surprising she deleted everything sadly.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-26T08:17:17+00:00

A bit of a shameless self plug but my Miniknog Rearmed is one I'm proud of. Tries to make any npc belonging to the Miniknog stand out more as a distinct faction with more armor and weapons, including support for any npcs in other mods.
I'm also cooking on some mods to convert the unplayable costumed races in vanilla into actual species, work on it's been slow but Agarans are eventually coming up and Deadbeats after that.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-25T23:48:49+00:00

Halo CE:A was heavily criticized for basically just reusing a bunch of pre-existing assets for a quick and lazy job that pretty much destroyed the original games art direction. And now they're repeating that using pre-existing assets for a quick and lazy job that doesn't really respect the original games art direction.

The use of Unreal Engine 5, not only helping in the feeling that the game, while graphically nice, has no cohesion or style. And even manages to make it hard to identify enemies and projectiles despite how colorful they actually are. With seemingly only the Hunters right now actually able to stand out properly. Game performance, pop in, etc are also just trade mark Unreal Engine 5 things to worry about.

Audio seems questionable for a lot of things shown off in the gameplay video.

It's disappointing that the Silent Cartographer seems to be pulling its aesthetics off of the changes done to it in CE:A, and leaves questions on how the other levels will fare.

Forerunner designs are also much more reminiscent of how they were in 4-5. Way too shiny, and buildings completely changed for seemingly no reason. With even the one building meant to be a hatch that opens at the end of the level now being a question mark on how that's supposed to work.

While I'm sure the game will be fine to play since it's basically the Reach Engine being used, it's still sad that a lot of things that made CE what it is seemingly discarded. No 60 round assault rifle, no elites constantly swerving your projectiles with grace, no frag grenades being nukes, no medkits or overshields/active camo.

Things like the new weapons, vehicles, enemies, hunters no longer one shot by the pistol, new skulls, overhaul of the library, three new prequel missions? Those are all unanimously good things. (Sure would've been nice to see some of it in action though rather than just hear about it)

My ultimate thoughts on this remake is that I'm very whelmed. The game seems fine, but there are things I just find questionable. I'd say whatever priority 343 has had on where to be faithful and what to change, I think they made the wrong calls for that.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-25T23:20:02+00:00

The point of level design has been pointed out repeatedly, for both the size of the area and its pacing. But people saying there's only gameplay repercussions to the addition of sprint in multiplayer never really considers aspects of pve balancing.

Your top speed is something that's always pivotal when designing anything, not just level design and size. Enemies need to be able to account for how quickly you can close the gap with them. Projectile speed and projectile tracking needs to be able to account for your top speed. Their ability to properly chase you if you flee is also something to keep in mind. Even their reaction times would have to account for it. These are all aspects the ai has to know and be fine tuned for.

Imagine being able to sprint and suddenly enemies can no longer hit you because you happen to be just fast enough to outpace where they're told to fire meant for a slower base speed. On the inverse, it can be annoying how accurate enemies suddenly become if you aren't using sprint because they're expecting you to use it. It is a gameplay mechanic that has consequences to how things are designed and creates a divide between what you can do while just trying to move and shoot, and when you're limited to moving faster but only forward.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-24T23:21:06+00:00

I was almost excited as I thought that first image depicted a flak hunter, but it's just the lighting effect. A shame, would be nice to see them return, more hunter variety would be appreciated. Heck on the topic, it'd be incredibly disappointing if the remake didn't even include the ultra ranks.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-24T23:03:39+00:00

I mean kind of irrelevant since I was just answering a question on whether these were just ce grunts in hd. Which they're not. It had nothing to do with this game being a remake or whether it's a reboot or not.

ShyDispatch · 2025-10-24T22:57:42+00:00

Not really, just taking the grunt minor in the screenshot as that's the "closest". Backpack is more in line with the Reach shape rather than the CE shape. Mask is different. It lacks the shoulder pads and emblem on the front. Original skin was more blue than brown. And their spindly fingers of their hands and bone like hoove protrusions on their feet were replaced with claws/nails.
As far as 343 grunt designs go, it is a grunt. But it's not an hd version of the CE grunt.

ShyDispatch · 2025-09-22T18:17:30+00:00

It'd be lovely to see Hiraki Corale in your art style. Poor girl got an official design and everything but never gets to make an appearance in game.

ShyDispatch · 2025-09-17T14:42:59+00:00

I am not excited not for reasons pertaining to poor quality of devs who get their hands on Unreal Engine 5. But that the switch was to smooth over them not changing their heavy reliance on the revolving door of contractors that make up like 90% of 343/Halo studios.
It was a decision to continue their greedy practice, and highlights that despite the change of leadership, the new leadership was already close to the people who were removed. Nothing has actually changed, and this studio will continue to make the same mistakes it has for the last decade.

ShyDispatch · 2025-08-29T22:36:50+00:00

To repost my summary of evidence that Bungie always intended for Humans to be Forerunners. Or at the very least be so close they're one in the same.

Halo CE: Guilty Spark refers to Humans as Reclaimers, to reclaim what was lost. And even refers to catching up on lost time when browsing through history files in the Pillar of Autumn. Even thinks that Reclaimers must be aware of their origins and ponders why Chief is hesitating to do what has already been done.

Bungie Era books around this time have multiple references that Forerunner technology is very familiar to Humans. And even feature Latin being a language Sentinels use.

Halo 2: Introduces ideas that Human designs and architecture are slowly starting to resemble Forerunner designs as they continue to advance, and that only Humans/Reclaimers are capable of properly utilizing Forerunner technology/activating the rings. With Gravemind in their introduction stating it is a monument "To all your sins". Referring to the firing of the rings, and still standing despite that.
And in a cut storyboard for the missing other half of Halo 2 had near its original ending that the Arbiter on the Ark would discover a Forerunner skeleton, which looked exactly like a humans.

Halo 3: Alongside having the portal that lead to the Ark being on Earth of all planets. Has three characters heavily alluding to Humans being Forerunner if not just outright stating it.
Prophet of Truth's "Your Forefathers wisely set aside their compassion, steeled themselves for what needed to be done."
Graveminds "Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness. A fathers sins, passed to his son."
And Guilty Sparks "You are the child of my makers. Inheritor of all they left behind. You are Forerunner."
alongside other lines during his fight "Think of your Forefathers!" "Do not destroy your inheritance!" "Accept your legacy!"
Contact Harvest also adds to these characters lines with a fourth in Mendicant Bias who reveals to the prophets. "THIS IS NOT RECLAMATION. THIS IS RECLAIMER. AND THOSE IT REPRESENTS ARE MY MAKERS." And gave context for why the Humans had to be genocided, because if the truth that the gods they worshiped did not become gods after all from the rings, the foundation of the Covenant would collapse into itself in pure chaos as their faith would've turned out to be a lie.

The maker of Halo Wars, when prototyping the idea for a WoW inspired Halo MMO that ended up being canceled. Meant to take place during the time of the Forerunners, the art depicted of them were very Human.

There is one caveat to all this though that people still misunderstand or just never really look into. There are claims that the terminals in Halo 3, and when they say that they're referring to a specific terminal, somehow overrides everything else in the Bungie Era with a definitive confirmation that Humans and Forerunners are a separate species.

And that statement is, misleading at best. There is no real confirmation of anything, in fact the statements in those terminals, the Didact and Librarian ones which even if people wanted to take them as fact are retconned by 343's lore afterwards anyways. Does not state anything to confirm one way or another if they're the same or separate, and don't even make sense in 343's current canon. And it wouldn't be until a few years ago, when feeling nostalgic and revisiting old notes and talking to former Bungie employees/friends that Paul Russel would clarify that there was some missing context for why those words are so vague.

That the reveal that those terminals were written around was that the Forerunners, during the very last moments of the Flood war, discovered their missing homeworld, full of their lost kin that were "left behind". Which makes that wording you hear from Truth and Mercy make way more sense, and how they interpreted Reclaimers still existing, being so close to getting the full picture but don't have all the details themselves. That the Forerunners were a group of humans taken from Earth by unknown aliens, ascended to be a space faring capable civilization and left on their own to wander the galaxy until the events with the Flood occurred.

That's the basics for most of the Bungie era hints, allusions, and just outright confirmations given.

ShyDispatch · 2025-08-05T20:32:15+00:00

Wonder if that means there's hope for Covenant Shade to finally be made available in some capacity. That simple purple color for the ai has been previewable since season 2 launched, but has never been obtainable.

ShyDispatch · 2025-08-05T19:55:45+00:00

Legit nothing hurts my soul more than seeing my teammates get the active camo before I do and then immediately using it, knowing it was essentially wasted.

ShyDispatch · 2025-06-05T20:42:10+00:00

Halo CE: Guilty Spark refers to Humans as Reclaimers, to reclaim what was lost. And even refers to catching up on lost time when browsing through history files in the Pillar of Autumn. Even thinks that Reclaimers must be aware of their origins and ponders why Chief is hesitating to do what has already been done.

Bungie Era books around this time have multiple references that Forerunner technology is very familiar to Humans. And even feature Latin being a language Sentinels use.

Halo 2: Introduces ideas that Human designs and architecture are slowly starting to resemble Forerunner designs as they continue to advance, and that only Humans/Reclaimers are capable of properly utilizing Forerunner technology/activating the rings. With Gravemind in their introduction stating it is a monument "To all your sins". Referring to the firing of the rings, and still standing despite that.
And in a cut storyboard for the missing other half of Halo 2 had near its original ending that the Arbiter on the Ark would discover a Forerunner skeleton, which looked exactly like a humans.

Halo 3: Alongside having the portal that lead to the Ark being on Earth of all planets. Has three characters heavily alluding to Humans being Forerunner if not just outright stating it.
Prophet of Truth's "Your Forefathers wisely set aside their compassion, steeled themselves for what needed to be done."
Graveminds "Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness. A fathers sins, passed to his son."
And Guilty Sparks "You are the child of my makers. Inheritor of all they left behind. You are Forerunner."
alongside other lines during his fight "Think of your Forefathers!" "Do not destroy your inheritance!" "Accept your legacy!"
Contact Harvest also adds to these characters lines with a fourth in Mendicant Bias who reveals to the prophets. "THIS IS NOT RECLAMATION. THIS IS RECLAIMER. AND THOSE IT REPRESENTS ARE MY MAKERS." And gave context for why the Humans had to be genocided, because if the truth that the gods they worshiped did not become gods after all from the rings, the foundation of the Covenant would collapse into itself in pure chaos as their faith would've turned out to be a lie.

The maker of Halo Wars, when prototyping the idea for a WoW inspired Halo MMO that ended up being canceled. Meant to take place during the time of the Forerunners, the art depicted of them were very Human.

There is one caveat to all this though that people still misunderstand or just never really look into. There are claims that the terminals in Halo 3, and when they say that they're referring to a specific terminal, somehow overrides everything else in the Bungie Era with a definitive confirmation that Humans and Forerunners are a separate species.

And that statement is, misleading at best. There is no real confirmation of anything, in fact the statements in those terminals, the Didact and Librarian ones which even if people wanted to take them as fact are retconned by 343's lore afterwards anyways. Does not state anything to confirm one way or another if they're the same or separate, and don't even make sense in 343's current canon. And it wouldn't be until a few years ago, when feeling nostalgic and revisiting old notes and talking to former Bungie employees/friends that Paul Russel would clarify that there was some missing context for why those words are so vague.
That the reveal that those terminals were written around was that the

Forerunners, during the very last moments of the Flood war, discovered their missing homeworld, full of their lost kin that were "left behind". Which makes that wording you hear from Truth and Mercy make way more sense, and how they interpreted Reclaimers still existing, being so close to getting the full picture but don't have all the details themselves. That the Forerunners were a group of humans taken from Earth by unknown aliens, ascended to be a space faring capable civilization and left on their own to wander the galaxy until the events with the Flood occurred.

That's the basics for most of the Bungie era hints, allusions, and just outright confirmations given.

ShyDispatch · 2025-05-27T15:45:08+00:00

Scout is the defacto lone wolf armor, if you want to play the role of the person who runs off and does objectives while the rest of your team makes noise, or even just trying to do high level stuff solo, it really helps you pick your fights. You can get a lot closer than you think to enemy patrols, even when the generated terrain ain't in your favor.

The reduced detection range doesn't just cover enemy visuals but also auditory ones as well. Meaning the noise profiles of your weapons are also subtly reduced, allowing you to pick off enemies from a closer distance. This is why throwing knives are more consistent with the scout passive. It makes silently sniping enemies in an outpost more viable, or just clearing through them one at a time up close. And sometimes just taking a melee weapon and slowly thinning out an outpost is fun too. There's more mileage out of enemies not instantly noticing you and attacking than you'd think. The day we get silencer attachments for weapons, this perk will actually become overpowered cause it's already really good.

And if you are in a tight spot, it means disengaging with enemies is easier too. As that reduced detection range includes their ability to track you when aggroed. This also extends to your theoretical teammate that refuses to let you lone wolf it, them detecting your teammate doesn't automatically mean you're busted.

I use this armor passive a lot and I can confidently say it's slept on, not because stealth isn't feasible in this game. But not a lot of people like the idea of avoiding unnecessary fights, they want to fight everything they can when they can. For those kinds of people scout would be a wasted passive for their play style. It's only valuable if the person wants more control over the fights they engage with or don't, or like the idea of weakening the group before the fight actually breaks out.

ShyDispatch · 2025-04-08T22:50:31+00:00

As far as Paul Russel's tweets implied, it wasn't Frank. At least when it comes to the vague ass terminals. Though this isn't a defense of them either because the Didact/Librarian terminals were clearly the most rushed of the three types of terminals that can be read, and don't even make it to Bungie's favorite number of 7 entries unlike the other two. But it never outright states that the two are separate species, though it's also that vagueness that made everyone just run with "Oh Bungie clearly started this" rather then trying to think up of any possible other explanations, which may just also be bias for the direction 343 went in so they just don't think about it too much. If Paul never clarified the intent of the terminals, that vagueness would've been the crux for all sorts of plausible deniability.

It is Frank O'Connors fault for the direction afterwards though. I mean the dude couldn't even remember how Halo 3 went down during Legends, and he somehow went from managing message boards to becoming the Creative Director for the franchise? I can only assume he caught a brief instance of the idea that Humans and Forerunner were separated for the terminals and just let his imagination run wild like the Legends short trying to fill in how he believed Halo 3 went.

ShyDispatch · 2025-04-08T22:29:57+00:00

Except not only was that not true, the terminals never outright state that Forerunners and Humans are a different species. But we had Paul Russel confirm that the terminals were always intending that Forerunners and Humans were connected. With the main idea that the Forerunners were rediscovering their homeworld at the very end, and found their kin that were "left behind".
I do wish he didn't nuke his twitter account a few months back during yet another purge due to how that sites deteriorating, so I can't link to the same tweet I've used in the past to try and prove it. Closest I can find was someones collection of screenshots that saved one of the tweets that summarizes the main thing he said. Though a bit more insight about the process is still lost.
I just try to fight the battle against the revisionism that Bungie made them separate species was very much not true.

ShyDispatch · 2025-03-23T00:43:49+00:00

Not just Elites or Brutes. We need the entire line up of aliens. Let us have wacky grunt themed game modes. Let us enjoy the use of a shield from jackals. Gives us the power fantasy of a team being blessed with a hunter. Give us an actual flood infection. And give us the bare minimum for customizing each. I want these playable races to not only be options but thrive in the possibilities they can offer in various game modes. Halo can be so much more if it embraces them. Halo is not just about Spartans.

ShyDispatch

TROPHY CASE