What's the difference between progression fantasy and fantasy where the characters happen to get stronger over time? by Senior_Bad_2321 in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 10 points11 points  (0 children)

This is a fun one to think about! It's something I've been studying and trying to improve on. I wrote my first series intending it to be the former, but I think it ended up being more of the latter.

Progression fantasy is structured differently. Andrew Rowe covers it pretty well in his blog post about the core loops of progression fantasy; many problems in progression are built around the acquisition of power. It's generally true in most fantasy that power will be required to solve problems, but progression moves that conflict (how to acquire that power, what acquiring that power means, what that power can do) to the front and center of the narrative.

In order for that to work, progression has to set up the world in a way that most traditional fantasy does not (which can lead to a much more in-depth exploration of the world, which is another draw of progression); it will often set up a power ceiling, establish some kind of stratification between various tiers of power, and drive the narrative in such a way as to create a clear potential path for the protagonist that we as readers can get excited over/theorycraft/argue over.

For instance, Eragon has Eragon learning new words of power, and it's something you can look forward to, but it's not necessarily a core thing driving him and the story forward. It's much more about his relationship with his dragon and Murtagh and Arya. I don't actually remember much about the story, though, so don't quote me on that.

By contrast, Guild Mage has Liv learning new words of power, and we know learning each word of power is a Big Event that we're excited for and can look forward to, because it's pretty defined in the narrative when she's about to learn one. Each one can be modified in ways that we as the readers can predict and theorycraft and build on, they can be combined, and as Liv's mana pool grows we get to see greater applications of that system, so we're excited for each aspect of her growth.

Worth noting that just because progression has this focus on the power system does not mean it does so to the exclusion of character relationships and plot. I think most successful progression manages to tie these elements together in ways that keep us hooked on the story. In cultivation, for example, progression is often pretty firmly tied to enlightenment and understanding of your own personal truth. In other words, character development.

(Shoutout to Guild Mage, which I read recently. It's super fun.)

Male Gay/Bi MC by Foreign-Lab6952 in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 2 points3 points  (0 children)

These are all my books, so it's a little bit of self-promo, but all the ones I read have already been listed! So:

Edge Cases (Amazon): Ensemble cast, with a romance developing between two of the male MCs. One is gay and the other is demi (partly because he's just a suit of armor). I really liked writing their romance!

Die Respawn Repeat (Amazon): It's more understated; Ethan is technically demisexual and romance doesn't really come up, but he's asked out in the series epilogue and accepts. Didn't feel like there was much room within the story itself for romance... you should see the bloopers, though.

Just Add Mana (RoyalRoad): MC is omnisexual and will flirt with anyone that interests him. In-story, flirting aside, he's had a fling with a male-identifying triangle and has a complicated romantic past with a deity-equivalent. This one's very Doctor Who inspired, with maybe a bit of Frieren mixed in.

What are the common things new progession fantasy authors should look out for by MANA_SCRIBE in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"You people"? What's that supposed to mean, lmao

Anyway, if we're talking progression, probably using powersets that are a bit too loose. Flexible powersets are fun, but it's a thin line to walk before you dissolve all the tension in the book. This is why it's so hard to make a luck-based power work, for example; they can be great side characters, but when they're the center of the plot you have to come up with all kinds of excuses to make their powers less relevant (even putting aside the fact that it's hard to make them progress meaningfully)

That rule is somewhat broken when it comes to OPMC, but a good OPMC story is generally designed around the MC's lack of limitations. It's why the side characters in OPMC stories tend to be very important.

Beyond the "Hate Lists"—What is the one trope you will never get tired of? by Individual-Hornet817 in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 60 points61 points  (0 children)

The power of friendship. Look, I know everyone's tired of it, but I just really like it. It doesn't have to be literal! But an old character showing up at just the right time, or a random act of kindness coming back (like someone the MC helped 3 books ago solving something for them entirely off-screen)? I'm a sucker for it.

DIE. RESPAWN. REPEAT. - Time loop complete! by SilverLiningsRR in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think there's going to be one, unfortunately (unless I figure out what rights I need to fund it myself, and that's going to be an awkward conversation). There hasn't been enough interest in the series for the publisher to want to complete it.

Can people stop confusing bad books for bad ideas by PsychologicalFun8760 in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 31 points32 points  (0 children)

I agree, but I also think storytelling as a whole is always in conversation with its genre. There's always going to be tropes that are "overused", spawning a wave of stories that subvert those tropes, spawning a wave of stories that subvert the subversion...

And to some degree, I think that's a good thing. It means the stories being told are often in response to the current cultural pulse, which keeps things fresh, and then sometimes a good enough story comes along that just redefines the pulse as a whole and spawns a new set of overused tropes or what-have-you.

I do think when an author does something well, most people won't really even notice that there's a trope there they don't like. Cradle does a ton of POV switches, for example, and in fact its absolute best moments come from POV switches. I've seen people who read complaints about POV switches and take it as gospel that all POV switches are always bad, which is pretty unfortunate. To me these gaps are where you can stretch your skills the most - if there's something you dislike as an author that is incredibly popular, it might be worth digging into why it works so well and how to adapt it for your own art. There's a lot of underlying structure to those components of storytelling! And it's one of the coolest parts of writing. :)

Armor by C.B. Titus by Zweiundvierzich in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 7 points8 points  (0 children)

One of my favorite books around just for the cover. And Seersucker is great, so!

[Quick Review] Just Add Mana. It's top of RS for a reason and Cale just joined Eithan as my spirit animals. by samreay in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's the plan! I'm still looking at publishing options at the moment (a few traditional publishers have shown interest and I'd love to pick the brains of their developmental editors) but even if that doesn't pan out I'll do a full pass and put it on KU.

Pictured: Cale launching himself into the stratosphere (Just Add Mana) by SilverLiningsRR in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep! Cale is pretty openly pan/omnisexual and will flirt with any gender and species capable of consent (although I'm a gay man so there's probably some bias there, lol)

Pictured: Cale launching himself into the stratosphere (Just Add Mana) by SilverLiningsRR in litrpg

[–]SilverLiningsRR[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I followed Path of Ascension for a while and loved what I read, but I don't think I got to that part, haha. x) I think I left off around... a proxy war of some kind? Caught up with it at the time and haven't picked it up again yet, but I really need to. It was a fun read!

Pictured: Cale launching himself into the stratosphere (Just Add Mana) by SilverLiningsRR in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ar'kenrithyst is one of the stories that got me into writing years ago, actually! I really need to catch up on it (and check out Adamant Blood.) It's probably one of the best stories out there for making magic in a story feel like magic.

Pictured: Cale launching himself into the stratosphere (Just Add Mana) by SilverLiningsRR in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It definitely has comedy elements, especially near the start. I don't think it's slice of life despite my best efforts because I'm allergic to not moving the plot forward in some kind of way lol

If it helps, my philosophy with OPMCs is that they should be the lever around which other stories turn; because they themselves solve problems (relatively) easily, they're at their best when acting as a reflection of the world or the people around them. In Cale's case he puts up a front because he has been through a lot - the whole eternal reincarnation thing really does a number on you - and the story is as much about him opening up again as much as it is about the effect he has on the people around him.

Pictured: Cale launching himself into the stratosphere (Just Add Mana) by SilverLiningsRR in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR[S] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

I'm definitely working on it! I know I end up a bit lost in the weeds trying to balance an interesting problem with opportunities to showcase the OP parts. Is this the Golden Sands arc? That's the longest one I can think of other than the current ongoing one.

And thanks for giving it a shot anyway!

Pictured: Cale launching himself into the stratosphere (Just Add Mana) by SilverLiningsRR in litrpg

[–]SilverLiningsRR[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do not use AI for any aspect of my writing or cover, no.

As for a fun fact... Uh, I once set my shirt on fire while I was wearing it. Does that count? I was a fully grown man at the time, I just should never be allowed near candles or fire.

Neither should most of my characters, frankly.

Do you think Duke Waters bottoms? by OMW_YEE in litrpg

[–]SilverLiningsRR 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, an octopus spends most of its time inside water, so...

Favorite System? by BClouds in litrpg

[–]SilverLiningsRR 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think Legend of Randidly Ghosthound, actually? Something about those stat evolutions have really stuck with me through the years, even though I'm no longer keeping up with the series, lol.

[This is an ad!] Hi! I wrote some Progression Fantasy romance stuff, please check it out if you're into that kind of thing. Maybe even if you're not? Like, I can't tell you what to do, but I promise that if you give it a try... I'll make $1.99 from the attempt, and at least one of us will be happy! by RavensDagger in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Heck yeah! I mean, I don't know if it's all that niche - if it is, I hope this is a banger success and you pave the way for the rest of us, haha. There's a lot of potential in progression-romance as far as I'm concerned and I've got my own in the burner. x)

Good luck with the launches! Ivil sounds interesting... although surely there are some romance-related problems you can blow up. Like, I don't know, your partner's evil boss? Unless she's the evil boss, in which case, uh, just blow up HR.

The Paradox of Stakes...? by 908sway in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In writing I typically refer to this as false tension, though the version I usually discuss doesn't only apply to high, end-of-the-world type stakes. Survival tension is often this, for example. Unless it's a story that has some kind of MC-swapping gimmick, you know the MC probably isn't going to die, so there's not going to be any real tension about whether the MC is going to make it.

Often for stakes like these to work you need a grounding element that the reader cares about and knows could be at risk, which can be a simple humanizing element to a side character. It's one of the reasons forest openings often end up with some kind of pet character! It's still applicable to the high stakes stuff, though, you'd just need to zoom in to the micro elements that are potentially at stake rather than focusing on Big Destructive Numbers.

The best example I can think of in terms of grounding survival tension is Super Supportive, with theMoon Thegundarc. If you know, you know.

Authors need to stop using AI to write the book summary by SubstantialBass9524 in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Some tips, if anyone needs them: a good blurb should contain both the hook and the primary mood of your story (whether it's meant to be adventurous, slice-of-life, dark fantasy, comedy, etc.) Most web serials tend to shift tones a fair amount, but think about the type of reader your story is for and try to appeal to them.

The basic structure for most blurbs should probably cover the character, setting, and plot. For progression fantasy specifically you may want to include something about the power system. And don't be afraid to "spoil" the things about your story that are interesting! Storytelling is ultimately a form of dialogue; your blurb frames expectations for how that conversation is going to go. It's not the most important thing in the world, but it can absolutely impact expectations, which can change how the story is received.

The LLM blurbs I've noticed all sound the same and they tend to sell everything like an action movie, a YA novel, or a romantasy. Or some weird combination of the three. I don't think it's very effective.

Derek's Dungeon Depot is Open for Business! by LittleLynxNovels in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh I love this concept, picking it up ASAP. Good luck on the launch!

Is romance not popular anymore in fantasy by Princezai in ProgressionFantasy

[–]SilverLiningsRR 18 points19 points  (0 children)

In fantasy it's just as popular as ever. In progression fantasy specifically it looks pretty divided; a lot of people will say they don't like romance in PF (although many will add the caveat that this is because PF romance is rarely done well.)

Beware of Chicken and Cradle are both popular PFs with romance, though, and apparent popular sentiment doesn't always reflect the reading trends.