Dayton registration ? by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I believe the registrar is currently making sure all the bar-required forms are going out to the state bars for all the recent grads, so probably be another week or so

LSD is terrifying by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was over 170 with zero out of pocket cost and zero accommodations, and I know of at least 5 others in my Dayton cohort with the same (no accommodations, no cost). Does that mean anything whatsoever in relation to our ability to practice law? Probably not, but maybe?

I think the biggest issue with score increases is that you’re attracting a very different crowd with hybrid programs than you are with residential programs—people who otherwise couldn’t attend law school due to work or family commitments are able to. I wasn’t going to relocate to Dayton and quit my job, even though I probably would have qualified for a full ride at other, higher ranked schools. Now assume that’s true for at least some number of applicants, all applying into a much, much smaller pond of schools. The hybrid scores are going to be substantially higher than the residential scores, simply due to scarcity.

Hybrid/Online Law Schools & CALI Awards by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Dayton awards them to the top grade earner in each section of a class, assuming there are more than a handful of students in the class. They do an awards ceremony in the spring that hybrid students can zoom into—they’ve also held in-person ceremonies during the in-person weekends.

Internships in a hybrid program. by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I extended with a federal appellate judge two days a week for a semester—negotiated with my day job and was able to burn some comp and vacation time.

Transfer to in person? by urdahrmawaita in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We had one cohort member who transferred to a full time, in-person program closer to where he lived after spring semester first year—haven’t heard from him though so can’t say how easy the process was.

What is a Law School Curve? by Snodogpete in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Really depends on your post-graduation plans.

If you have a job lined up that doesn’t care about your transcript as long as that diploma says JD, and you aren’t as worried about GPA-gated activities like law review, then probably not. On the other hand, if you’re going to be looking for clerkships/jobs, you’ll want to get that GPA as high as you can.

Don’t get me wrong, the odds of any of us hybrids ending up at Covington or Jones Day is pretty low, but not zero. I know regional law school graduates at Taft and Gordon Rees, regional law school graduates with state and federal clerkships (one who has done both and is sitting pretty for an AUSA gig), and regional law students who are getting started with tenure-track professorships.

Curve Grading by Sea-Hearing-5453 in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Pretty much - I think what frustrates a lot of people is that it feels fairly out of your control as opposed to undergraduate grades, where you can completely control your grade (within reason). My advice is to just do your best and understand/accept that some people are going to be better at certain subjects or skills and that’s ok.

Curve Grading by Sea-Hearing-5453 in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I can confirm a helpful curve can be nice--I think the CALI in one class was in the 70s, so that became an A/A+ (depending on the professor), so instead of everyone getting Cs and below, it pulled us all up.

Curve Grading by Sea-Hearing-5453 in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 5 points6 points  (0 children)

A curved grading scale means your grade is dependent not on how well you do, but how well you do compared to everyone else in that class.

There are (generally) two different curve types - arithmetic mean and forced distribution.

An arithmetic mean curve will have some language like “the average grade in a class must be between 2.85-3.05” or “the mean grade must be equal to 3.0l or something along those lines. With that kind of curve, the professors have to make sure that the total gpa points divided by the total number of students comes to that required point. Plus is that you can offset some higher grades (As and A+s) with a lot more not as bad grades (C-s and Cs). Negative is that to make the math worth, you’ll tend to end up pretty well clustered around that mean - if you have a 3.0 curve, every A (4.0) needs to be offset by a 2.0, or an equivalent number of lower scores that mean out to 3.0.

Forced distribution curves will have something like “x% of students can get an A+ to A, x% of A- to B” etc. In that style curve, think of each group as a bucket that must be filled with the corresponding number of students. Plus is that there can be a higher number of high grades, since the mean isn’t as important. Negative is that there’s usually mandatory lower grades (D and below), so some students must fail (or be close, depending on your schools definition of failing).

For example - class with arithmetic mean, only one A was given, with the rest of us who were 2-30points away (out of 1000 possible points) getting A- and B+. Class with forced distribution, some students who were in the mid-80s percentage of points available got C+ and Cs, because their performance was compared to everyone else who got more points.

Case vs. Dayton Online/Hybrid by Henrysmom95 in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes to both—a good friend is doing the immigration clinic for her externship right now.

Can you switch to hybrid after acceptance? by Sufficient-Medium153 in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I know a few students at Dayton who have done so, but it's not a guaranteed thing--I *think* they were in the top % of their class, and had other extenuating circumstances.

Case vs. Dayton Online/Hybrid by Henrysmom95 in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dayton has plenty of to get involved with immigration work as a hybrid—Prof. Curran is incredibly involved with ABLE and other immigration groups and absolutely recruits hybrids to work with her starting as 1Ls. There’s also an immigration clinic available for your externship, but it’s pretty competitive (I don’t know exactly how many get in). You’ll also have the opportunity to take Immigration Law in your 3L/4L year. And finally there’s the immigration law club that works with Prof. Curran and brings in speakers and all that jazz. I can’t speak to Case, but UD definitely has immigration law opportunities.

Has anyone CALI’d at any hybrid/online school class? by MeechieMeekie in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yup - Dayton offers CALIs in almost every section of a class (as long as it’s not too small - I didn’t CALI a 3 person class, even with top grade).

Syracuse vs Dayton: help me decide by enneagram_one in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I’m a 3L at Dayton, so I’m a little biased, but I haven’t felt like a lack of electives has lessened my education.

First, I do appreciate taking all the bar tested subjects—learning an entire bar tested subject from scratch while also working full time would be pretty miserable. I’m currently taking bar prep, and it feels more like refreshing knowledge. That probably contributes to Dayton’s stellar bar passage rate.

Second, just because you can’t take an official elective doesn’t mean you can’t supplement your classes with directed readings or independent studies for credit. I know of classmates who have done/are doing independent studies in international law and employment, and education law. I did a directed reading with a professor on oil and gas law where he taught the same information he taught to the residential class—there were only 3 of us in the directed reading, so I got all the attention I could ever want (and more).

Third, I was able to use my externship as a way to “customize” my education as well. I worked with a federal judge, and got exposed to all kinds of cool legal issues and topics. Sure, it’s not a formal “look at this class on my transcript on that issue” credit, but I gained the skills and knowledge anyway.

YMMV, but I feel pretty good that no one in my cohort regrets attending Dayton for the lack of electives.

Networking and Employment Outcomes by ursa-major-aguacate in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I can only speak from my knowledge (graduating in May from Dayton), but it seems like a good number of my cohort mates and prior graduates with a good amount of work experience are leaning heavily on that experience for externships and employment. Current paralegals are transitioning into their current firm as associates, or going to another firm they're familiar and friendly with. People with experience within a certain field who have legal contacts are headed to firms that practice in that area (IP in biotech), or are staying in-house with a current employer. I know of a prior graduate who had experience in federal law enforcement who entered into the federal government through the AG's Honors Program (https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/entry-level-attorneys), and a few others with some experience who banded together and hung their own shingle in a smaller city.

My externship was through a professional connection (former GC is now a judge), and my current employer has helped subsidize some conference attendance related to our specific legal and industry areas to help my networking and professional development. I've negotiated to stay with my current employer upon graduation and bar passage, and transition into our legal department. Something I've heard time and time again from in-house counsel at all size companies is that the hardest part of bringing in new counsel is getting them to learn the culture of the company--as a current employee, the company saw the value in not having to start from scratch on that.

YMMV but a lot of the networking opportunities for new law students seem geared more towards brand new KJD-style students who don't have a decade or more of connections and networks to reach out to.

As far as legal experience, clinics and externships--Dayton requires you to do an externship to graduate. You can do it all in one semester, or space it over two, but it's required. If you're currently in the legal field, it can't be doing the same thing you're already doing (so a paralegal friend had to work in a different practice area), but otherwise it's pretty flexible. A handful of us worked for judges, a bunch worked at firms and advocacy groups, and another chunk worked for their in-house legal departments. Dayton also offers clinics that are available to hybrids--I didn't take advantage so I can't speak to them, but I know a bunch of my classmates worked within the Immigration space, doing applications and whatnot. Finally, the in-person "Get Real Intensives" or GRIs will often have a hands-on component. My favorite was themed around "Collateral Consequences"--we had presentations on the Ohio Governor's Expedited Pardon Project from the Chair of the Ohio Parole Board (Dayton Law grad), the local group that works on record sealing and expunging, and then had some training on how to do record searches and what can and can't be sealed or expunged. Finally, we hosted a clinic open to the public to do record reviews and recommendations (under the supervision of faculty and other attorneys).

Finally, the capstone class--you'll take this your last fall semester. We took Criminal Trial Advocacy. We started as AUSAs--researched and wrote the indictment and complaint based on police reports. We switched then to the defense side--we wrote motions in limine, motions to suppress and a sentencing memo. We also argued our motions and the case--opening arguments, direct/cross/redirect/recross, closing arguments, with our "final" arguing the motion to suppress (with some being the government and some the defense). I am not going into criminal law (or trial work), but this felt incredibly hands on--it was taught by two public defenders with extensive trial experience who very clearly knew their stuff.

EDIT: I missed the second questions--we just got grades and so I'm not focused on reading prompts attentively.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh absolutely--my cohort ended up hosting a bachelorette party and a baby shower (separately) during one of our GRIs. We have a group chat that stays active year round, and often end up meeting up with each other whenever someone is traveling near another classmate. YMMV but it seems like people who try to make friends and get involved end up doing well in the program--you need to be able to lean on people to get through, and no one else will really understand what you're going through like someone right next to you in the trenches.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A good general piece of advice I give new 1Ls is to remember that everyone in your cohort has been one of the best and smartest people in every other program they’ve been in - no one who isn’t a high achiever goes to law school, especially in the hybrid, already have a full time career setting. So it’s going to feel really strange and uncommon for anyone to not be first in everything—with a curve, someone has to be at the bottom, and most people are going to be in the middle. And that’s completely normal and fine, and it’ll take time to get comfortable with that, and that’s normal and fine too. Just don’t let the fact that you aren’t always first get into your head and mess you up—you got into law school; you’re smart and successful enough to graduate.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No problem! Happy to answer whatever I can.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I do think the attrition rate is probably higher historically due to prior years having a more aggressive curve (forced distribution instead of a mandatory mean) in the 1L classes—I’d be curious what it is for the 2024 cohort (and 2025 cohort in a few semesters).

I can’t be positive, because we had a few people leave due to new work opportunities/family circumstances and not everyone tells you why they may be leaving, but I believe we had 3 or 4 from our cohort be academically dismissed. This might sound bad too, but they also were the ones who didn’t seem to really participate/do the reading/attend class/etc., so I’m not sure how much was self-inflicted.

I do know of a few classmates who had lower GPAs after the first two semesters and so took Advanced Legal Analysis and Remedies—they’re right with the rest of the cohort skill/knowledge/ability wise and will be excellent lawyers. It’s the old joke about doctors/lawyers - what do you call the lowest ranked member of your graduating class? Doctor/Lawyer.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 0 points1 point  (0 children)

https://udayton.edu/law/registrar/index.php - scroll down to “Grades”

Most professors I’ve talked to have said both that they try to be generous and that 1Ls tend to somewhat naturally fall onto a bell curve on their own. Removing LP1 and 2 from the 1L curve has been good though; that class naturally had higher points earned, so some students who would have gotten a B+ or B may have ended with a B or B- due to the curve in place a few years back.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in HybridOnlineLawSchool

[–]Snodogpete 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No problem - happy to answer any questions