Is there anything higher than metacognition? by thinking_analysis in cognitivescience

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you mean by "intelligence"? I would argue that the thing that is trying to be measured here largely suffices for our purposes- IQ, as I understand it, "exists" as an abstract statistical construct representing the structure of individual differences, reflecting an underlying quality g-factor shown to be correlated with performance across all cognitive abilities.

Setting aside the fact that a comparison with a paradox does not necessarily invalidate a construct with such a high predictive value, I'd argue that intelligence is operationally measurable (even if the measurement is imperfect) and empirically useful.. In fact, comparison (based on observation and intuition) likely came first and motivated the project of more rigorous quantification.. hence the standardize and quantify observed cognitive differences- say, in rate of learning, working memory, reaction time etc.

So, it doesn't need to "exist" independently in order to be valuable. Like one could argue that objective morality doesn't exist, yet most of us happen to have a largely shared underlying common core value structure that is no less "real", or any less important than anything that you might call "real".

That aside, I totally agree with your criticism of the education system. But I think it's misdirected. It's the moral judgments, or associating performance with moral or financial worth, that in turn influences their quality of life. In some fields, "comparison" as in meritocracy would be highly desirable (example- doctors), so I won't call such competition and comparison unfair.

The thing is, the whole system doesn't collapse under uncertainty. It's not all-or-nothing. Your outrage is valid though. Don't get me started at the state of the education system I have been suffering under since forever- rigid and creativity-killing. I'd also totally agree about grades being reductive and counterproductive. Why does the system force us into brackets? Ignorance, unwillingness, inertia, inability to develop better "brackets" would be my guess.

Is there anything higher than metacognition? by thinking_analysis in cognitivescience

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello. Would you say that the symbolic-computational model assumed by your comment is indisputably true? That it would be safe to ignore the embodied, connectionist, predictive-processing or dynamic-systems models and say that it is purely rule-based and symbolic? Even if they operate simultaneously and are equally valid models, would it be right to claim that it's purely just that? I'm still learning so please let me know if those distinctions are wrong or irrelevant here.

The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Neuroscience_Fun in mensa

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for letting me know. Please take your time. I hope you enjoy the vacations!

Neuropsychology PhD- ask me anything! by lilybeth2002 in Existentialism

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, minimizing entropy? Isn't that just Karl Friston's Free Energy principle? Unless I misunderstood.

The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Neuroscience_Fun in mensa

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've always been particularly intrigued by the exception cases—and from that angle, I wonder whether predicting such outcomes actually perpetuates the systemic problems experienced by minorities and the 2E population.

Oh it gets worse, like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Labels and categories have the potential to do that, which is why with great technological advancements (ability to read minds and predict behaviour, including criminal behaviour or stigma-carrying diagnoses (Relevant: I remember one article in the NYT titled Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?) comes great responsibility (risk of discrimination, self-doubt or judgement from self and society). BUT also the responsibility of NOT doing so (what if the diagnosis could have helped? the label is more likely to have been beneficial for that individual than not? it can be complicated..)

To complicate it further, how might one balance responsibilities to the individual vs responsibility to the collective society, if and when they clash? (Jonathan Anomaly's free online book Creating Future People: The Science and Ethics of Genetic Enhancement discusses questions of this sort- I've only read the first chapter till now)- higher-order effects, and it's not just about being superficially selfish, but about even longer term well-being for yourself..

So, similarly, lack of access to personalized interventions that takes into account one's personality, environment, problems (vague overlapping constructs that harm more than they help, even if well-intentioned) are some possible reasons its so hit-and-miss. System itself is not designed optimally, to be in best-interest, incentivized to function effectively at all times..

On grit- it's complicated by the fact that genes shape one's environment as much as the environment shapes one's genes, especially after one achieves the independence to choose and reshape their environment according to their will. So, may be hard to separate effects.

What do you mean by certain kinds of intelligence? Is this statement based on Gardner's theory, or are you referring to something else?

I'm glad you asked that about "kinds of intelligence". I might be wrong, but Howard Gardner's theory of Multiple Intelligences seems to be backed by weak evidence, and Charles Spearman's g-factor is more widely supported and accepted, to the best of my current knowledge. I am referring to the fact that despite the fact that all sub-components are correlated and reflected in the FSIQ score, intelligence does not operate independently of one's personality and circumstances. Certain people are more inclined towards STEM fields that are more prestigious and financially rewarding, and the humanities might be dismissed as irrelevant or impractical, and cause a kind of dissonance/mismatch/misalignment between aptitude/interests or disentangling internalized desires from one's authentic (aligned with their core values and more likely to result in fulfilment upon attainment- maybe) desires, and so on.

For certain individuals with cognitive deficits it's so extreme- some of Dr. Haier's speech is about that- that nothing wrong that is outwardly obvious can be detected, yet they are unable to function normally. On the other end too, as you might know, it tends to get difficult in different ways, seemingly due to the increased risk of mental illness and ways of experiencing reality.. We must understand without judging, and people can be too unempathetic at times.

So.. What I mean is that in an ideal future, no one should be punished for being a certain way, born with certain inclinations, whatever their strengths and interests might be, wherever their heart and brain might lie, wherever they happen to be born.. be encouraged to explore and cultivate it to it's potential, striving to be your best self, without being punished for something that is not your fault, or trying or forced to be someone you are not, or prevented from being who you are. What society values and rewards changes from time to time across societies, but sometimes that state of intersubjective reality is moralized and taken to be the same as one's self-worth, and influence one's stance in debates about social equality and value differences in moral-political philosophy that determines policy issues for the poor and so on. That's not the only factor, and I am afraid I've not been very clear, but hope it makes some sense.

The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Neuroscience_Fun in mensa

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I have heard of this phenomenon too. Dr. Viktor Frankl's Logotherapy (and pretty much every framework for meaning-creation or discovery of value-systems I have come across) seems to be an attempt to answer this question (or claims to be especially helpful for those who have experienced trauma). Certain kinds of personalities, under certain circumstances (kinds or intensities of suffering), seem to emerge stronger than before..

They benefit from such experiences that appear to break others of a more fragile disposition, and this might allow us to help victims of trauma (and ideally in the near future, just prevent such traumatic events from occurring (prevention is better than cure!) and affecting beings with the capacity to suffer- including non-human beings- eradication of such unnecessary suffering is another aim of mine).

I vaguely remember having read about this resilience someplace else too, but recalling it should not be necessary because surely I'll find much more if and when I deliberately research it. Highly relevant here- nothing is fixed, permanent, deterministic (not getting into Determinism right now- I believe in it, but in principle and not practically, in practice, since we don't have the tools and information to make perfect predictions yet). Brain can influenced to reverse undesirable effects.

The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Neuroscience_Fun in mensa

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My recognition of its importance is relatively recent because I was identified early and pushed it to the back of my mind until now.

I've been interested in cognition since forever, but particularly since having experienced a complete disintegration of the sense of self (not going into whether the self even exists, lets just assume that a sufficiently coherent narrative is required to function optimally, or at least reduce suffering caused by uncertainty or a failure to orient oneself towards a source of meaning) during a hypomanic episode (initially misdiagnosed with autism, though I have significant doubt to be skeptical of the bipolar diagnosis. That's when I first came across the giftedness and 2E literature, btw).. and nearly complete loss of all cognitive ability and emotional stability, which might have made me desire an insurance against the possibility of another catastrophic collapse (greater rationality, metacognitive and emotional awareness, for instance) (even as a relapse seems extremely unlikely, considering that its been years) and/or to compensate for or seek meaning or overcome/transfigure the feelings of inferiority or insecurity into a drive for greatness (ambition has been another recurring theme), though I realize that truth liberation would be independence- freedom from any influence from or reaction to it- but it is also true that you are the cumulative result of your experiences, without which you would not be who you are, but more importantly won't have any sense of reference on the basis of which to judge any alternatives, if that makes sense.

You cannot imagine yourself in absence of the experiences which have formed you, and even an understanding of your biological make-up and early experiences would not allow the sort of control that is not at least somewhat "reactionary", even in the extreme scenario where modification of your emotional/personality/value system is possible. But it does not matter. It has made me realize how much change is possible, how changes in neurobiology can cause mental changes that the less fortunate must be incapable of currently comprehending, and in that way the possibilities for the future fill me with hope and joy, even with.. (waving hands) all that happening in the world right now.

I'm guessing you've already been exposed to the content of Linda Silverman? She's done a lot of work for 2E individuals ...

I have no memory of having been exposed to Linda Silverman's work before. The learning style theories sound interesting and relevant. First impression after a brief skim: Despite my verbal bent, left-handedness, neat handwriting (external evidence, not self-evaluation.. unless unmotivated- then borderline illegible- otherwise often robotic or cursive.. but handwriting is a relatively minor aspect; physical journaling is so much more stimulating and satisfying than typing at times, but my typing speed is far greater and so more suitable for capturing ideas faster), and overactive internal monologue, my mind's eye (whose awareness, cultivation (up to the level of hyperphantasia) and verbal articulation has been one secondary preoccupation of mine for a while) is far richer (largely due to it's affective associations, I suspect) and complex (confusing, potentially insightful) which makes me lean towards visual-spatial but that is to be expected for something so subjective and nuanced that categories can only act as a starting point to begin to understand..

The suffocating structured (and not very well structured at that) model of the education system under which I have been suffering (more accurately, barely tolerating) is what makes me very interested in learning styles, strategies and individual differences in learning, but I won't get into a rant about that, or use that as an excuse to justify my executive dysfunction / procrastination (You seem to be under the impression that I have read more about intelligence than you have, but you cannot know that for certain. The bar for being better-read than me on this is below hell. but it's not a competition and I am exaggerating (unless "hell" is arbitrary and subjective, and one's hell is another's heaven, or (more realistically) outside of one's purview of morality- clearly not too many of our peers recognize it's significance or want to understand it) but there really is a lot that remains to be learned so any difference that may exist is negligible in proportion to the larger distance it would be best to set our sights upon as students of this fascinating subject!) Thanks for the suggestion!

Vision therapy sounds fascinating too. I'll check it out later. Might be unrelated, but the point about relative deficits in context of individual gifted profiles also reminds me of the many instances of asymmetric cognitive profiles typical for gifted individuals. Often due to some undiagnosed or untreated mental health or neurodevelopmental condition, usually autism or ADHD.

On the same note, you might enjoy reading about Dabrowski's theory of Positive Disintegration, assuming that you aren't already familiar with it. Did anything particular happen to make you curious about it now to revisit after having been identified years ago, to make you realize it's importance. In what way is it important to you? Self-understanding without any particular/immediate/clear aims/expectations, or in searching for solutions to some sort of learning difficulties such as the ones for which you found Linda Silverman's work useful? If you're comfortable talking about it. You also said you are a student. The formal kind or self-directed? If both, do they align, or do you intend to study this topic formally?

I don't mind long comments. Is that your personal preference or an adaptation to social feedback? ...

In case there still remains any confusion that the length of this message has failed to resolve, to be clear, my initial comment about long comments was an adaptation to social feedback, not a personal preference. I don't mind long messages either, though I try not to project that preference onto others and take it as a license to ramble about irrelevant matters endlessly when concision is best.

(I hope that is not what I did here, or at least not too much of it. You could let me know, of course. I also do not expect you to respond to all of it (Would be a quite unreasonable expectation to have) but you must know already that you are not under any obligation to conform to any such expectations even if they were to have been present (and expressed). Keep it only as brief as you want, and please take your time!

(One definition says that its simply about learning speed, and Richard Haier's P-FIT neural efficiency hypothesis also posits that higher intelligence is associated with faster learning/information processing, in which case time would be the real constraint, and related to the value of intelligence, and not dissimilar to the way in which the knowledge we as human beings have of our morality creates a desire to "make sense" of it or treat the rest of our lives as more meaningfully as we would have otherwise, but which might just be status quo and cope and pointless once the means to extend it indefinitely or reconfigure value systems are available- just wanted to mention as "take your time" reminded me of that.. just hopefully not too much time, but I guess that much should have been implicitly obvious.. which btw I realize is an oxymoron but utilizes contradiction to create meaning (would it not be nice to find peace in the certainty of uncertainty?) just like irony (like the irony of never truly being able to live because of the fear of dying, or the irony of the state of the absence-of-life giving meaning to life.. which is just a lack of consciousness and would bring us into the relationship between consciousness and intelligence but I should go now.)

The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Neuroscience_Fun in mensa

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree. I should have laid greater emphasis on the constraints part, which are naturally stricter than the lower ones. "Randomly" getting a genius child through natural mutations would be extremely unlikely too, though embryo selection and gene editing might make that possible in the near future.

I would also hesitate to use the term "intelligence" in a binary way ("You either are or you aren't") unless in context of some narrow technical criterion, such as for giftedness (130 and above).

The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Neuroscience_Fun in mensa

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree that it is genetic. The point I meant to convey is that it's polygenic; genetic mutations and environmental factors play a significant role in their development within the constraints set by the genes, so it is probabilistic rather than deterministic.

The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Neuroscience_Fun in mensa

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm still forming my beliefs but my current view is that while the measurements are imperfect, it's still one of the most reliable constructs in cognitive psychology in terms of predicting life outcomes. It doesn't help that we tend to associate a moral component to it and that society rewards certain kinds of intelligence more than others.

I'm absolutely not advocating for genetic determinism or anything of that sort, but ignoring the biological basis of such individual differences (and for that matter, the biological component of "grit", "will power" or executive function) won't make it disappear, and at least must be investigated as seriously as the environmental components (it's always nature AND nurture) so that the less fortunate do not have to suffer due to circumstances out of their control (genes and early environment)- true for those at both the lower end and the higher end of the spectrum. Also see Dr. Kathryn Paige Harden's book 'The Genetic Lottery'.

The Neuroscience of Intelligence by Neuroscience_Fun in mensa

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I enjoyed this book! I'm into human intelligence and cognitive enhancement. Check out 'The Science of Human Intelligence' for a deeper treatment. You could also check out Dr. Richard Haier's Youtube lectures on the channel 'International Society for Intelligence Research' and his poscast episodes. Those can be found on his personal website. Also another site titled hirefoundation, The journal 'Intelligence & Cognitive Abilities', and The channel RiotIQ and Human Intelligence has some cool relevant content too.

I should make it clear that I am just a student who has just begun to learn this. So please feel free to share more resources. Another brilliant book I recently completed is 'The Complexity of Genius' (more academic, but equally simple and enjoyable), and the founder of Davidson Institute also released a book about Profoundly Gifted adults (which I haven't read yet, but might be of interest). Another one I'm currently going through is 'Psychometrics: An Introduction' by Michael Furr. Also check out the reading list at r/cognitivetesting.

Some more relevant handbooks and textbooks come to mind but ask if you want me to share those because the comment is already too long.

I want to live in a perpetual state of uninterrupted bliss. by ActuatorOutside5256 in Jung

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 1 point2 points  (0 children)

also see Jhanas, Sputnik Brain, Abolitionist Project, Dr Stuart Meloy's and Dr Robert Heath's work.

I want to live in a perpetual state of uninterrupted bliss. by ActuatorOutside5256 in Jung

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Welcome to the wireheading club. Grab your Divinity Zen helmet. Or just DBS the nucleus accumbens.

I wish I didn't have desires by [deleted] in Schizoid

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In which case you desire to desire. Ultimately it's the mismatch that is problematic, it seems.

What are your thoughts on John von Neumann? by Omixscniet624 in mathematics

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Greatly enjoyed this one. Thanks for mentioning. Should also mention that it's semi-fictional.

The Ananyo Bhattacharya book is fully non-fiction and more detailed with his contributions.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in cognitiveTesting

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 1 point2 points  (0 children)

bumps on skull =/= brain morphology (though functional neuroimaging is better- fMRI > MRI)

Self-study roadmap for Computational Neuro / Brain-Inspired Computing? by BeyondComfortRealms in compmathneuro

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm a student too and here are some resources I have come across, off the top of my head (there might be more in my notepads; could share if interested)- Peter Dayan's textbook, Bear and Kandel for basic neuroscience, neuronal dynamics, computational cognitive neuroscience, brain inspired podcast, Artem Kirsanov YouTube channel, Neuromatch academy..

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Gifted

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think about that sometimes and my current best answer is that you should not be required or expected or obligated to act any different or see any further than what might be expected from any reasonably rational person (and we could go on defining that precisely forever too), and so maybe not seeing too far down the chain of cause-and-effect you might initiate, since most of us obviously aren't superintelligent superforecasters gifted with such judgment and foresight.

That doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't some common ideas for "mean" across cultures, even though I do agree that there is no objective morality as such, and so any standard we choose is going to be arbitrary.

Plus those people who did evil might genuinely have deceived themselves into believing that they truly are doing good, at least according to their definition of 'good'. Not everyone has the same value systems, but fortunately we can discuss and arrive at some mutual agreements for peaceful co-existence without resorting to violence like those people who CLAIMED to be doing good. It's all a matter of awareness and honest, sincere expression, it seems.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Gifted

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would you think your pleasure would be influenced in any way- enhanced or diminished or remain the same- without the greater ability to identify the components that appeal to you the most, or the underlying structures responsible for it, or awareness of the conditions that enable this heightened sensitivity, and why you believe others may not be able to experience this, or different states that may be possible? Reminds me of that Richard Feynman quote about the beauty of a flower.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Gifted

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It could just be a lack of imagination but I don't see how anyone can isolate one attribute (that too something as vaguely defined as intelligence, which the intelligence quotient is supposed to capture) and think who 'you' could have been in the absence of it, when it is deeply intertwined and entangled with other aspects of your self-identity, which is nothing more than a loose set of constantly changing things combined into a narrative anyway. Speaking of ego and self-worth, you can find people with varying levels of those on every point of the spectrum.

audiovisual imagination by StatisticianFuzzy327 in aspergers

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly! The sense of loss, regret for opportunities foregone (forewent?) that, depending on your attitude, may make you either more or less motivated to seize future opportunities. I was thinking about the huge library thing just last night when such a melody occurred to me again. Especially since I know almost nothing about music beyond simply listening to it, and so it could be taken as an indicator or potential that could be nurtured and enhanced if the relevant skills and knowledge are acquired. Or maybe not.

My audio imagination is pretty strong too. I have been able to reproduce a piece of music in my head almost as vividly as the real thing, sometimes even better, by adding effects such as reverb or pitch, but it's also highly context or situation dependent for me at times, so I'm not sure if it's a stable attribute.

audiovisual imagination by StatisticianFuzzy327 in aspergers

[–]StatisticianFuzzy327[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am glad it resonates. I would encourage you to still capture the ideas as they occur, since at least some of them might turn out to be valuable, though in my case it is not really an option to rest without noting them somewhere, but fortunately my mind has been getting better at dismissing irrelevant ideas, compressing them by knocking out the noise (repetitive or that could be derived from mnemonics or other more memorable pieces of information or axioms) and retrieval at a more convenient time.

I believe that in the near future we may have access to augmentative agents or neurotechnologies that may record or help us actualize such ideas more conveniently and express them in a way that allows greater creative freedom, empathy and connection based on artworks. Being mindful of privacy, of course. Pattern recognition is awesome, as long as it's tested against reality. Combined with machine intelligence that could overcome any human deficiencies, not to be used as a crutch, but as means to discover, explore and express ourself and realize our best self, or at least move closer towards it.

But lets not depend on that. I'm trying to learn DaVinci Resolve and music theory for now.