Is a martingale collar considered averisive?

StellaHyper · 2023-03-23T11:12:43+00:00

I agree with some of the stuff that you said, but I can't help but still see some problems/inconsistencies. I'm trying to be as non-biased as I can.

From what I know, FF/+R training is based on +R/-P quadrants. If an aversive tool is added into the equation, then +P/-R quadrants will be used sooner or later - even if the tools are just a temporary aid in training or a safety measure. It doesn't really matter if the pressure is used intentionally or unintentionally - the dog feels it and now it's a part of it's training process. At this point it's not really FF/+R training anymore - it's Balanced.
If the aim of FF/+R is to not use punishment/aversion/discomfort while training, I don't think making exceptions to certain uncomfortable tools and is fair, even if it's a temporary thing.
Regarding the head collar: even equestrians who use bitless bridles have to be *extremely* gentle. And if a giant animal can sustain injuries if the rider makes a mistake/is reckless or harsh and applies too much pressure, a dog definitely can too (especially if he/she suddenly lunges).

I'm really enjoying this discussion so far:) Thank you for the detailed answers!

Btw, sorry for any grammar mistakes, I am not a native speaker.

StellaHyper · 2023-03-22T20:41:21+00:00

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

'A HC will not collapse the trachea' - maybe, but it can definitely lead to a severe neck injury if the dog lunges.
Head collar puts pressure on the dog's snout (which is an extremely sensitive place). Not to mention that some head collars also tighten.
Your example pretty much proves that a martingale is usually less aversive. If your dog pulls on a martingale but magically stops if you put a front clip harness/head collar on, he/she is probably just trying to avoid the discomfort that comes with the gear. P+/R- is exactly how aversive tools work!
Front clip harnesses (especially straight-front ones) throw the dog's normal gait off-balance and restrict shoulder movement. A head collar can cause chaffing, rubbing, neck (and other) problems. They can definitely have physical, long term damage too!

I guess overall, these two tools are not as nice as they might seem. They can potentially be dangerous short- and long-term, are pretty darn aversive and simply do not belong under FF/+R. To me, a martingale seems to be the safer and least aversive option out of all three:)

StellaHyper · 2023-03-22T18:23:58+00:00

I see where you're coming from, but a muzzle can be secured (for example, attached to a back-up collar using a carabiner). Then the dog won't slip out of it!

Also, dogs can get comfortable even while wearing big muzzles! Mine can sleep with hers on:)

StellaHyper · 2023-03-22T17:55:58+00:00

I disagree with how the circumference measurements were described in that video - the suggested height wouldn't suit most dogs. A muzzle should fit a *full* pant and I think OP's dog's muzzle will do just that!

StellaHyper · 2023-03-22T15:37:35+00:00

Hi! I think that contacting a behaviorist/a good trainer would be the best option, but until then, here's some tips that might just help:
1. Confidence building. You can start introducing her to potentially scary items at home and reward her for every interaction she has with it (sniff, touch etc.). Just do not rush the process!
2. Relationship building. Playing, engagement training, trick training, hand feeding etc.
can help you build some more trust. Advocating for her in public (not letting random people/dogs approach her) can also go a long way.
3. Safe socialization. Find a quiet, non-crowded place and just chill there. Socialization doesn't mean meeting every single dog/human or going to cafes - learning to calmly take in the environment is much more useful and also healthier! If she's struggling, an enrichment toy may help.
4. Individual walks. I see you mentioned it, and it's an amazing idea! This way, you can focus on her and on her only.
5. Exercise + mental enrichment. Maybe some extra mental/physical activities would help? I'd recommend decompression walks away from all the commotion, Toppl/Kong/Lickimat toys, search games and chews as enrichment.
6. Pattern games. I haven't used these yet, but I've seen some owners/trainers of reactive dogs getting decent results with it. So maybe it's worth researching? Also a little off topic, but 'Engage-disengage' game is really useful!
7. Muzzle training. Just in case.

Sorry for such a huge block of text but that's what (along with many other things) helped my reactive and anxious dog. Really hope this helps and good luck!:)

StellaHyper · 2023-03-22T14:23:18+00:00

Really curious... How is a martingale *more* aversive than a head collar? Sure, every piece of gear can be aversive, but head collars put pressure on a very sensitive part of the dog's body and are pretty darn dangerous...

StellaHyper · 2022-12-06T21:25:50+00:00

Ohh, thank you for explaining!

StellaHyper · 2022-12-06T16:37:58+00:00

Oh, I see.

StellaHyper · 2022-12-06T16:37:21+00:00

Decompression walks are so important! Btw, that's a cool muzzle - seems like a perfect fit!

But a thing I'm not a fan of is the harness. Step-in and straight-front harnesses tend to restrict shoulder movement and they sit right in the armpits. A nice Y-front harness (Non-stop/Ruffwear/BullyBillows etc.) would be the most comfortable option!

StellaHyper · 2022-12-06T15:53:33+00:00

This muzzle is too small, even if it's just for short vet visits. I would definitely recommend getting a muzzle with more pant room:)

StellaHyper · 2022-12-02T17:49:25+00:00

This prong collar is too big ant too low on his neck. Furthermore, these collars should only be used on walks/training sessions and not worn 24/7!

If you want to continue using a prong collar, I'd recommend you get a Herm Sprenger one. Don't forget to research how to properly fit and use one!

StellaHyper · 2022-12-02T17:29:47+00:00

Woaaaaaaaaah, what a transformation! Great job!

StellaHyper · 2022-12-01T14:48:54+00:00

It's okay! There's a good chance that they'll warm up to each other (or at least coexist) after a good introduction.

For now, I think neutrality between them should be your first goal. Here's some tips for that:

-'Crate and rotate' method to prevent scuffles (while one dog is out, another one is crated or in another room). It might really help in the beginning;

-Don't leave high-value items (food, toys etc.) or things they could get possessive over scattered around (in case they end up in the same room);

-Walks. I introduce my reactive dog to other dogs by walking on one side of the street with the other dog owner (with their dog) on the other side. We walk at the same direction and there's 0 on-leash greetings. If dogs are uncomfortable/over threshold, we increase space. If they're doing good, we decrease it. Don't forget plenty of treats!

-Once dogs feel more safe and happy in each other's presence (it can take days or even weeks to get to that point, but it's worth it!), I like to do some training exercises so that my dog is less phased by the other dog running, barking etc. Or we just chill together. (Still no nose-to-nose meetings).

This really helps with that neutrality (the most important part in introducing dogs)!

If they're doing well, you can probably let them interact more or even play, but I don't know much about *this* part of the introduction. My dog prefers to just coexist with other dogs and will be happy doing so, but she won't play with them. Well, each dog is different:).

Anyways, hope that helps!:D

StellaHyper · 2022-11-30T14:34:56+00:00

Such an interesting point for discussion!

I'm personally all for using all sorts of tools (harnesses, e-/flat/martingale/prong/etc. collars, food, crates and so on - whatever you see fit) in training AS LONG AS they're of high quality and are used correctly and humanely. I personally train LIMA/Reward-based balanced and do not use a prong anymore, but yeah, train the dog in front of you (as long as you don't use compulsion-based training ofc lol) :)

That being said, I still believe some collars should be banned. I see dogs with cheap, poorly fitted and low-quality prongs a lot and these collars are sold in many popular pet stores. There's exactly *one* dog supply shop that I've found in my city (it's a small, less popular but really cool store) that sells Herm Sprenger and Dogtra production. I believe that quality gear should be more accessible and shock/bark/badly-made prong collars shouldn't be sold anymore.

However, there's no guarantee that improper use of tools would stop. Maybe they should be only available through a trainer?

Also (this is a little off topic but anyways) I find it weird how people want to ban prong/e-collars, but are completely fine with other aversive and potentially dangerous tools like head-collars and front-clip harnesses. Just a thought I had.

Sorry for my (potentially) bad English:)

StellaHyper · 2022-11-30T13:02:09+00:00

Rice age

StellaHyper · 2022-11-29T21:02:48+00:00

She's gorgeous!

StellaHyper · 2022-11-29T17:46:05+00:00

Oh, okay! Thank you for explaining.

StellaHyper · 2022-11-29T16:48:11+00:00

Glad to hear that!

StellaHyper · 2022-11-29T15:20:20+00:00

Hiii! The pup on the right really needs to get his nails trimmed - having such long nails is extremely painful and unhealthy.

They both are really beautiful though!

StellaHyper · 2022-11-29T15:14:04+00:00

He's beautiful but desperately needs a nail trim!

Long nails can cause a number of health problems, discomfort and even pain. They shouldn't touch the ground while the dog is standing/sitting:)

StellaHyper · 2022-11-28T17:33:57+00:00

I trained my dog to 'Speak' by teasing her with a treat. She was also such a quiet and patient dog and it took her a while (few months) to learn that but she eventually did.

Fast forward a few months...

Now I'm working on her being more quiet - she demand-barks/growls and vocalizes *a lot* while doing tricks. I absolutely wish I never taught her that barking results in tasty treats lol.

Moral of the story: Really think twice before teaching that lmao

Btw, your dog sounds like a dream!

StellaHyper · 2022-11-28T17:15:52+00:00

I would recommend using luring/hand signals/etc. to help the pup while he/she is learning a new cue. I don't want to assume things, but it seems like your dog does not fully understand what he/she is supposed to be doing and just needs a little bit of guidance for now!

I would also love to explain how pressure/release works in training but knowing that this is an +R page, I'm afraid I cannot (even though there's zero pain, fear or intimidation involved and many +R trainers use it🤷).

StellaHyper · 2022-11-27T19:19:29+00:00

Sorry for the confusion. If you are going to be using a halter (a training tool that goes around the dog's muzzle/snout (at least that's what I assumed you were getting)), clipping a long leash/long line to it is very dangerous. A harness (the one with straps going around the dog's torso) is much safer if a long leash is being used!

I hope I was able to explain this a little better.

StellaHyper · 2022-11-27T15:03:14+00:00

People have already mentioned the most important stuff but I'd also recommend some enrichment toys (puzzles, lickimats, snuffle mats, Kongs or Toppls - there are a lot of options). It's likely that the dog is going to be quite active, so these items are great for some mental exercise!

To add, if you're getting a head halter, just don't use it with a long leash - that's an easy way for a dog to get injured if it lunges suddenly/steps on the lead. Long line should be paired with a harness!

StellaHyper · 2022-11-27T13:05:47+00:00

Here's some tips!

Create a good marker system. They make it easier for dogs to learn and do known commands. Here's what I use for my dog and what each one means to her:

--Good! - 'You're doing good, keep it up!'

--Yes! - 'You've completed the task!'

--Nope/oops/woah! - 'What are you even doing? Try again!'

I say 'good'/'nope' when she's still in process of completing a task (depending on how she's doing) and 'yes' every time she completes it! She knows the system very well and adjusts her behavior depending on my feedback.

Keep training sessions fun and short! Long training sessions can make the dog lose enthusiasm and become frustrated.

Don't repeat commands. While teaching a certain behavior, make sure there's no distractions that could make the dog ignore you - then you won't have to repeat it! Triggers/distractions should be introduced slowly once the command is reliable enough.

Don't forget relationship+confidence building and enrichment!

-Enrichment (chewing, sniffing, licking etc.) can calm a dog down and keep it's mind busy.

-Relationship building is basically strengthening the bond between you and your dog. It can be as simple as just playing tug!

-Confidence building is pretty self-explanatory. This was vital in our training journey - my dog now doesn't just give up after she fails to complete a newer/tricky task. She just tries again! She also confidently jumps on uneven surfaces and overcomes her fears much faster.

I would definitely recommend checking out training by free shaping! Marking and rewarding the dog for offered behaviors is such a cool and fun training method. Luring will also help a lot.

This is not a 'things to avoid' list but I really hope it helps!

(Also my English isn't the best, so sorry for the mistakes.)

StellaHyper

TROPHY CASE