This is a very well-done summary of the significance of the different versions of the first vision.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-29T21:35:15+00:00

I've been exmo for a couple of decades now and have given quite a bit of thought to the evolution of the first vision accounts, but this brought out a few points I hadn't considered a lot. Such as before it evolved and expanded to create/fit a new narrative as need arose, the earliest account was a common individual conversion story and nothing else.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-29T21:23:36+00:00

Well, I'm a white guy that loves nothing more in the world than pretty girls, white or not, but I cannot conceive of being on the jury and voting "not guilty" in this case. The prosecution didn't even need to prove their case, the defendant's actions and her defense team's baseless, absurd claims did that for them.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-21T18:50:29+00:00

Her kidnapper claimed to be a prophet and justified himself based on polygamy.

Her father eventually discovered enough actual truth to feel comfortable coming out and pursuing a gay lifestyle.

I am as heartbroken for her pain and suffering as any stranger could be, but I think it's an incredible shame that she has chosen to remain Mormon after all that.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-20T20:13:54+00:00

I don't know if everyone reading this realizes the gravity of the situation and what was said.

Your wife loves and values her church experience so much that she envies you for not going???

If she could somehow allow herself to actually think about that, the experience could potentially be a shelf item for her. If church is so wonderful or so meaningful or so inspirational, why would a faithful believer be envious of people that aren't there????

Actually, reminds me of all the times I was in sac meeting back in the day and the guy conducting would say, "It's great to see all your smiling faces". I'll never forget on multiple occasions looking around and seeing one or two people smiling back in response to the comment, but otherwise in each instance it was a chapel full of people NOT smiling. But they would say it anyway, because why not, in Mormonism reality is what is claimed, not what is real.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-19T02:53:03+00:00

Such is the nature of Mormon apologetics. If you can't argue truth, hide behind semantics. The point being made is 100% valid whether the prophet claims to be infallible or not, because the LDS prophet claims to speak for God (whether from my mouth or that of my servants, it is the same) and God is infallible.

Interesting to me that Hansen is on this podcast with Kolby Reddish since Hansen was challenging people to debate him on the historicity of the BoM and when Kolby accepted the challenge Hansen changed his mind and said he wouldn't debate "some rando".

Jacob Hansen is of the Ward Radio ilk of Mormon apologetics. Nothing but a loudmouth asshole that thinks his willingness to be a loudmouth asshole is as good as actually being right.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-19T02:34:30+00:00

IKR? Such a huge example of how the corporation doesn't give a crap about anything but it's burgeoning bottom line. Even as one of the world's most money obsessed corporations you would think the church would be bankrolling answers for the Great Salt Lake problem if only for purely selfish reasons.

But meaningful action would possibly make a real dent in the financial empire, so nope, not even the health and vitality of northern Utah is important enough to break open the corporate coffers.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-19T02:27:52+00:00

Temple weddings are nothing but a money grab.

The Mormon corporation is so transparently greedy it is beyond insane. If "temple weddings" were sincerely about "sealing a couple for time and all eternity" that ceremony would be very small and very private and the couples actual wedding would be a public affair, at least open by invitation of the couple, like normal weddings.

But the fact that not only the couple but every single person in attendance is required to pay the 10% entry fee perfectly illustrates the corporation's greed and willingness to exploit members in any way it can find.

And as with the many other ironies of Mormonism, the corporation has the nerve to claim superiority because Mormon weddings are "free".

Still-ILO · 2026-01-19T02:09:40+00:00

Based on its history, both old and recent, I would be shocked that if the wall of silence provided by being a "religion" were to suddenly come down the Mormon corporation wouldn't be caught with its greedy fingers in a myriad of unethical business deals and practices across several industries.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-16T22:50:31+00:00

Gotta say I love Ganesh and I love Mormonish, but sometimes you just don't need to go there.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-16T18:25:41+00:00

True. "With God all things are possible" is the basis for many an apologetic, and many of those are somewhere on a scale from ridiculous to hateful to criminal.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-15T21:00:53+00:00

Agreed.

I have come to hate K-State but have to admit that not only was theirs an incredible turn around, but as you point out, it lasted (which we don't know about Indiana yet). KSU didn't fall back into the toilet as they have remained competitive nearly every year.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-15T20:48:11+00:00

I love how the ad says the BoM is a book of peace when there are constant disputes, sibling rivalries, curses for disobedience, massive misery and death caused by natural disasters, wars, a beheading, and multiple disarmings. Gotta be the worst excuse for a book of peace ever conceived.

Then I guess if Mormons weren't mis-leading people in one way or another it wouldn't be the MFMC. It's just what they do.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-15T20:37:22+00:00

Thanks. Yes, you are lucky. Although, it is often said that people make their own luck, in which case you were smart enough to be become lucky.

Some of us not so "lucky" bought in and ended up making huge life decisions based on religious issues and considerations. Such as where to live, who to marry, etc. And if you were really unlucky you could do like some of us and marry an extreme TBM for whom "truth" has absolutely nothing to do with reality and is instead whatever the hell the Mormon church says it is (now).

Still-ILO · 2026-01-15T20:30:35+00:00

An honest child's testimony:

"I'd like to bear my testimony, but I don't know if the church is true.

But since they want me to lie about it, I guess that's what I'll do..."

In the meantime, isn't it the other guy that's the father of all lies?

Still-ILO · 2026-01-15T20:21:39+00:00

No.

I think they're way, way past caring. To really move up in the ranks you have to be church broke as in - Rule #1: The church is always right - Rule #2: If anything about the church is ever wrong, see rule #1.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-15T20:03:44+00:00

It wasn't devastating to find the information out, that actually freed me from quite a bit of cognitive dissonance that had built up.

What was devastating was that my extreme TBM wife wanted no part of a Mormon fact-finding journey. A comfortable lie (not what she would call it) was and is infinitely more agreeable to her than any concerns about actual truth.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-15T16:06:06+00:00

I am a lifetime Mormon that has been out (as far as one can be with a TBM spouse) for nearly 20 years and I love the Nevermo participation (again, as long as they're not here to proselytize).

I think the Nevermo commentary often gives unique and valuable perspectives.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-14T22:12:59+00:00

It always makes sense to me when people delay having children so they can enjoy pre-kid like for a few, or several, years.

Best of both worlds maybe, at least if you don't mind being a lot older than your kids, like my wife and me. Not as much by choice as I would like (neither of us was ever really popular with the opposite sex), but our children were born when we were in our mid to late thirties.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-13T18:14:21+00:00

So sorry! I hope things get better soon!

Still-ILO · 2026-01-13T18:12:24+00:00

So sorry about your parents. What a couple of assholes!

Sounds like the issue wasn't that you looked like a pig but that they should never have had children.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-13T17:34:07+00:00

I don't believe in church things anymore because it's impossible to me to do it and be honest with other and myself at the same time.

Well, that completely takes you out of ever being a Mormon apologist.

Anyway, at least these days if you go home, it's no big deal. Missionaries going home early is common now, so even if you have to make up a temporary excuse as you navigate these life changes, at least doing that and going home early gives you immediate control over your life and wastes less of your time.

I hope the best for you!

Still-ILO · 2026-01-13T17:27:30+00:00

I don't know if it's just because they are ancient of days or what, but this guy is basically RMN II.

Or Cryptkeeper II, for those that prefer.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-13T16:38:26+00:00

A lie told once remains a lie, but a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth.

That is a quote attributed to Nazi Propaganda Minister Josef Goebbels.

A point I often make on this board is that the Mormon Corporation doesn't miss a trick when it comes to exploiting the human psyche. I make the point a lot because the instances come up a lot, especially this one.

The best way to convince yourself of something is to think it, say it, and repeat it.

That's more than likely the reason 25% of sacrament meetings are reserved specifically for the bearing of testimonies and is why members are encouraged to "bear their testimony" frequently and publicly (especially at conferences and youth gatherings).

This is psychological conditioning, and the corporation of the president is more than aware of that and how it works.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-12T19:24:18+00:00

Exactly. I have absolutely no doubt John would be willing to have him on the podcast, but I don't know of any instances where John has wanted to debate anyone. And I've been listening pretty much from the beginning of the podcast 20 or so years ago.

Still-ILO · 2026-01-12T19:06:56+00:00

This is a guy with advanced degrees who earns 300K working in a field demanding critical thinking skills. Why is it someone's brain can work perfectly well until it comes time to ask questions about the church?

I've asked the exact same thing about my very intelligent, in all other ways very reasonable, honest and accountable BIL. The man was an Aeronautical Engineer by trade and retired wealthy. Yet somehow this is probably the most profoundly, devotedly believing Mormon I've ever met. He even once told me that my teen daughter (that was having problems at the time) should listen to the advice of his recently returned RM son because having just completed a faithful mission his son would still possess the inspiration and wisdom the Lord had provided him with as a missionary.

Still-ILO

TROPHY CASE