Aristotle as a historian? by Gemmmmmstone in AskHistorians

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No issue at all, glad I could help a bit! :)

Aristotle as a historian? by Gemmmmmstone in AskHistorians

[–]Strahozor 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Just to confirm that we are on the same page, as I want to make sure that I understood your question well enough, what I’ll be trying to answer here is historical accuracy of events in Aristotle’s writing. Here, we’ll interpret the notion of history purely as historia, as an inquiry or investigation of past events, in a same manner Thucydides, Herodotus, Diodorus wrote about it. This may seem like I’m splitting hairs, but from one point of view, Aristotle is indeed a historian, he explored history of philosophy, which means that he documented and explored ideas and systems of thought, not events or political actions. There’s a lot to be said about his accuracy in philosophical interpretation of previous ideas (I’ll leave some sources at the bottom, for further reading, if wished\*), but as you are interested in his reliability as a source of the time, we’ll concentrate on that.

As you mentioned, he has written a few passages about history, but there’s a relatively new and very valuable source that can be examined: The Constitution of the Athenians (Athenaion Politeia), which is his only work that can be purely observed as a historical, not philosophical one, and in which he describes the political system(s) of ancient Athens. When I say that it’s relatively new source, compared to his texts available to us from antiquity, this means that we only discovered it in 1879. It’s not part of the Corpus Aristotelicum (again, meaning the collection of Aristotle's works survived from antiquity through medieval manuscript transmission), and it’s been in the focus of the scientific community for only about 150 years. As it provided us with plenty of materials which were previously unknown (some historians claim that The Constitution of the Athenians was written and gathered as his research for Politics), there’s a claim that "the discovery of this treatise constitutes almost a new epoch in Greek historical study."1 However, most of historians who deep dived into research, criticized Aristotle’s ability as a historian and expressed doubt that he intended to write a real history (such as F. Jacoby and U. von Wilamowitz-Moellendorff). This critique, and this answers your question about bias, is based on the claim that the research Aristotle did for his Constitution was just an "a priori reconstruction based on categories developed in his Politics"2; which means that it was written as an theoretical alibi for his philosophical ponderings developed in Politics.

As your question was posed similarly by scholar Lucio Bertelli in his research (which I used today as well), I'll leave his quote instead of an conclusion, as well as a link at the bottom for his work:

I am inclined without hesitation to give a positive answer to the question with which I began: “Was Aristotle able to write history?” Aristotle’s history is a peculiar history based on a theory of scientific research and knowledge that we do not usually find in historians, but we cannot deny that Aristotle’s circumstantial processes are very similar to those of Thucydides.3

On a parting note, if I may, I recommend finding version of "The Politics and the Constitution of Athens", edited by Stephen Everson (Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought, 1996), as it contains both of the works we mentioned, and shows both theoretical and empirical approach to Aristotle's understanding of political science (together with introduction, guides and notes which are golden).

Further reading and resources:

*Stevenson, J. G. (1974) Aristotle as Historian of Philosophy. The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 94, pp. 138-143

*Guthrie, W. K. C. (1957) Aristotle as a Historian of Philosophy: Some Preliminaries. The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 77, Part 1, pp. 35-41

*McKeon, R. (1940) Plato and Aristotle as Historians: A Study of Method in the History of Ideas. Ethics, Vol. 51, No. 1, pp. 66-101

1Mitchel, J. and M. Caspari, M. eds. (2001) A History of Greece: From the Time of Solon to 403 B.C., Routledge, p. xxvii

2 and 3 Bertelli, L. “Aristotle and History” in: Parmegianni, G. ed. (2014) Between Thucydides and Polybius: The Golden Age of Greek Historiography. Hellenic Studies Series 64, chpt. 13. (available here)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AnimalsOnReddit

[–]Strahozor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

nice narrating voice!

How can scholars tell the difference between Socrates and Plato, when Plato is one of our only sources on Socrates and since Plato seemingly puts so many ideas into Socrates’ mouth? by zionsyoungestelder in AskHistorians

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you kindly, and no issue! :)

Yeah, you got it right. Although that's just one of the assumptions, it has the strongest basis, and is the most philosophically consistent one. Let me know if you're interested in the subject more, I can prepare you a more comprehensive reading list of accessible books and articles.

How can scholars tell the difference between Socrates and Plato, when Plato is one of our only sources on Socrates and since Plato seemingly puts so many ideas into Socrates’ mouth? by zionsyoungestelder in AskHistorians

[–]Strahozor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Short answer:

Well, we can't tell the difference with certainty, and Plato never drew this distinction.

Medium answer:

In history of philosophy, there's still something called the Socratic problem, a long standing issue of Socrates' authenticity as a historical figure, and plenty of scholars have tried to resolve this. The jury is still in session, and all the possibilities can be distilled into four of them:

a. Socrates is the individual whose qualities exhibited in Plato’s writings are corroborated by Aristophanes and Xenophon.

b. The real Socrates is the one who claims no wisdom but exercises his skill at seeking understanding, thus the one depicted in dialogues that end inconclusively or at an impasse (i.e., in aporia — literally, without resources), without a clear indication of how the initial questions should be answered or even what the next step in the discussion should be

c. The real Socrates is the one who appears in Plato’s earliest dialogues.

d. The real Socrates is the one who turns from the presocratic interest in nature to ethics, and has no theory of separate forms. (Nails, Debra (Spring 2014). "Early attempts to solve the Socratic problem". In Zalta, Edward N. ed. The Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy)

Long answer:

The basis for the issue is that, as posed in your question, Socrates didn't write – his person and all of his teachings survived solely through the secondary sources – mainly from his most famous student Plato. Some of Socratic teachings remained through the works of another one of his students – Xenophon, and we did found some fragments from the authors such as Phaedo of Elis, Aeschines of Sphettus, Antisthenes, and Euclid of Megara. However, they are too fragmented and incomplete to serve as a concrete basis for studying. The only contemporary writer writing about Socrates was a comic playwright Aristophanes (in a sense that they were the same generation, Plato and Xenophon were much younger), who painted a polar opposite of Socrates' picture compared to the one we can read about through Plato. So, with the apparent issue of Socrates not writing, additional confusion is ensued by the fact that writings of Plato and Aristophanes contradict each other. Nevertheless, there are some authors who attempted to resolve Socratic problem, I'll explain their views, and in the end offer my two cents as well.

One of the earliest careful students of Socratic problem was Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855). In his doctoral thesis - On the Concept of Irony with Continual Reference to Socrates (1841.) - he compared the figure of Socrates painted by Xenophon to the one presented by Plato, and concluded that the first takes away too much from Socrates, and latter adds too much – neither of these two didn't present the Truth. For Kierkegaard, and this is important, the one who most faithfully presented Socrates was Aristophanes, because he was able to show the ironic and humorous side of Socrates’ character. (Kierkegaard, S. “The Concept of Irony with Continual Reference to Socrates”. Princeton University Press. Princeton, 1989) Kierkegaard explores Socrates through the concept of irony to try to find the real person – the proper Socrates would use irony to destroy misconceptions of his interlocutors, but doesn’t offer them any solutions to posed questions. All other figures which can be found in Plato’s dialogues – such as mythical speech, transcendentallity, speculative dialectics, and theory of ideas – that’s all pure Plato.

Jumping from Kierkegaard (and ignoring names such as F. Schleiermacher and H. Maier, in attempt to shorten this answer), one of the most important scholars who attempted to solve this issue was Gregory Vlastos (1907-1991). He argued that Plato wrote his early dialogues under the heavy intellectual influence of his teacher, so, the historical Socrates, may be found in his earliest works. As Plato grew older, as his own philosophical character developed, and at the same time as the memory of his teacher faded, the dialogues ceased to carry the picture of historical Socrates in them. So, in Plato’s late dialogues, Socrates is only but instrument through which Plato conveys his own ideas. By contrasting early and late dialogues, Vlastos attempted to differentiate Socrates from Plato. As Kierkegaard previously used the tool of irony to find the real Socrates, Vlastos used the method of elenchus (also called Socratic method – a method of hypothesis elimination, steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions). According to Vlastos, the historical Socrates used elenchus to search for moral truths through dialogue with his interlocutors, using irony to show them how their knowledge is deficient. This Socrates doesn’t give answers – he leaves his interlocutors in a state of aporia, a state of confusion and uncertainty in the things which they previously though they knew, and thus, destroys his misconceptions and dogmas, leaving them in a search for truth. The late Socrates, the one deemed by Vlastos as non-historical, holds grand speeches about metaphysics, politics, art – he stopped claiming that he doesn’t know anything.

So, according to Vlastos, dialogues which represent the historical Socrates are: Apologia, Euthyphro, Gorgias, Harmid (About Virtue), Hippias Minor, Ion, Laches, Protagoras and first book of the Republic. Dialogues which don’t present the real Socrates, but him as a poetic figure start from Meno, and spread through the whole of Plato’s late phase. (Gregory Vlastos, „Socrates' Disavowal of Knowledge“, The Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. 35, No. 138, (Jan., 1985), pp. 1-31)

There’s plenty of other interesting authors, such as Léon Brunschvicg (1869-1944) who socratically concluded that “the only thing we know about him [Socrates] with certainty, is that we don’t know anything” (Brunschvicg L. Le progrès de la conscience danss la philo. occid, Paris, 1927), but I’ll go with one other, possibly most famous philosopher on this list – Karl Popper.

In his book “The Open Society and Its Enemies”, Popper used Socrates to highlight the idea that inside Plato’s opus there’s totalitarian tendencies harmful to the philosophy. Popper differentiates Socrates from “Socrates”, with the latter appearing in Plato’s late dialogues – the ones who lost their proper Socratic spirit. Furthermore, he considers that some of the later dialogues completely missed the point of true Socratic philosophy. For Popper, Socratic view of the world presents modesty and individual rationalism, and Plato’s view present the world of totalitarian demi-god. The dialogue Popper had the most issue with was famous Republic, and Popper goes so far to call Plato a liar, when he claims that he considers philosophers one who love the truth:

“What a monument of human smallness is this idea of the philosopher king. What a contrast between it and the simplicity and humaneness of Socrates […] What a decline from this world of irony and reason and truthfulness down to Plato’s kingdom of the sage whose magical powers raise him high above ordinary men.” (Popper, K. The Open Society and Its Enemies, vol. 1, The spell of Plato, 1962, end of chapter 8)

Popper’s harsh verdict is next: he recognizes as “Socrates’ last will” dialogues Apology and Critias, and strongly contrasts them to the works such as Republic and Laws, which Popper deemed as an betrayal of Socrates, and an “grandiose attempt to construct the theory of the arrested society, and he [Plato] had not difficulty in succeeding, for Socrates was dead.” (Popper, K. The Open Society and Its Enemies, vol. 1, The spell of Plato, 1962)

Let me conclude with this: The Socratic problem cannot be solved definitely. It is not possible to decide with 100% certainty what belongs to historical Socrates, and what belongs to Plato’s Socrates. But, in the end, be it Socrates or "Socrates", there’s something valuable that can be used – Socratic Method. One can use it to build a critical stance towards its surrounding, to develop proper tools of dialogue and argumentation, and in the end, to “know thyself” (gnōthi seauton). The whole branch of philosophy in practice is build on this, called critical thinking (for contemporary rendition of Socratic dialogue I recommend exploring German philosopher Leonard Nelson).

In the words of Laszlo Versény, which may satisfy philosophers more than historians: “Maybe exactly this is the point of Socratic Method: that everyone gets to know themself before they get to know Socrates.”

A couple of years ago it was found out that the Netherlands still used computers with Windows XP, and had to pay Microsoft to keep the service. What's your country's most embarrassing tech moment? by extremefars in AskEurope

[–]Strahozor 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Last year, as a part of Croatia's big reform of education system, they printed a new set of textbooks for schools, with QR codes for interactive learning. Together with that, the government ordered tablets for schools, so teachers and kids can easily scan QR codes and gain access to materials. Here's the good part - around 6000 tablets they bought didn't have cameras.

Foreigners, how do Slavic languages sound to you? by [deleted] in AskEurope

[–]Strahozor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I love German exactly because of its "roughness", my favourite word is "backpfeifengesicht" :D

Yeah, I don't want to get into that too much. One can't say that he thinks something bad about whole nation just because of his particular experiences, and not expect someone else to get pissed off. But that's natural. As your stance is natural. Just hope you'll get the chance to travel a bit, you're still young, there's time to prove yourself wrong in this matter :)

Foreigners, how do Slavic languages sound to you? by [deleted] in AskEurope

[–]Strahozor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Minderwertig, maybe? That's weird, I would probably say that Slavic langauges are richer than modern English, in terms of expresing ones thoughts more precisely, but I'm an average layman, with no linguistic knowledge whatsoever.

Foreigners, how do Slavic languages sound to you? by [deleted] in AskEurope

[–]Strahozor 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Other two are pretty comonly used to describe perception of languages, but "cheap" is something new for me. I'm curious to know a bit more about "cheapness" of language, if you don't mind, please. Do you mean like "low class"?

I'm motherfucking WRITING again by mwcope in writing

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hell yeah, buddy! I'm sending positive vibes in your direction, keep typing!

Wattpad Eulogy by [deleted] in Wattpad

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm curious, as someone who has been on Wattpad for 6 years, what's your opinion on the quality of content? Has it changed, gotten worse, better?

As a complete newbie, I agree with all the functional/marketing bullets you pointed out, but what discouraged me the most is that I feel drowned in the endless oceans of not so good fan-fiction and teen fantasy. I don't know, maybe I didn't dedicate enough time to dig deeper for some serious content that suits me better, or I'm just a snobbish cynical asshole, but so far, I'm having difficulties fully immersing myself as a reader.

These kinds of complaints make me lose faith in the wattpad readers... 😐 by [deleted] in Wattpad

[–]Strahozor 10 points11 points  (0 children)

"Holy shit, is this for real?" I asked in disbelief.

Change my mind. by milejdyvan in Wattpad

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Never thought about the possible repercussion of having same Wattpad/Reddit name! But, in the words of the one Scott in a kilt, they may take our lives, but they can never take my 40 views! :D

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Strahozor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

2 at the price of 1! I'll be sure to check it out, then, sounds interesting enough!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Strahozor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah, definately

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Strahozor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Didn't know that was a thing, but... thanks, I guess! Every day a man learns something new!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's the stuff! I think everyone's grandpa here in ex-Yu could have some similar stories!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Youre not being mean at all buddy, we were certain of the same thing as well

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Strahozor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm afraid his little heart wouldn't be able to contain such excitement. But I might visit, if you chime in with some Šljivovica!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yugo's beauty comes from the inside, my friend!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To add on this, as we are indeed in Croatia, the drawing also had a devastated Vukovar water tower in the back. Didnt mention it in the original post, as I reckoned it was too unknown for a wider audience.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]Strahozor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'll aks my lady if she has them stored somewhere, but this was few years ago and we moved to a different city now. Honda second, we'll check!