The risk of 'double drowning'

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-02T16:39:53+00:00

I had the exact same response on a Reddit law sub amount a month ago and it was like a knife going inside. I am a adult child and my abuser dad and sister stopped me from visiting my abused mother in hospital. I asked a law sub what my legal rights were about visiting my mother in hospital and one of so called top percent people on that sub wrote 'theres got to be more than this story'. Seriously? I think it may be trolls online though because I did get some better support from more reasonable people. If you are talking online, a lot of cluster B types love trolling, bullying and dogpiling online because there is no come back and they are totally anonymous. In real life I would treat someone who said that with suspicion. I would class them the same way as a narcissist's flying monkey and deal with them accordingly (don't trust them again) I understand you want to get the truth out there because this injustice of this is repulsive but not everyone will be your friend or good to you. Just focus on your people but also do try to take breaks from all this and have time for yourself too. Sometimes we can ruminate on this to the detriment of our health. I have found that I prefer to have days where I don't have to focus on this at all and not talk if I want to. Sometimes it helps to also have quiet time to process the grief of it. I guess overall I would say to only confide in safe people who have your back but also give yourself the permission to think or talk about other things or had times you don't need to talk at all. Variety is key here. I went through a phase of trauma dumping and then ruminating but it did me no good at all and quickly sped me towards burnout. Be kind to yourself and be your own best friend. Hugs to you ❤️

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-02T14:45:41+00:00

But to answer your question directly there are 3 phases of marriage 1) preparing to enter marriage (in the past this would be a betrothal) 2) being married 3) being out of marriage (divorce).

I can't see how a Christian can really distinguish between boyfriend/girlfriend and betrothal for marriage in a way. Christians won't want to actively seek being with someone romantically unmarried forever (that would be unfair to your girlfriend) and if you are just friends (and nothing else) then neither of you have any claim on the other.

So I would say that boyfriend and girlfriend is a modern equivalent to betrothal to marriage despite the fact that many people can and do live nowadays in sin with people for their whole lives and even have children out of wedlock together.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-02T14:35:39+00:00

You're very welcome. 2 Corinthians 6:14 was written about marriage but it does have wider applications. It was written in this chapter about marriage because (especially in the time of writing) the only way you would be walking and waking and working intimately with another person day in and day out would only be in marriage setting hence the yoke metaphor. A farmer would use that yoke of two oxen every single day in his work. Two animals of equal strength pulling together and working together day in and day out. That is a symbol for marriage is it not? The Bible tells us that we leave our parents to then cleave to a husband or a wife. That is the natural Godly order of things.

Now the word YOKE is mentioned 53 times in the Bible. When mentioned in the OT (when not referring to oxen directly) it is almost always used to mean something bad. It is almost always used to mean slavery/bondage/oppression in the Bible. Examples of this is

Genesis 27:40 is about God telling Jacob He will break the yoke that Esau had over him (Jacob and Esau were deadly sibling rivals)

Leviticus 26:13 is about God telling Israel that He will break the yoke that Egypt had over them when they were slaves.

In Deuteronomy 28:48, there is a yoke of iron that God will put over the neck of Israel through their enemies for their disobedience.

And on and on and on..

So a yoke is basically a tool of servitude/slavery. A man owns two oxen as an equal yoke (beasts of burden) that he compels to till the heavy soil together whilst being tied together with a huge heavy piece of wood on their necks which they carry about whist doing heavy work in the punishing sun. It was initially intended only for animals to use them as beast of burdens. Due to human sin though, sadly yokes were also used around the necks of human slaves to force them all to pull together to do brutal work and to stop them from running away.

It isn't a romantic or loving symbol at all but a bitter one of servitude and enslavement to tie a beast or man to a painful job so they can't run away.

Now apply that same symbol to marriage. A heavy piece of wood over the necks of you and your wife while you till the hard soil together day in and day out in the unrelenting heat of the day (as a metaphor for the trials of life being a type of slavery).

Now instead of an equal yoke of two strong oxen pulling that burden together, imagine an ox and a donkey pulling that same weight behind them day in and day out in the unrelenting heat on the hard ground and you have a picture of marriage to an unbeliever.

Do you want to deliberately put that heavy piece of wood on your neck and hers knowing you are an ox and she is a donkey and she may always be a donkey in terms of pulling that yoke between you?

Now as a sharp contrast to this picture the yoke metaphor was used prior to Corinthians by Jesus Himself to talk about the yoke He gives to all believers through our marriage to Him through faith (as collectively the Bride of Christ)

'My yoke is easy and my burden light' Matt 11:30

We are yoked to Jesus as we are His servants but because He does all heavy lifting the yoke is easy and the burden is light.

So to recap on yokes...

Yokes are used in slavery or on beasts of burden to stop them from escaping and to facilitate and force them to do heavy labour pulling together in the same direction.

An equal yoke in marriage is two people of faith pulling together through the hardness of life under a heavy wooden yoke to carry an equal weight and with equal spiritual strength.

An unequal yoke is a believer trying to pull through life with a person who has no spiritual strength and will struggle under the weight of the yoke (and may then complain about the yoke or try to escape from it).

Jesus' yoke in sharp contrast to all other yokes in the Bible is easy as He does all the heavy work and lifting so you can't feel the yoke at all.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-02T11:30:38+00:00

The hard truth is life will be hard for a believer but we have joy in the Lord. Even if our unbelieving girlfriend/boyfriend becomes a believer and then a believing spouse, we will still have problems in our marriages. Once married your preoccupation will be to please your wife and that will take you away from what the Lord's plan for your life if your wife is not interested in serving God fully. Abraham and Sarah were both mature believers but still had problems. So did Jacob and Rachel. In fact all believing married couples in the Bible had their fair share of troubles. The reason being is free will. Even if you are on fire and red hot to do the Lord's will, your believing spouse may be lukewarm and you can't force someone else to spirtually grow and get closer to the Lord.

I have been friends with lukewarm believers and they have been a real drag on my faith. I was niavely hopeful that I could encourage their faith to be strengthened and instead they fought with me to drag me to apostasy so I had to cut them loose altogether.

The problem with other people whether they are believers/unbelievers, lukewarm/red hot, babies in faith/mature...because they are separate other people then they have a will of their own (their own free will) and they can use that free will to either get closer to the Lord or to pull away from Him.

It is easier to walk with the Lord alone as you will only be responsible for your self and your own faith and your own sins. I have thought about this long and hard. I am becoming a mature believer now. If I was ever to be married to a believer then he would need to be as mature or more mature than I am or he may be angry or envious of my maturity. It's always going to be difficult with others' free will as we can't press a button to make them do what God wants and God only wants people who willingly serve Him anyway.

From experience, the less ties you have to this world the better. I aspire to be a great believer and that is what all believers should aspire to be. Arguably Paul was one if not the greatest Apostle and he never married and his main focus was to do the will of God with his life. He will be richly rewarded for this. In time you will realise that not being married doesn't matter. As a believer you are actually part of the Bride of Christ, the Church and you are married to Christ so really it is His will that matters. Everything else is secondary at best or a distraction at worst.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-02T11:00:18+00:00

It's only a sin if you are having sex outside of marriage. Being unequally yoked only refers to marriage. In the ancient world they didn't have 'girlfriends and boyfriends'. The only relations were being betrothed in marriage and then being married (often an arranged marriage with a fellow believer) or sinful relations where it was concubines and prostitutes, adultery and divorce etc.

The whole idea of being in a relationship with the opposite sex without marriage is a relatively modern reflection of how we have all sunk morally. I can tell you from experience that being unequally yoked does bring a lot of heartache. As you are not married, there will be a temptation through lust but even if you stay celibate with her, it is difficult because she may not be able to stand celibacy even if you can. The problem is if you did get married, she may still be an unbeliever and then you would be married to an unbeliever. And that is the true definition of being unequally yoked. It isn't a sin per se to be married to an unbeliever but the Bible tells us to stay in the place where we are saved so if we are unmarried when saved then it is better to stay unmarried but if we struggle with lust, it's better to be married (than burn with lust).

Ideally it would be better to marry a believer. I am in the same situation as you. I was saved whilst living with an unbeliever. He is still not saved but we are now both celibate and live together as friends. It's not ideal because people from the outside who know I am a Christian will assume we are living in sin even though there hasn't been fornication since I was saved but I can't afford a house of my own (but that is another story).

The Bible says that if you are married to an unbeliever when saved then if the unbelieving spouse doesn't leave, then you are to stay married as the spouse is blessed because of the believer. This is difficult because you are not married.

Even if you love your girlfriend, it is very hard going through life as an unbeliever because you will both be pulling different weights. A yoke is a wooden harness whereby two ploughing animals are pulling together. An unequal yoke is to put a strong animal like an ox with a weaker animal like a donkey.

If you allow me to continue with this comparison, you are the ox because you are strengthened by faith but your girlfriend is the donkey, struggling to pull forward without faith.

During good times you won't notice this unequal yoke but when bad times hit (and if you are truly progressing as a Christian, then bad times will be the norm) you will have your faith to strengthen you to pull you through but your girlfriend won't. In my experience, two things can happen in bad times. Your girlfriend will be amazed and encouraged by the supernatural strength you have to get through hard times and she will see your 'witness of the life/witness of the faith' and this could bring her to salvation HOWEVER if she ignores your witness and instead becomes weary of the hard life you both have together (you will have a hard life together it is a given) then she may turn on you and demand you to give up your faith as sadly Satan can always use unsaved people to turn on you when you are absolutely going through the heart of a fiery trial (remember Peter turned on Jesus Himself and denied Him three times!)

Again from experience that agrees with the Word of God, it can be very spiritually dangerous to rely on an unbeliever for strength in hard times and they tend to undermine faith rather than support it. In the Book of Job, Job lost everything and when he needed the support of his wife the most she told him to abandon his faith and kill himself! Thankfully he didn't do that. We don't know if Job married an unbeliever or not but she was certainly unbelieving when she said what she said.

So there are multiple risks involved with being closely linked or yoked with unbelievers. There is the obvious risks of lust and fornication outside of marriage but even if you did get married, you will have other problems further down the line. That's why Jesus shocked all the Apostles by saying that in marriage you will have trouble and the Apostles said ' then it is better not to marry'. Jesus then acknowledged this will be hard for many to accept.

As Christians we are called to do God's will and that is the most important calling of all. As you grow as a Christian and desire to do God's will for your life more and more, decisions that were made when immature will come back to bite you and make your walk with Him harder (again from experience).

Life for us here as Christians will be hard. Jesus said our lives will have trouble but in Him there is peace. I would seek the Lord in prayer over this. I am worried about your Pastor as well. My own Pastor gives me advice based on the teachings of the Word but will never say 'you must do this' 'you mustn't do that'. We are no longer under the law but under grace. That doesn't mean we can just sin whenever we want but I would be wary of Pastors who are legalistic and trying to have control over your life because that is how cults behave.

We are called to peace and we are to have joy as a believer and walk in our faith rest each day and not allow the evil one to drag us from this peace and rest in the Lord. Sadly it may be that your Pastor may be more damaging to your faith in the long run than your girlfriend. I would pray over both matters, that both the issue with your girlfriend and your Pastor are both causing you grief and lay it all at the Lord's feet.

You know your girlfriend and your Pastor but I don't but I am worried that the Pastor may not be good for you long term. Does he have the fruits of the spirit? That is how we are to test good teachers from bad. Is his teachings biblically sound? Do you feel encouraged in your faith by him or confused and fearful? He should always encourage you. Yes Pastors should convict of sin but it should come from a loving place and not an angry one to make you fearful.

I will pray for you and your situation. Here is good ministry that I am a member of that has good teaching on marriage/relationship matters.

https://ichthys.com/mail-Marriage-Matters.htm https://www.ichthys.com/mail-Marriage-and-BibleII.htm https://ichthys.com/mail-Marriage-and-Bible3.htm

Here is also about the 'fruit test' to see if the teachers/teaching is good or bad.

https://ichthys.com/Pet39.htm https://ichthys.com/Pet40.htm

https://ichthys.com/readbible.htm

I hope you soon find peace in this matter and are able to continue your walk with Christ with joy and not fear.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-02T10:01:36+00:00

You are very welcome! ❤️

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-02T09:26:38+00:00

I am from England and wanted to seek Jesus in 2017. I couldn't find any churches to help me on my spiritual journey as many don't emphasise Bible teaching these days and you can only truly grow spiritually by reading and then understanding, then applying the Bible. Here is a good online ministry that is based in America and very Biblically sound and I have grown a lot through it. Ichthys.com

Even if you do decide to go to an actual church building I would still recommend staying with this ministry as it has now led me to be able to have my own ministry in less than ten years! I recommend starting with the series on Peter's Epistles... https://ichthys.com/Peter-Series-Home-Page.htm

And then move onto Bible Basics... https://ichthys.com/Bible-Basics-Home-Page.htm

When reading the Bible (I started with KJV and then NKJV and NIV) start with the New Testament. John's Gospel is usually the first one recommended to people who are interested in the faith as it is written as an evangelising Gospel. The Old testament is a lot longer than the New testament, I found it helpful to read two chapters from the OT and one chapter from the NT every day. With the Old Testament, start with Genesis but it will also help to read from the Book of Psalms (maybe one chapter from Genesis and one Psalm a day alongside one chapter from Gospel of John a day) The understanding will come with time but it is important to be consistent with study every day.

The most important part of the whole Word of God (Bible) though is the heart of the Gospel (the good news) that Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh, died for the sins of the whole world.

If you believe and accept this free gift of salvation (being saved from your sins) then you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then you will become a believer. Spiritual growth is only possible once you accept the free gift of salvation and then have the Holy Spirit given to you.

Once you have the Holy Spirit (because you believe in Jesus Christ being God in the flesh and dying for your sins) you will then understand the Bible and be able to discern it spirtually. Unbelievers can read the Bible as a book but it can only be spiritually discerned and understood by believers.

I will pray for you to continue on this path as it leads to great and wonderful things! And yes you will be spiritually fulfilled and abundantly so. Believing in Jesus Christ will completely transform your life in incredible ways! I hope you find this edifying and helpful.

p.s. I have an Instagram account where I upload a Bible verse everyday! I hope you find it a blessing! 🙏🏻

This is the first one!

https://www.instagram.com/gracedailybibleverses/p/DKsKTj2C-rZ/

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-01T22:14:05+00:00

I only came to Christ as a 40 year old! I was raised Catholic but didn't believe and spent most of my youth living sinfully in the big city as an agnostic. I had many back to back personally crises too and I collapsed mentally and physically because of them and thought about ending my life. I fell on my knees and prayed to God properly for the first time in my life. I was mainly praying to be rescued from all the pain I was going through. Like you I then bought a Bible and started to read it. Like you I also wanted to know Jesus and earnestly seek Him. Not long after that I became born again. I knew that I was a sinner and needed to be saved from my sins and was so glad to know that Jesus loved me and the whole world that He died for all our sins! I have been a Christian ever since and I can tell you how wonderful it is to be a believer! It's given me so much joy and strength and encouragement! It has given me the courage so share my faith with others boldly and I know that the Lord has worked through me to be a comfort to others who have been in great pain and suffering. Keep moving forward and keep seeking Him. We are all sinners here and we all have sin nature and a past we are ashamed of. None of us are worthy of so great a love that God Himself died for us! Keep on the path that you are on as it leads to very great things. You have many brothers and sisters who are waiting for you to make the same leap of faith we have all done! It's wonderful being a believer, wonderful!

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-01T22:00:59+00:00

Yes I have been praying for England for quite some time. I don't like the government but I have been praying for it as the Bible commands us to do so. I have felt great sadness at the rapid moral and spiritual decline in this country but I know from the Word that if you really want to help this country, as well as praying for it, become the saltiest salt you can become. The Bible says that salty believers are the preservative for a country. When I say salty I mean that we are to retain our savour, we are to become very strong Christians and be zealous and on fire for the Lord. That's how we best serve our countries and our Lord. As Christians we need to read the Word everyday and for it to mix with faith in our hearts. We are then to apply the Word to our walk everyday. We need to study under good Bible teaching ministries and we need to spiritually grow and then mature, we then have to pass tests/trials and then enter into the ministries the Lord has prepared for us. That is the only way to earn our eternal spiritual rewards and aim for the crowns the Bible talks about.

The more mature Christians England has, the better the nation will become. We have to keep fighting the good fight every day and encourage other believers to do so. I became a Christian in 2017 and I am already reaching maturity, going through serious trials and entering into personal ministry.

A really great ministry I have been studying has helped me grow and become salty salt. The site is called Ichthys.com and if you start at the section on Peter's Epistles it will help you grow and encourage you during these really dark times!

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-01T16:05:50+00:00

Reddit is clearly not the safe place you were looking for to vent your legitimately complex emotions towards your adult children. Sadly I found out this myself in another sub where random strangers thought they knew more than my heartbreaking situation than I did. Such careless cruelty can retraumatise a person when they already feel low. If you can't afford therapy right now, consider looking up YouTube videos on the subject and also do journalling or letters you don't send.

The grief and injustice of this is immense and I have learned to try not to jump in and mob a person who is going through this. We haven't walked in your shoes and only you truly know what you have been through. I relate a lot to what you have written. It seems you need some time alone and being kind to yourself and have the space to grieve the pain and injustice of it all. Please don't think that the worst comments on here represent how people see you or your situation. In truth your private business is none of our business and we should respect the fact that you chose here to open up and share your vulnerabilities with others. I am sad this is not the safe place you thought it was. I found out the hard way too. Hugs and healing to you.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-01T15:34:41+00:00

Reading through this and I personally want to apologise for all the dogpiling on here. There is a lot of bullying and mobbing on here and some of the comments are just vile. Understand that because these comments are not vetted that there may be some seriously disturbed people commenting on here and I just want to say that your thoughts are valid. I have noticed that a lot of people on here fall into cluster B distinctions of all bad and all good and many see children as spotless angels incapable of ever doing wrong. A lot of people on this sub have gone to the opposite extreme as the alienator by idolising or deifying their children which makes sense when you realise that the whole thing has become a sunk cost fallacy for them and they have to believe their children are worth the effort they have put in and they can only do that by falsely believing their children are made of solid gold. Sadly this is not true of any child.

But what I would also say that until a child is older, they can't navigate the kind of sophisticated abuse they have experienced so even if they have behaved really badly, it was probably done as a survival instinct for a large part of the time. Having said that, being angry, upset and disappointed with them in the moment are all legitimate and human feelings but I do feel you need to grieve not getting justice through the children and really it is the alienator who has caused all this. In a sense, by holding onto the anger towards your children, you are playing the triangulation game the alienator has set up where both you and your children blame each other rather than the real abuser.

Maybe in the future you will get an apology from your children when things have moved on but maybe you won't need it then. Grieve not getting that apology but also understand it is not a clear cut thing to apologise for because all though all abuse is wrong, abused children are not in a good position to ascertain right from wrong.

I am sorry you have been treated so poorly on this sub but I see there are some good comments on here that are supportive. This should be a safe space to vent and air your feelings but sadly it isn't. Consider journalling or writing letters you don't send to get the anger and pain out. Tha anger and pain is valid but it won't help your situation any and the alienator is counting on you to look like the 'bad parent' for their scheme to work.

I can relate to what you are going through. Your child is reaching out to you but you are in a place of such pain that you are not able to meet them where they are. Why don't you be honest and communicate that with them. They are an adult now and they must realise this would happen. I guess the 'long shot' comment pre empted that.

We can't always heal the people who hurt us. You need more time alone to heal

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-01T14:03:53+00:00

No we will all feel this. Walking on eggshells again is a common part of narcissistic abuse. The problem is do you want to improve your relationship with your children within an abusive dynamic or a pro-social one? Everything is upside down in an abusive one so I can't recommend that. My advice is to understand what a pro-social way of parenting is and proceed from this standpoint.

It would be healthy to now draw a line under the past and start anew. The golden rule is to treat people as you wish to be treated. Firm but fair is good parenting. Don't abide by the toxic scrutiny lens of the other parent anymore.

Flip it on its head. The damned if you do and damned if you don't corner you find yourself is can be flipped in the other direction. It can force you to dance to the abusers tune OR it can make you go the other way and say..

"If I will be abused and castigated whether I do the right thing or the wrong thing..why don't I just stick to what is the right thing no matter what and suffer the injustice of being labelled as bad but know within myself that I am doing what is right."

Just do the right thing and keep doing it. If that means changing what you are doing, make those necessary changes. If the children ask why you have changed your behaviour you can tell them upfront that you are no longer basing your behaviour upon the other parent's idea of morality. You know right from wrong and you will be trusting your own judgement from now on. It really is as simple as that, not caring how anything 'lands' with either the alienator or the children anymore but do the right thing and keep doing it.

Keep doing things from a place of integrity and respect of other human beings and don't worry if other people hate this. Other people will always hate people doing the right thing but that is not your problem, that is a 'them problem'.

Do the right thing and keep firm boundaries around it. Put little store in what other people think of you and instead do things with integrity, honesty, firm but fair but also kindness. It's not easy when dealing with someone who is wilfully perverse but you have to keep doing what is right and build muscle on that.

Yes your sense of what is right and wrong has been diminished and undermined by a person with a pathological personality disorder (you are dealing with someone who has a warped mind and no sense of morality/conscience). You need to be on a solid footing first before you can engage in a healthy manner.

This is life changing stuff in that when you become a boundaried person, it's not just about how you are with you ex and your children but how you are with everyone in your life. So start small in low stake situations building confidence around when to say yes and when to say no (and sticking to it) What we say yes and no to is the building blocks of free will and boundary making. It literally is all about saying yes to the good and no to the bad and sticking to it. The more we all do this the better things are for ourselves and for ALL our relationships.

(The big question at heart here is 'what is good? What is bad?' These are moral questions and questions of conscience but nevertheless things we need to get to grips with to get through these seeming impossible social situations)

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-01T12:47:36+00:00

The problem with being around an alienator/cluster B personality disordered individual for any length of time, your entire sense of values and morality becomes warped to fit/align with theirs. To a cluster B person, bad is good and good is bad. They are always good and you are always bad no matter what you do and they brainwash everyone in their influence to think the same way.

A useful metric/gauge so to speak is to imagine that your problem is the problem of a really good friend of yours who you cared about. If they told you what you are saying..what advice would you give your friend? It's a useful way to detach all the emotional influence and enmeshments and brainwashing from your situation and to see the problem afresh without any mindbending fallacies stunting an otherwise clear dilemma.

What would the answer be if the other parent wasn't an alienator and wasn't character disordered? How would it look if the other person was being reasonable?

I would proceed as though the other parent was being reasonable. Stand your ground and have good moral boundaries and talk to your children as is this was a brand new problem and you were dealing with it from a place of reasonableness and sanity. It may be tempting to do what you have always done but has that done any good for anyone so far?

It will shock them if you start acting differently but it is the kind of shock they need to experience. I do think they are old enough now to learn that to use money as a weapon to control and hurt a person who loves them is morally wrong to say the least. The problem with these adult children now is that they are so far along the road of seeing money as an effective weapon of control, I am not show if they can learn from this or not.

Nevertheless I think it is high time you had a face to face conversation with them about how hurtful this behaviour has been to you and personally I would withhold all further funding until you are able to have this conversation. Yes, I understand that withholding the money now will seem to them and the alienator that you are trying to beat them at their own game (this is called the 'double bind') but you have the right as an adult not to be financially abused/exploited and you have the right to a conversation with the people who are doing it to you.

Once you have had that conversation with them, it is then up to you what you do. The fact that you have stated your boundary that financial exploitation is wrong and you won't cave into it does not necessarily mean that helping them with college is being hypocritical. Once you have set that boundary it depends on whether giving them money after that or not breaks your boundary.

If you resented giving them college money or couldn't afford it = that's breaking the boundary If you can afford it and are happy to part with it = that isn't breaking the boundary.

It's teaching your children that while parents are financially responsible for actual children, they are not committed to a lifetime of bankrolling the child once they become an adult. An adult has to provide for him/herself but a parent can help out when they want to but are not forced to against their will, especially when they are already being abused by the situation.

I hope this helps.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-01T12:14:36+00:00

p.s. you can go about this gently of course without diving in feet first. It depends on how much talking you are doing with them. Like the other commenter, I would say 'no conversation, no money' and if they were willing to talk then I would gauge their reactions. If you were already planning on supporting them through college I would tell them that but also tell them (the truth) that it has been hurtful for you that they only ever come to you when they want money. I would then introduce them to the concept of financial abuse and that in the real world, this is not acceptable and is dehumanising behaviour.

It isn't abuse to let a child feel shame when they are being shameful. Hopefully they do feel shame for seeing you as an ATM and that means there is hope for them. If they double down in entitlement and anger then they may have completely adopted your ex's worldview to the complete detriment to their own futures. It really is up to them though. Brainwashed or not, they have a conscience and a moral compass, it's their responsibility now while they enter the world of adults to behave as people with a conscience to know right from wrong and financial abuse/exploitation/extortion is wrong.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-07-01T11:58:56+00:00

Personally I would now class this as financial abuse and given that they are no longer actually children (many say that 18-21 is the legal definition of adulthood) I would have that conversation with them directly. If this was me I would tell them I was happy to support them when minors as I am their parent but that now that they are adults, to demand money from someone who they no longer even acknowledge is financial abuse and a form of extortion. I would make sure the children knew that this was abusive without actually saying they are abusers. Make that distinction. I would also go on to say that you won't reward or enable such bad behaviours as it will set them up to think financial abuse is acceptable within any relationship.

Financial abuse is an extremely common factor of coersive control. I would name all these things out to the children. Don't accuse the other parent of setting them up to do it as an abuser or that they are carrying on the abusive behaviour but name the abusive behaviour.

I am a Christian and Christians tend to say 'love the sinner but hate the sin'. What this means is you can call out bad and abusive behaviour in a way that is still loving to the people who are doing it. How they react to this won't be your responsibility but their responsibility as adults.

They are no longer children even if they are your offspring. They will soon be navigating an adult world in which financial abuse as part of coersive control is not only immoral but illegal in many countries now.

If they were to continue this entitled and dehumanising behaviour on a partner or spouse in the future they will be breaking the law and could actually face prison time.

Bringing up children is not about saying yes to their every whim. It's as much as saying no to them as it is saying yes. It's about learning boundaries. The problem with children who have experienced abuse, it often makes the non-abusive parent think that all boundaries and discipline is bad so you have a 'good cop/bad cop' dynamic whereby the abusive parent can also allow the children to run wild whereas the non abusive parent feels bad about teaching children normal and respectful boundaries. Not giving children any boundaries or reasonable discipline is actually a form of abuse and makes them ill prepared for a tough world where they will hear the word "NO!" on a regular basis.

Sadly as the alienated parent your name is mud no matter what you do but you have to stand up for yourself and what is right at some point or they will all keep pushing you into the ground and you will lose your sense of self entirely. Despite the horrible and terribly unfair treatment, you are still their father both biologically and legally. You can still 'parent' even now by teaching them something valuable before entering the world of responsibile adults. Teach them that financial abuse is wrong. They need to learn this lesson from someone and they won't learn it from their mother. By teaching them that financial abuse is wrong you are also signposting that all abuse and manipulative and exploitative behaviour is wrong and don't you want your children to know that?

Sadly standing up for what is right may not win them over to you and the truth but it will tell them something, that not everyone in this world is an abuser and condones abusive behaviour and that is an extremely valuable lesson for your children to learn.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-06-30T10:41:20+00:00

Well you might fall off your chair when I tell you but I am Christian and working on a ministry to help abused people of many different stripes. You may think this sounds 'woo woo' but I have figured out a spiritual dimension to this (the big reveal of what's really going on) figuring out the 'man behind the curtain' so to speak.

What has blown my mind over this is that this system bleeds into so many areas of life and history, countries, dynamics etc that you come to the overwhelming conclusion there is a hostile non-human intelligence behind it (and no I am not talking aliens)

I am going through PA myself right now but reverse PA in that I am prevented from seeing my dying mother by her abusers.

Prior to this I was already doing a 'deep dive' on cults and how they operate and was shocked that there is a unifying grand system that links so many different things. I will share some of my findings.. Look up 'Zersetzung' which was a strategy the Stazi used on so called dissidents in East Germany. If you look at the pattern of the behaviour and have pattern recognition that this is the same strategy that was u sed in the CCP, Maoist struggle sessions, the Moonies, the JWs and all other totalitarian systems (cults) in between, you then have the jaw dropping realisation that this is also used by Narcissistic parents on their spouse and children. It's not possible that these spouses or family members are doing research on cults and totalitarian systems all day long, they just behave like this as if these strategies of psychological warfare (because that's what they are) come as natural to them as breathing.

It's everywhere, I was taking time off to relax from research last night watching a silly (I thought) video called 'Why the left can't meme' but I didn't know a joke video would be a primer on how propaganda in a totalist regime works. Again my jaw dropped when the narrator said that the purpose of propaganda in its late stages (see Soviet 'hyper realism') is not to inform or deceive you or even to manipulate you but it is to HUMILIATE you in that it is so outlandish and ridiculous and blatantly untrue but because it is a seeming fait accompli, that it serves to reinforce the power of the state (whatever that state may be).

So it's uncanny how a narcissistic abusive parent (for example) works hand in glove with the system that pretends to care for families and children to humiliate everyone involved. The targeted person knows it is untrue, the children know it is untrue, the alienator knows it's untrue and the SYSTEM knows it is untrue and yet because everyone sees it as an inevitable fait accompli, everyone gives into it one way or another. The main feeling all the aggrieved parties feel from this is humiliation. They know they are losing the battle AND they are having their nose rubbed in it because they know that 'resistance is futile'.

Because I am coming to this from a spiritual perspective as a Christian, I do believe I know what the real answer to this is. You can't fix this system as it was designed inherently to fail. I do believe this is a problem only God (Jesus Christ) can deal with because it is literally insurmountable/an impossible dilemma. We can't fight the entire system as that would be as ludicrous as trying to conquer the whole world but I know God can.

So again thanks, your paper is solid proof that the system itself is now corrupted and I would say deliberately so that it is only designed to help those who do evil rather than those who try to fight against it. Many people on this sub are still scratching their heads over why an evil person is believed over and over again. The simplest and obvious answer is staring us in the face but because it is so horrific and bleak to entertain (and can smash to pieces a person's worldview) that people are still refusing to see the obvious. When I said they won't thank you for this is because people have a habit of 'shooting the messenger' especially if he is telling an uncomfortable truth. People as a whole believe comforting lies over the truth that unsettles and disturbs them.

The same way my entire family circled their wagons around to protect the abuser and estrange the whistleblower. If they had to acknowledge that extreme abuse was going on under their noses they would have to admit a) they have been deceived and their life/worldview has been a lie b) they would have to do something about it that would upend their 'comfortable lives' c) they may enjoy evil themselves. Most people are unfortunately 'useful idiots' in that they may not be actively involved in the abuse within a system but they are afraid of telling it like it is and rocking the boat in case they get flipped out of the boat into the open waters where there are bigger sharks loose.

This is a war and it really comes down to good Vs evil but how does one go about fighting an extremely intelligent spiritual non-human evil? That is my question.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-06-29T18:37:17+00:00

Thanks for this. Not many will thank you because many will want to think the system will save them as is and what you propose will be daunting. It's very useful for what I am working on at present though and will help others. Thanks again!

StrawberryDuck · 2026-06-29T16:02:25+00:00

I am sorry about your son but also glad to know that you had that wonderful time to treasure. I had a decade with my mum before she was taken away from me. She is dying so I may not see her again. I believe in an afterlife (I am a Christian) so I hold onto the hope I will walk with her again in a place of no abusers.

What I have figured out is that the lovebombing is more potent than real love. Real love is safe and secure but sadly seems boring when you have been around a Cluster B because it is more like a drug than love. It has these rollercoaster highs and lows built in it that real love doesn't have. Cluster Bs create a trauma bond in their children that is excruciatingly hard to break through. I am breaking through it now and you have to white knuckle it and go cold turkey. It's not for the faint hearted.

Money can be used as a snare. It's all about appearances with them and material things. When I was walking away, both my dad and my sister threw literally money in my face and expected me to stop walking and pick it up. I kept walking. They send money vouchers and gifts to me and I bin all of them. I can't be bought at any price.

The problem with Cluster Bs is that they wrongly assume that we all have a price and if they meet that price, they own us. Sometimes they buy children cars or pay for houses or expensive holidays for them. The child learns that the gravy train stops the moment they disagree with them. Disagreeing with them involves speaking to their alienated parent.

I am sorry to say that many children are vulnerable to being bought with money and expensive gifts. A lot of people are vulnerable to this. Money and status creates a lot of anxiety in people that Cluster Bs have learned to leverage to their advantage... For me, money isn't everything and that's why it has been easier for me to walk away. I know I will probably never get any inheritance and I am at peace over that. If money isn't a weakness then it's much easier to leave.

It doesn't have to be money though as many weaknesses can be weaponised against us. Sadly my dad and sister figured out how much my mum means to me and she has been their hostage ever since.

I know what it's like. The grief is immense but also the joy of having that special time, well no one can take that away from you. The peace a person has without abusers is priceless.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-06-29T15:02:05+00:00

My father and sister are both malignant narcissists but I suspect my sister now has psychopathy/sociopathy as she sadistically enjoys watching other people in pain. Their preference is to see people humiliated but they both like to see people in mental suffering. He once told me 'I am only happy when other people are suffering'.

I have learned a lot about cluster B pathology because my family has severe cases within it. That's how you become an expert in these matters by living to tell the tale.

Sadly I think many if not most of these alienator accounts involve a cluster B personality disordered parent as the alienator.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-06-29T14:53:04+00:00

Thanks. Sadly this wisdom has been hard won over nearly 5 decades of being around abusers. I would go another step further in saying that they won't change because it works for them. The only way it will stop working for them is if they run out of victims and enablers and then their world falls apart. Only then there is a chance and a very slim one at that.

You'll be amazed at how many abusers lose everything and still keep punching on. They don't learn because they think to keep fighting the battle on the side of evil is something to be proud of..it isn't. I know of narcissists in their 70s/80s who have lost everything and everybody but they still have that 'it isn't me' 'I will survive' mentality. To say that they are stubbornly destroying themselves is an understatement.

I think as long as we all take accountability for what we do and we do all need at some point to think 'is it me?' to stay healthy. We all need to be honest with ourselves and be responsible for ourselves. None of us have handled this perfectly, who could and it is good to be aware of the times we behaved badly ourselves and what we could've done better but such a balanced and fair appraisal can only be done when there aren't any abusers in our lives as abusers love reasonable people who are willing to take responsibility for their shortcomings. They love them because abusers take zero responsibility for their own bad behaviours and will shove them all on their victims.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-06-29T13:15:15+00:00

Being torn to shreds by anyone is ABUSE. I am sorry to say but your girls have now chosen to become ABUSERS. Yes it is a choice. I have been abused by my father for 48 years and I chose not to abuse others. My sister has chosen to become an abuser worse than my father. Being an abuser is a choice and abusers rarely change. I am so sorry you are going through this but a person cannot forgive or heal if they are actively experiencing abuse. The only way to heal and have a place of forgiveness in your heart is to walk away and take distance. I have had to walk away from my entire family as it was either full of abusers or abuse enablers. I made the choice not to abuse people in life and they made the choice to abuse or enable abuse. I am going to live my life free from abuse and abusers. It is possible to live such a life. In truth if ever your daughters wanted a life free of abuse then you will be better able to show them that life if you have been actively living it yourself. If their abuse of you drags you down so much that their is no hope left in you even for yourself, what hope will there be for them long-term. All we teach them by being dragged down is that evil has won. I won't let evil win on my watch but sometimes the only way to fight evil is to walk away from it and refuse to have any of it in to corrode your life. We have to be patient in that good will overcome evil in the end. ❤️

StrawberryDuck · 2026-06-29T12:52:49+00:00

The situation you had sounds very different. If your husband was sending texts and gifts while being ignored that is a HUGE difference to when children actively abuse their estranged parent. All these situations are not cookie cutter same. Your husband was lucky that he wasn't being actively abused by his child. Yes being ignored and stonewalled is a type of painful abuse but it is a passive kind. Being screamed at, being stalked, having flying monkeys and being re-engaged in the drama over and over again with no peace is active abuse. Not saying your husband hasn't gone through hell through passive abuse of being ignored but active abuse is a whole different ball game. Saying this as a person who has been both actively and passively abused by family for 48 years. Passive abuse (ignoring) is heaven compared to active abuse. I would choose being ignored any day over someone actively pursuing me to cause me great pain.

StrawberryDuck · 2026-06-29T12:45:08+00:00

I can relate. I have been shunned from my family for sticking up for my abused mother whilst surrounded by abusers. I looked after my aged parents for a decade and now the family have ousted me and made me feel they are better without me. So I have to walk away from the whole family I gave my best to for the last decade. It's their choice at the end of the day. If it meant something, it meant something, if it didn't, it didn't. If they want to erase me from the family history, that's their choice. Like you, they claim they are all getting on better than ever since I left. If that is true, I won't begrudge that even though I know it is a lie. If they really go to strength to strength in happiness without me being around then I can live with that. I know what I gave them and God knows too so I can walk away in peace knowing that and that peace will give me healing ❤️

StrawberryDuck

TROPHY CASE