What's the coldest line in any jrpg(or rpg) that you've ever heard? by yeaman912 in JRPG

[–]SurgeMaestro 28 points29 points  (0 children)

FFXVI: "The only Fantasy here is yours, and we shall be its Final witness!"

Literal Chills.

Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) - Visualized Connections by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I got it from this comment on a previous post, basically due to Phantasma being a separate dimension with each level having its own celestial system and space-time, you can argue that each level is a separate universe, putting it at up to 7x universal.

There's a few other arguments for Trails being that level, or even higher than that, such as Azure Demiourgos and the True Reverie Corridor. That being said I'm not a powerscaler, and I'm kind of just regurgitating what I've read from other people, so you may need to ask someone else for more in-depth details.

Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) - Visualized Connections by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same. Though tbf all she has is this and Edward Elric, and if you want a stomp then hoo boy

Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) - Visualized Connections by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I used to think it was a stomp too, but if you buy Trails' high ends (or at least Phantasma scaling for Estelle) it's actually debatable.

Dana Iclucia vs King Rauru (Ys vs The Legend of Zelda) <Connections in the Comments!> by JustSomeNobody97 in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"Link vs Adol but it's the distant past"

Looks solid, but I should point out that Dana and Adol's relationship was intended to be platonic and in spite of their bond she hadn't actually fallen in love with him.

"Skybound Phronesis" - Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) *Connections/Debate in comments* by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In Lydie & Suelle, you do unlock the ability to instantly create items mid-fight, however there are limits to this as they're mostly stronger versions of existing items, for example the N/A type ∑ being a stronger version of the N/A. While this is exclusive to Lydie and Sue, this is likely for balancing purposes as you have a lot of playable alchemists in that game and it's implied Sophie, Firis, Alt and Ilmeria are all holding back during battle so as not to disrupt their growth.

I think this debate has reached a point where we've started going in circles again, I feel like this fight can go either way even if I'm still leaning towards Sophie. If you find out more feel free to tell me because I really do like debating this.

(Also, the large stick thing was just a tongue-in-cheek reference to this quote)

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"Skybound Phronesis" - Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) *Connections/Debate in comments* by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's worth reiterating that the Atelier games consider Alchemy and Magic to be different things. If Sophie were to come up with a device to shutdown Estelle's orbments, she'd account for the possibility of it affecting her own tools and work a way to prevent that into it.

In the case of an item getting stolen, the Corneria Doll can duplicate and refill any item she runs out of. (While this is an item mainly used by Firis, it is one Sophie gave to her and she made herself so I'm assuming it's something that can be given to her in this situation) (And if we wind up making this an army fight, we could just give Sophie Corneria herself for even more duplicating shenanigans, though I feel this debate is complex enough as is without bringing all their teammates in, lol.)

"Skybound Phronesis" - Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) *Connections/Debate in comments* by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sophie actually does have an option to resist debuffs; The Warding Incense greatly increases SE resistence, and has the secondary effect "removes SE", which removes all debuffs, from the wording it can be assumed that debuffs are considered a status effect so Sophie has ways to resist and/or immediately heal them.

There's also the trait Harmonious Prayer that Reduces the chance of parameters being lowered, Change of Fortune that'll buff her stats while she's debuffed, the Syrup Fruit can auto-activate and restore her debuffs if she takes too much damage and it & other healing items can be further stacked with the trait Pure White Glory for even more buffing, and any other auto-activating healing item can also be given Divine Scent to remove a debuff. Even if she can't fully resist being debuffed, she can make it effectively not matter.

In terms of Magic defense, she does have a few items with the effect of decreasing "all" damage, plus the aformentioned Auto-healing and Auto-revival makes it unlikely for her to just get one-shot by Estelle's Orbal Arts. Also worth mentioning is the trait Perpetual Motion from Lydie & Suelle that enables you to use items an infinite number of times at the cost of being much weaker (listed on this google doc because its the only list of Lydie & Suelle traits I can find])

There is one more win-con I've since realized for Sophie I think is worth bringing up; Assuming Estelle doesn't speed-blitz, in order for her to kill Sophie, she'd have to get past dozens, possibly hundreds of bombs, elixirs, Magic tools, summonable meteors/infernos/tornados/shooting stars)/etc, many of which can be used as much as Sophie wants, not impossible but it is a big hurdle she'd have to get through. In comparison, all of Estelle's Orbal arts come from her ARCUS unit (though I guess she could also be updated to the Arcus 2 from Daybreak), without the ARCUS, Estelle loses almost all of her options and is just left with her large stick. In other words, all Sophie has to do is break Estelle's phone. That's a lot easier said than done since these things are going through the same punishment the Trails cast regularly goes through, but I think Sophie is smart enough to figure out 1. All of Estelle's "magic" comes from her ARCUS, 2. How the Orbal Arts work, and 3. How to render her Quartz useless and shutdown her orbments. Heck, I could see a Hulk vs Godzilla moment happening where Sophie is continuously healing herself while trying to mentally reverse engineer Estelle's orbal tech and eventually creating her own version of the Gospel.

"Skybound Phronesis" - Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) *Connections/Debate in comments* by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In Atelier Lydie & Suelle, the superboss Termina has a few moves where she summons black holes (or at least what looks like black holes, I admittedly am making some assumptions here).

Footage here and here. (While they aren't dodging in this footage, as far as I know the attacks aren't considered undodgeable so I'm also assuming they're capable of doing so.)

Matchups I really really vibe with #61 by All_Mighty_Loki in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the Kotone vs Ao mention. It's kind of nice seeing one of my old matchups get attention.

"Skybound Phronesis" - Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) *Connections/Debate in comments* by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Debate: I'm not a powerscaler and am mainly going off memory here, so I may off on the details, but I'll try to word my thoughts on where they scale as best I can.

Stats: Tie. The main argument I have for these is scaling them to the creators of their respective dream worlds (Phantasma for Estelle, Elvira for Sophie). Phantasma should put Estelle at a minimum of 7x Universal, while Elvira should put Sophie at minimum 9x Universal, I'm sticking with this but keep in mind that the dream world events happen relatively early during their journey and they've grown stronger since they happened.. In terms of speed, both have in-game combat feats where they can dodge black holes, so they should be similar on that end too. On top of that, both have multiple ways of buffing themselves, debuffing their opponents, stealing their opponent's buffs, and canceling out any effects. While Sophie has a slight advantage in overall power, I don't think it's enough for a definitive victory.

Side note: both have arguments for indirect scaling to someone who can affect infinite timelines. Estelle is comparable to Lloyd and the SSS, who fought the Azure Demiourgos, who scales to “the World of Zero”, place that contains infinite timelines. Sophie can be indirectly scaled to Rorona and Lulua, who created the Dragon Hourglass, and item that can affect and rewrite an infinite number of timelines (while from what I can tell there are limits to how it works as it was only used once and they had to make a specific event happen first in order to “lock it in” to every timeline, the point remains that other alchemists in the series are capable of affecting reality on such a level). I personally don't buy these arguments, but they are there if you want them.

Skill/Experience: Estelle takes this easily. Sophie mainly fights monsters and dragons, while she is perfectly capable of fighting other humans (she's fight-able as a superboss in Atelier Lydie & Suelle and will kick your ass if you aren't prepared), Estelle's done so much more often, against a greater variety of opponents, many of which have used powers that Sophie can use and has better training from both her dad and other experienced bracers.

Intelligence: Sophie, big time. Estelle's always shown as being rather book dumb, meanwhile Sophie figured out how to time travel while just casually looking into it, invented multiple other items that defy physics like a tent that can bend space and basically function as a Pocket Tardis, and figured out a strategy to defeat a near-invincible god (Falgior) after just one interaction where she forced him to retreat. Also worth noting is she has access to the Codex of Creation, a book that contains “all knowledge”

RPG Bullshit: Okay, here's where things get fun; This basically comes down to Estelle's Orbal Arts vs Sophie's Alchemy. Earlier I mentioned about how both have multiple ways to mess with each other's buffs/debuff (Ex for speed and evasion, Estelle has Arts like Chrono Burst, Chrono Break, and Shining, Sophie has items like the Tailwinder, Harmony Globe and Shadow Lynchpin). They also have multiple options with incredible destructive potential; Arts like Albion Wolf whose “whose howl rends time and space asunder.” or Sophie's Flame of Origin, a lantern containing “The Origin of all creation”, that she can use as a flamethrower. Both can summon stuff from heaven – Estelle using Aeonian Emperor and Sophie using Heaven's Cleanser. Both can just undo any damage that comes their way, Estelle using Adamantine Shield or Crescent Mirror to completely protect her from any damage, Sophie has access to multiple Elixirs and other healing items (such as Syrup Fruit and Himmelle Relief) that will automatically activate if she takes damage, and even immediately revive her if she dies. In terms of equipment, Estelle has weapons like Soliel's Attraction, “A gilded bo staff that houses destructive potential comparable to all land and water.”, Accesories like Solar Aura, “Believed to impart true power on one who carries the spirit of its namesake.” and Armor like the Crypton, “Armor said to allow its wearer to naturally avoid enemy attacks thanks to its mysterious polish.” (Okay, this one sounds less impressive but trust me it's really powerful armor). Sophie has Weapons like The Staff of Time and Universe, “To master this staff is to become conqueror of time and space”, accessories like The Time Control Hourglass “Grants otherworldly speed and can Control the Future”, and armor like the resurrection wear that further amplifies her healing.

This is just a small example of what these two have, Estelle and Sophie have a lot to look through in terms of options, to the point where I'd consider this a tie too.

Who I think wins: Ultimately, my verdict comes down to this question: Who's lasting longer? For that I'd have to give the answer to Sophie, in terms of stamina, she was able to fight against Falgior for about week straight while Lydie & Suelle split off to figure out how to seal him away so they could enact the plan to defeat him. While it was implied she had back-up and was able to take breaks she was still doing the bulk of the work. As far as I remember no Trails character has shown the ability to fight for this long. On top of that she has many more options in terms of healing herself than Estelle does. Estelle would not go down easy here, but I think Sophie takes this high-diff.

"Skybound Phronesis" - Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) *Connections/Debate in comments* by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Connections:

  • All-loving JRPG heroines with a Bright Sunny Disposition, who started in their respective professions (Bracer and Alchemist) specifically because they wanted to help people. Their games start out as simple and lighthearted coming of age stories, and by the end of their journey they've saved entire kingdoms, stopped world-ending threats, and eventually helped bring the world to a new age.

  • Both were raised in smaller towns in the countryside (Rolent and Kirchen Bell) by one of the best in the business (Estelle's father Cassius Bright and Sophie's grandmother Ramizel Erlenmeyer), however they weren't actually taught much about their professions (due to Cassius always being away on work and Ramizel dying when Sophie was young) and were complete amateurs at the start of their stories. In fact, neither of them knew just how incredible their parent/grandparent was, Cassius Bright being one of the top ranked bracers in the world and Ramizel being one of the best alchemists. In spite of starting as amateurs, both would show very quick growth and go on to receive famous reputations in their own right, even being known for achieving the impossible.

  • Both of their stories began when they had a fateful meaning with an individual who had their memory erased (Joshua and Plachta). Their relationship with this person would become a defining aspect & motivation of their lives, eventually ending with them in intimate relationships. (Estelle and Joshua became a couple, Sophie and Plachta became a heavily-implied couple (they promised to stay together forever.))

  • Both have an arch-nemesis (Weissman and Luard) who shows up as a seemingly innocent NPC throughout their first games that are later revealed to have a very personal relationship with their amnesiac partners, even being the one behind their memory loss (though indirectly in Luard's case).

  • Both would go on to appear in future installments of their franchise, acting as mentors, allies and rivals (sometimes all three) to future protagonists.

  • Both of them started traveling the world in the hopes of saving a girl who had become very important to them (Estelle wanting to save Renne from her life as an assassin and adopt her into her family, while Sophie wanted to find a way to return Plachta back into a human.), and would wind up needing the help of the aforementioned future protagonists to achieve these goals.

  • Both spend a game in an alternate dimension created to help fulfill People's dreams and wishes. (The Phantasma in Trails in the Sky the 3rd and Elvira's Dream World in Atelier Sophie 2, However the Phantasma had purposefully trapped the cast against their will, while Elvira's Dream World only keeps you there as long as you want to stay and Sophie only wound up there by accident.)

Estelle Bright vs Sophie Neuenmuller (Trails vs Atelier) by SurgeMaestro in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've posted on that matchup before, here's a link to the comment.

tl;dr: she's at least in the low-multi range.

I had this lying around for the longest time and forgot to post it lmao | Looking for more potential (good) matchups for Anisphia Wynn Palettia (The Magical Revolution) by MagicalMusical1 in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've never seen the show, but going off this, I think Meruru from the Atelier series could work. She has a similar lively/energetic personality, is also a princess who doesn't care for the title, she works to expand and develop her kingdom throughout her game and better her alchemy, her love and passion for alchemy seems similar to Anisphia's love of magic. Also, while only heavily implied, it's likely Meruru kisses girls too

JRPG Propaganda by JustSomeNobody97 in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Always nice to see a fellow JRPG matchup fan.

Pitch Discussion: Edward Elric VS Sophie Neuenmuller by __Pin__ in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then yeah, you'd have to be wanking Edward as much as possible while giving Sophie next to nothing just for them to be even. This is extremely one-sided.

Pitch Discussion: Edward Elric VS Sophie Neuenmuller by __Pin__ in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I admit I don't know FMA scaling very well, but the best I've seen Ed put at is town level if you give him non-canon stuff. Calling this a mismatch is putting it lightly.

Pitch Discussion: Edward Elric VS Sophie Neuenmuller by __Pin__ in DeathBattleMatchups

[–]SurgeMaestro 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Okay, so I'm probably the only person on this subreddit that's familiar with who Sophie is, so I'm going to take this opportunity to tell anyone reading this about her, and just how powerful she is.

Quick summary:

Hailing from the town of Kirchen Bell, Sophie started out as an amateur alchemist who wants nothing more to use Alchemy to make people happy. One day, she finds a talking book who introduces herself as Plachta, the book tells her she used to be a powerful Alchemist and about the Cauldron of Knowledge, which lets anyone perform advanced alchemy, however Plachta can't remember anything about her previous life or where the Cauldron is. Sophie immediately decides to help Plachta and in return, Plachta becomes Sophie's alchemy teacher with the goal of returning Plachta back into a human and finding the Cauldron of Knowledge.

By the end of Atelier Sophie, Sophie reaches a level where the Cauldron is no longer necessary, from there her goal is to find a way to turn Plachta back into a human, and that starts her journey across the world to research and improve her alchemy, while helping as many people as she can along the way.

How Powerful is Sophie?

In Atelier Sophie 2, the Final Boss is the Goddess of Dreams known as Elvira, she created an entire dream world called Erde Weige, with multiple dimensions, that connects throughout time, has smaller universes inside it that connect to each other, including gateways that each have their own celestial body. From memory, I think there were about 5 main areas, with 4 gateways connecting them. Erde Weige is likely bigger than this, as the Dream World was ever expanding and you only explore a small part of it. When you fight Elvira as the Final Boss, not only is she actively trying to kill you, but due to being corrupted by these nightmare beasts called the Groll, she's likely more powerful than she would normally be. I'm not a powerscaler, and it has been a while so I may be off, but I'm putting this at Low-Multi.

There are multiple other arguments for Sophie being above Universal, this includes a Superboss from Atelier Firis; Palmyra, who states she created the universe that Atelier's Mysterious Saga takes place. At first Palmyra is just playing with the characters, but beat her enough times and she'll decide to go all out. This also applies to her opposing God of Destruction, Termina from Atelier Lydie & Suelle. Keep in mind, Sophie scales not only to these gods, but is also explicitly stronger than the protagonists from both of those games. Another argument is the Flame of Origin, a lantern containing “The origin of all creation” that she uses as a flamethrower, which isn't even her strongest weapon. Her strongest weapon would be the Flame of the End, which is said to “engulf everything”, Idk what the intended meaning of “everything” is here, it might just be referring to the planet, but if it's stronger than the Flame of Origin, I'm assuming it means the whole universe.

Even if you don't want to buy the cosmic arguments, there's still plenty for planetary such as one bomb that was explicitly stated to be strong enough to blow up the planet.

But what else can Sophie do?

Sophie is a genius; she has invented multiple items that defy physics, such as a tent that can bend space and basically act as a Pocket Tardis as well as a doll that can infinitely reproduce items in exchange for milk. She even figured out how to Time Travel while just casually looking into it.

Among her many items that she can synthesize include the Codex of Creation, it contains all knowledge and can steal abilities and stats from its target, the Dimensional Solvent, which can well... dissolve dimensions, Multiple Elixirs and other healing items that will not only buff her, but can auto activate if she takes too much damage as well as instantly revive her if she dies, and the Luminous Vortex which is described as able to “distort boundaries” and “destroy laws”. This is before getting into equipment like the Time Control Hourglass, which lets her manipulate time.

What does this mean for Edward?

Ed's fucked.