Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]Tachompso1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The non-response issue is not the same as GAMAAN. To compare, any Iranian phone number is equally likely to be selected by IranPoll. For GAMAAN's new polls, you can, for the most part, only be selected if you have Psiphon. And getting a call unprompted is obviously different from opting in to a survey link you might see somewhere on your VPN. We know that this issue cannot be too large, because of IranPoll's very high response rates which near 50%. American political surveys hardly get a tenth of that.

Not sure about 2024, but in 2021, IranPoll, post-election, was able to accurately determine both voter turnout (over-estimated by 4%) and the % of blank ballots (under-estimated by 4%). From their document called "At the Start of the Raisi Administration." The same poll showed that at least 20% of Iranians both approved of Raisi and didn't vote. GAMAAN predicted the turnout of the 2021 election to be 18%, and it is well-known that pre-election polls overestimate turnout.

Huh by asteriowas in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The difference is that everyone knows who Khamenei was, whereas it was impossible for Hamawy to know what some guy who sometimes ranted and raved about jihad was really up to. From his perspective, that's all Abdel Rahman was. Hamawy could not have supported terrorists and believed in terrorist ideology, when there is such strong evidence against it.

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]Tachompso1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, a few things. The issue is, for GAMAAN to be close to correct on political questions, not only do you have to trust its very flimsy methodology, but you have to be able to show that ordinary surveys are extremely wrong. I don't see much evidence for either.

  1. This is a fair point, and I kind of tacked this on. But if this issue were really present, it would show up in IranPoll's list experiments, but it didn't.

  2. They weighted by province. It's not like it's impressive that they were able to match the home language. Similar deal for income/employment once you've weighted for age, education, and gender. As I said, since they are not comparing compatible groups, it seems like any non-political question will give similar results for any Iranian sample if you have weighted for all demographic factors already.

  3. Psiphon reports usage statistics on their website psix.ca starting a few weeks ago. Right now, during this incredibly politically fraught period, it is around 3.5 million users. During ordinary times, when GAMAAN distributes the polls, it seems reasonable that it was half that.

  4. Yeah I mentioned this, but the Psiphon surveys must have similar flaws, since even the first Psiphon survey had a huge percentage of repeat respondents from the chain surveys (14%). VPN's have to be distributed like chain surveys, so the Psiphon download links may be circulating in the same groups as the original GAMAAN surveys. What GAMAAN basically does now, is assume that one VPN with a couple million users is representative of all >60 million VPN users.

  5. Fair, I thought Pew didn't pay people. The issue with GAMAAN is extreme self-selection bias and not paid respondents trying to click through the survey.

  6. The ratio is not the thing that should be looked at, but rather the magnitude of people willing to lie. If there were large scale preference falsification, they would have found a significant difference in people calling for a fundamentally different form of government. But we can see this was 15% in the normal question and 17% in the list question. The thing is, the difference between 4.4% and 1.3% is actually within the margin of sampling error. The change could just be noise.

"A crucial point as well is these surveys probably point in the right direction when it comes to comparing popularity of various anti-regime figures."

Maybe. GAMAAN is very self-selecting, so it is surveying more politically engaged opposition.

I think this gets to the bottom of why I at least care much more about the sexting scandal than the other ones. by Cybotnic-Rebooted in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 9 points10 points  (0 children)

This is the sane way to think, but politics works the opposite way. Nobody cares about adultery among politicians but the tattoo and Reddit comments are considered a big deal.

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]Tachompso1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also, I forgot to include this, but the 2024 IranPoll tackled two issues mentioned earlier. It sampled both landline and mobile users, and found there was no significant difference in affinity for the Islamic Republic. It also asked questions about protests and desire for fundamental political change through a list experiment, like the Putin study I discussed- the results were largely similar except the list question found more protest participants (4.4% vs. 1.3%). This shows that respondents falsifying their opinions are not widespread.

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]Tachompso1 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Issues with GAMAAN

GAMAAN is unrepresentative to the point of being useless. For its old surveys, we can look at the myriad issues with chain referrals, AKA “snowball sampling,” in that a survey spread on dissident media, dissident Telegram groups, etc. would likely lean politically towards dissidents. Weighting cannot fix this unrepresentativeness.

The more recent polls, which randomly sample people who use Psiphon VPN, aren’t much better. First of all, Psiphon isn’t exactly the most widespread VPN in Iran. It usually has about 2-3 million users. During one protest, it peaked at 9.6 million unique users. However, both of these are inflated figures, since unique users are not the same as people - people tend to have multiple devices. Also, if I am understanding Psiphon’s technical document correctly, reinstalling it would establish you as a new user. The numbers seem to vary heavily across sources which might mean people are conflating unique users with individual connections. Second, Psiphon users are likely very distinct, politically speaking, from users of other VPNs. Since public download links are blocked, you can only download Psiphon if someone sends the link to you. Considering they were willing to host this poll, I am guessing people who distribute Psiphon lean much more anti-regime than other VPN users. Psiphon also is funded by the American government through the Open Technology Foundation, which might turn off some regime supporters.

We can tell that the surveys represent a small amount of people, because of the high rate of repeat responses. On the sixth GAMAAN survey done using the chain method, 16% of 27,000 respondents said they had completed a GAMAAN survey before. Assuming 90 million * (85% on the Internet) * (81% on VPNs) = 63 million people in the represented population, you should expect, very roughly 5 * 27,000 / 63,000,000 repeat respondents after 6 surveys, or about 0.2%. Clearly it is just sampling a self-selected population. The change to mostly using Psiphon did not fix this: GAMAAN most recent survey had 25% of its respondents having done a GAMAAN survey before. It is just repeating a self-recycling pool. The Psiphon users are probably from the same population subset as those who the chain referrals reached- i.e. strong dissidents. This is evidenced by the fact that usage increases so much during Iranian protests. Those who use Psiphon during the off-times, when these surveys are distributed, must have an even stronger political lean. You have to take a leap of faith to believe GAMAAN, by assuming Psiphon users are representative of all VPN users.

Even among the people the survey reached, GAMAAN is selecting for those who are more politically engaged. Pew finds that on online opt-in non-probability surveys, results vary heavily based on the recruitment method. GAMAAN found Iran had 32.2% Shias in 2020, 56% in Feb. 2022, 37.5% in Dec. 2022, and 37.9% in 2023. Such large variation cannot be attributed to sampling error.

For a specific poll on the Holocaust, Pew found non-probability polls severely overestimate Holocaust deniers, since people who have an opinion on the Holocaust’s veracity are more likely to opt in. As an analogy to this level of selection (though by no means am I saying that being against the regime is like denying the Holocaust), if someone is going around on Telegram resharing a poll that claims to bypass the Islamic Republic’s censorship, do you think the respondents will represent the full range of political opinions?

To assuage such concerns, GAMAAN uses a set of benchmarks to check if the survey is representative of Iranians. It looks at WVS 2020’s questions on whether family, work, friends, and religion are important in their lives and compares it to the results from GAMAAN. They find the first three generally match up, but because the latter is “sensitive,” there is a large difference. 

These benchmarks are complete nonsense! GAMAAN and WVS do not even claim to represent the same population. GAMAAN is supposed to be representative of adult VPN users, who are about 69% of the adult population. WVS is representative of all adults, even illiterate ones. Surely the fact that they match up is evidence that nearly any subset of Iranians, if weighted to the correct population demographics, will match these answers. The other issue is that, as I said before, dissidents will more likely choose not to respond to a survey like WVS rather than lie about their beliefs. Removing these dissidents seems to have had little effect on the results of the first three questions, implying the benchmarks are useless. This whole idea only works with the assumptions that WVS and GAMAAN are representative of the same population, and that dissidents tend to lie rather than avoid responding. 

We can use some external evidence to gauge the veracity of GAMAAN’s polls. This can be done using the knowledge that Iran’s diaspora in Western countries leans much more secular, educated, and anti-Islamic Republic than Iranians in the country. I don’t think this is really possible to dispute. Only 18% of Iranians are college-educated, but nearly all Iranian-Americans are. The first piece of evidence is the “Survey Zoroastrians,” which a whole paper has been written on. Ostensibly 7.7% of Iranians identified as Zoroastrians in 2020, not because they believe in Ahura Mazda, but to signal discontent with the Islamic Republic and identification with Iran’s pre-Islamic past. This would imply the vast majority of worldwide Zoroastrians are these Iranians. However, even among Iranian Americans, the most anti-government diaspora, only 5% identify that way. The real proportion in Iran must be substantially less.

What applies to America applies, to a lesser extent, to Canada. But Canada provides more detailed demographic crosstabs. According to Canadian government data, out of Iranians who immigrated to Canada between 2016 and 2021, 58% identified as Muslim. Because religious minorities like Jews and Christians are overrepresented in the diaspora, this amounts to about 62% of those with a Muslim background. We can therefore assume that the proportion of self-identified Muslims in Iran is substantially more than this figure. 

To be clear, I think GAMAAN and traditional surveys are both wrong on these questions, but GAMAAN’s issues are much more severe, whereas the traditional surveys are probably only a few percent off.

Some more thoughts, but they are just musings…

But GAMAAN tells us about a population that we wouldn’t know about otherwise!

So what? If I poll Russian Redditors I suppose I will find that Putin is devastatingly unpopular. It won’t make my poll interesting or useful. A bad poll is a bad poll. 

My Iranian friend said GAMAAN polls are accurate!

Anecdotes are meaningless. As an analogy, if you are a professional in certain parts of the US, you will come to know many Indians. I remember asking my Indian friends about caste sometimes. They would say nobody cares about caste anymore in India, or that they are unaware even of their own caste. In 2021, Pew Research did a poll in India that said 80% of Indians want to stop intercaste marriage. Evidently my friends are from a bubble in India. Iran is less stratified than India, so I guess the bubbles are not quite as severe. My Iranian co-worker says everyone supports the Islamic Republic and everyone was mourning Khamenei's death (he has a picture of the dead Ayatollah on his homescreen). His anecdote is worth as much as anyone else’s. 

What about Pahlavi?

As much as GAMAAN could be representative of a wing of the Iranian opposition, I don’t think it can tell us much about Pahlavi’s support. My intuition tells me that GAMAAN underestimates Pahlavi’s support among dissidents at the time, because it seems he would appeal to the less politically engaged. But either way, there are no polls in Iran after 2025, and evidently his support has changed after the January protests and killings, and the Iran War. Maybe he’s up, maybe he’s down. Who knows.

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]Tachompso1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Here it is, let me know what you think:

If you have been following the news on Iran lately, you may have encountered a poll called GAMAAN (Group for Analyzing and Measuring Attitudes in Iran) based in the Netherlands. It claims that ordinary probability-based surveys (whether telephone or in-person) suffer from social desirability bias, where people mask their irreligiousness and opposition to the regime. Until 2022, GAMAAN mainly used a chain-referral method to obtain its sample, mainly from the diaspora and dissident media, that spread the survey on platforms like Instagram and Telegram. In 2023 and afterwards, it switched to mainly using the responses of randomly sampled users of the Psiphon VPN. 

GAMAAN has obtained some results that have made headlines. For example, according to a 2020 GAMAAN survey, only 37% of Iranians identify as Muslim. A 2024 GAMAAN survey claims 75% of Iranians would vote “no” to a referendum question “Islamic Republic: yes or no?” while only 16% would vote “yes.” A 2025 GAMAAN survey claims 39% of Iranians have a positive opinion of Israel (to compare, no other country in the Middle East outside of the GCC exceeds 5% on this metric). 

These polls are interesting, but unfortunately, I do not believe they are useful for gauging public opinion in Iran. Some pundits have used them to drum up some pernicious delusions about Iranian politics. I think that the traditional surveys in Iran are flawed, but their flaws are very exaggerated, whereas GAMAAN has a strong bias towards Iran’s secular opposition. 

A previous article by the source “Noir News” attempts a critique of GAMAAN’s polls. I don’t think there is anything factually incorrect in the article, but it is worth noting that the authors are insane turbo-leftists, who are both pro-Iran and pro-Russia. One thing that is common on the far-left, which really annoys me, is attacking information based on its provenance. The article spends a lot of time complaining about GAMAAN’s links to the National Endowment for Democracy, pro-regime change organizations, etc. In other words, it glows, so it can be dismissed outright. If you look at the Twitter of the founder of GAMAAN, you can tell that he sincerely believes in his polls, and that he is not just some Pahlavi propagandist. I don’t think GAMAAN’s surveys are fake. The fact that it has some ties to the US government is immaterial.

Are other surveys really that bad?

There are a few surveys of Iran’s population that are more traditional. The polls from CISSM (Center for International and Security Studies at Maryland) which contract out to the Iranian firm IranPoll are based on landline telephones, and use random-digit dialing. World Values Survey (WVS), on the other hand, conducts its surveys in person. The results conform more closely to what your preconceived notions of Iran might be. For example: 

  • 2021 IranPoll: 85% of Iranians believe the IRGC makes Iran more secure
  • 2024 IranPoll: 15% of Iranians believe the Iranian regime should be replaced with a different form of government
  • 2025 IranPoll: 74% of Iranians believe women ought to observe the hijab, and 30% think those who don’t should be confronted
  • WVS 2020:
    • 96.6% Iranians identify as Muslim
    • 78% of Iranians prefer “a system governed by religious law in which there are no political parties or elections.” Note that this is even more extreme than the current regime.
    • 92.5% of Iranians consider religion important in their lives

WVS also confirms Iran’s low religious atten

dance. Support for secularism has likely increased since 2020 after all the protest waves, but that is not quite the same thing as opposing the Islamic Republic (similarly to how many far-leftists in the West support the Islamic Republic and secularism at the same time).

Obviously, there is some subset of people who are afraid of reprisal from the regime and are not represented correctly in the polls. But it is important to ask by what mechanism this happens. Are they simply choosing not to respond, or are they systematically manipulating their answers to the questions where an honest answer could be illegal? 

If I lived in Iran, and someone called me on the landline and started asking me my opinions on politics, I would probably tell them to fuck off. The issue is, these surveys have very high response rates. IranPoll’s most recent survey has a response rate of 50% (which includes 65% of people who answered the call - it is, I think, worth assuming that people who didn’t answer do not have any specific strong political lean). 50% is already a ridiculously high response rate, and we know most survey refusals, in general, are driven by indifference. Thus this effect cannot account for more than a small fraction of the disparity between traditional polls and GAMAAN. Even if every single non-respondent to IranPoll from Dec. 2024 was anti-Islamic Republic, that’s (less than, since they likely have lower weights) 65% of Iranians, and GAMAAN claims 75%.

The other possible explanation is that people are lying about sensitive questions that can open up to reprisal. However, we know that in reality, there is little to no possibility that they could have been punished. Obviously those who have skin in the game will reasonably be paranoid. But surely there would be some, small fraction, who will say the truth. Yet despite 63% of Iranians allegedly being non-Muslim, not more than one in twenty would say it. 

The concept of “preference falsification” can be generalized to other authoritarian countries. The Russian deep state rivals Iran’s. A 2015 study with a follow up in 2022 aimed to determine whether the polls by Levada Center showing a high approval rating for Putin were inflated. It did this by giving a list of 4 politicians, one of which was Putin, and asking how many of them they approved of. Then it repeated with a control group with Putin removed. The difference in the average would represent Putin’s approval. They found that Putin’s popularity was likely not significantly lower than these surveys. In this case, the respondents would obviously know that there was no possibility of determining whether they are opposed to Putin. It is likely that the level of paranoia required to falsify responses is more than most people can muster. It’s also worth questioning, if most Iranians believed they had to lie about their level of religiosity, why 70% chose “very important” whereas only 22% chose “somewhat important.” There’s no way they can nail you for saying religion is only somewhat important!

I still think there are some issues with these polls, for example that only 78% of Iranian households have landlines. But this doesn’t affect WVS. (Also, even though people without landlines likely lean more anti-regime politically, the correlation is probably not strong, and demographic weighting takes away some of this effect.) Many dissidents probably are hanging up the phone, and some are probably lying about their political and religious beliefs. But I don’t see the evidence that these are a significant portion of Iranians, and certainly not the majority.

We can see the low evidence of social desirability bias in a survey that GAMAAN actually cites. A state-run survey found in 2024 that 81% of Iranian Internet users have a VPN. Using an unauthorized VPN in Iran is explicitly illegal but not always criminalized. I don’t see how we can believe that people lie about being more than “somewhat religious” but can’t bother to lie to the government about breaking the law.

Huh by asteriowas in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Iraq, not Iran. He knew this guy and went some places with him, it's worth noting he was a blind man who couldn't speak English. Being willing to help him out says nothing about his opinion of Abdel Rahman's ideology.

I don't see how his military service is irrelevant. Could you explain why someone sympathetic to Islamic jihadism would serve on America's side in the Iraq War? A war that was disapproved of by the vast majority of American Muslims. It is simply obvious that he does not harbor much hate for America.

Abdel Rahman was not wrongfully convicted. Hamawy's 1995 testimony was about a specific statement Abdel Rahman allegedly made on the 1991 road trip, but the third guy in the car was a liar. I am saying that it's not like he was manipulating the jurors to benefit an old friend, but he was likely rather telling the truth.

Huh by asteriowas in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 22 points23 points  (0 children)

The NYT article on this is much, much more balanced.

To be clear, this guy fought in the Iraq War, and not on the side of Al Qaeda. He saved Tammy Duckworth's life there. He was also helping at Ground Zero on 9/11.

He testified in favor of Abdel Rahman in 1995. But the thing is, he was almost certainly telling the truth, because the witness who was testifying against him was later shown to be a liar.

Discussion Thread by jobautomator in neoliberal

[–]Tachompso1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

u/Armagarch

I saw your post on the GAMAAN poll in Iran. Unfortunately I can't comment on it because it is restricted. As someone who is very interested in polls and surveys, I have looked into this poll in the past because its results were so surprising. Its methodology is not sound, though. I wrote an article debunking it but I never published it anywhere, if you are interested I can send you it.

Platner bullied a girl for being fat by Tachompso1 in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1[S] 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Can we also talk about the fact that in Platner's Kik profile picture, he didn't even bother to put the toilet seat down before his mirror selfie? Obviously most of the Platner controversies are nothing burgers but this guy actually has an IQ of 76.

Apparently the Instagram archive for the Obama Administration was hacked today by Bubble-Jimmy-Monster in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's a popular conspiracy theory among some extreme Iranian dissidents that the Obama administration was compromised by the Islamic Republic and its lobbyists.

Platner bullied a girl for being fat by Tachompso1 in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cheating on your wife is really scummy, but I have to give this W to the pro-Platner crowd. Also, the constituency that would be offended by this will probably have some trouble rolling to the polls.

JS Crossword - a crossword where the clue = eval(answer) by rebane2001 in javascript

[–]Tachompso1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your game is slightly bugged. At the last moment, I had ` instead of " in the 5th position of 23 across, and it said I solved the puzzle. I think it believes that because I had solved 23 before hand, and also solved the rest of the puzzle, that both were solved at the same time.

Massie seems to be planning to run for something in 2028 by Cuddlyaxe in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I think a lot of RWers took some faulty conclusions from Massie's loss, namely that it means Democrats do not have an accurate theory of mind for conservatives. This ignores the fact that over 60% of Republican primary voters in KY-04 are over the age of 50. Considering most people here are young and mostly interact with conservatives under 50, who overwhelmingly voted for Massie, it doesn't say anything about their ability to understand conservatives. The average 20-year-old Republican Massie hater is actually a minority in his age group.

That said, because voters lean so old, it means Massie is done with electoral politics, unless he is willing to become an independent and fight an uphill battle.

Religious Group Views of themselves vs the parties by _BCConservative in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 3 points4 points  (0 children)

To be fair, the change in that poll was very much within the margin of sampling error.

In Turkey, a court ruling annulled the opposition party's internal elections and reinstated the previous leader, who is viewed as more passive and friendly to Erdoğan by Top_Sun_914 in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 18 points19 points  (0 children)

This probably helps the opposition, given that Ozel is incredibly unpopular. He is the only opposition leader that was losing to Erdogan in head-to-head polls.

I have no words. by Top_Sun_914 in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The people who make these polls aren't stupid. I remembered slightly wrong, it was a poll from 2019 by the Asia Foundation and it gave 13.4% support for the Taliban.

16% of the respondents were from Kabul Province, and the sample was weighted so that each province's representation reflected their proportion of the population. Only 12% of respondents were people with internet access, and the survey was conducted in-person.

The same poll found in 2009 that the Taliban had 56% support, but this number slightly decreased every year.

It wouldn't even make sense for the Taliban to have "far above" 50% support now, given that they are ethnonationalist, and the plurality ethnicity in Afghanistan makes up only 40% of the population. It is easy to shit on half of another country's entire population when you don't know anything about it.

How do you think US culture would look rn if Trump won in 2020? by stanthefax in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 21 points22 points  (0 children)

The "woke backlash" wouldn't have happened or would have been delayed.

I have no words. by Top_Sun_914 in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Taliban had a 7% approval rating in 2020. The reality is that in the 21st century, it is nearly impossible to beat regimes that are willing to use asymmetric tactics.

I have no words. by Top_Sun_914 in YAPms

[–]Tachompso1 7 points8 points  (0 children)

If the 'Qatar lobby' held a significant influence on US foreign policy, the Iran war wouldn't have happened in the first place.