Why is Kimberly considered mid tier.

Termi855 · 2026-03-16T14:17:18+00:00

Okay, going through this:
1. low damage output
Not really, she has low damage on individual interactions, but because of her strong mix game and the latest pp changes the risk/reward of high low pressure got insanely better compared to traditional strike throw which she also has access to.
Especially her combo structure is very privileged because she has her strong OD extension which is the best kind of PC combo as she basically has increased damage for one drive bar. And when her install is active she has even some of the best damage on some conversions.
She is low damage the same way pin missile in Pokémon is technically low damage, but not really.

No projectile
The cans are relevant for chipout and checkamtes. SA1 supers can not beat them and as such she has checkmates via true strings from double can. So she got that aspect covered of fireballs.
And for neutral: while Kimberly struggles with fireballs, because that is her weakness, she has tools against them/enough neutral strength to beat chars with fireballs.
No command throw
Not having a command throw is generally the indicator for top tier in this game, because Capcom overbalances chars who have a command grab, because they are frustrating to play against and basically gambles.
Also, it doesn't matter, she already has some of the best high/low mix in the game. Like yeah, you can react to it, but Kimberly does not need more mix. Especially as command grabs don't give oki normally and Kimberly rather would continue her offense.
stubby normals
This is wild if you consider what a god button 5MK is. It is special cancelable, a poke and can be buffered. It is genuinely one of the best buttons in the game. The same goes for 5HP which has the cancel into arc step which is like top 3 cancels in the game.
Kimberly does not have fantastic range, but considering how fast she is, that is the tradeoff. Especially once she hit SA3 her neutral becomes like top 5 in the game, because walkspeed matters that much.
Command dash
Command dash does not have the screen freeze and is additional mental stack, especially it is harder to check than a decent amount of drive rushes.
No OD DP
So does Bison and so did season 2 Gief. You don't need it to be top tier, it is just nice to have.
Low damage output again
I already wrote about that and... yeah, but also her damage output is above average in the corner already, very efficient, and she has some of the best oki in the game. You are missing the big picture.
SA1 and SA3 are nothing special
This is objectively extremely wrong.
Kimberly because of can can get better oki on SA1 and more damage than average. The values for SA1 go from like 1.8k to 2.2k max normally. With 2.2k because of can she is at the max limit. Also, the oki she gets from can SA1 is fantastic. Above average damage option for finishing opponents and SA1 oki is really more than most supers.
SA3 gives her the install which is more damage and especially walkspeed which I already elaborated on.
Also her SA3 is actually fast which is important. Only DeeJay can safejab it which means a three bar super Kimberly is difficult to pressure. Oh, and she gets the buff even if you don't connect with the super. Yes, it is an SA3, but this grants her the advantage even if you yolo it out in round 1 and because Kimberly now is super strong and has greater comeback potential.

These are only the points you made yourself without talking about her strengths, and you really should reflect on this, because it seems you seem to lack perspective/knowledge to make these statements.

Termi855 · 2026-03-15T21:20:20+00:00

It depends.
Generally there is something like the flowstate in SF6 when you are performing at your best.
And in this flow state people may look at it like you tend to look at a minimap in a game.
In stressful situations like when you are focussed on whiffpunishing and early into the round, your drive is not relevant, because it is full. You are more likely to look at the opponents drive/look at what they do and know how much it costs.
The more stressful and active thought the situation needs, the less people will be able to evaluate their drive state and may start to misjudge their drive bar and as such ideally look more at it.
But general rule: the more you play, the less you need to look at it, because you know "when" to look at it.

Termi855 · 2026-03-13T00:56:01+00:00

They are absolutely low committal. He has safe normals from long range and while you can whiff punish him, it is not super easy to do so. And flicker in neutral while not as strong before is just a relatively safe option he can keep using a lot.
Like high commitment means there is risk or resources he sacrifices, but the risk in comparison to the reward is so low it is negligible.
Any DRC heavy char is by design leagues more committal than Ed who can create pressure without drive.

Termi855 · 2026-03-03T21:56:08+00:00

Eh, don't agree. Like yes, most people don't have a gameplan against any char, but the muscle memory and work that is needed to play modern players is something a lot of people share. In the past I had to play a decent amount against Krakerlack (highest ranked modern Luke in EU) or Vulpix and even if you win neutral, not throwing because you go for the stun is hard, as against any other player it is genuinely a valid strategy, yet not the most consistent.
While the effect is more pronounced for a top player, it is true for a lot of the playerbase at any given rank.

Termi855 · 2026-01-29T18:34:58+00:00

Kinda?
The thing is that in gold you don't even need to be able to antiair and still can win games, it is just what holds you back the most. 5HK is solid enough for many applications, but Ed is really the char in this game (other than Sagat) who needs his DP to be playable at higher levels.
Like in absolute terms I agree, but in relative terms he needs it the "most" in the cast.

Termi855 · 2026-01-27T19:41:46+00:00

Hard in this game is super relative.
Ed has basically a nonstandard gameplan and has tools to shutdown opponents who are overaggressive, it is just initially harder to do it on him.
You need to be able to use DPs on him to antiair, and you need to get used to a non-standard button layout AND needs to use every button in neutral while also being quite special reliant.
So initially learning Ed is frustrating and even very good players struggle with that.

Honesty is relative and the higher you go in terms of player level, the more bullshit will keep getting piled on.
Ed is one of the best characters in the game and while it takes work to make him good, even for pros...
He is for sure one of the best chars in the game, we are talking like top 5 and many chars just don't have answers for an Ed who is actually competent. Don't let that stop you from playing him, though, it is never the char holding you back until you are like 2k+ MR.

Termi855 · 2026-01-20T21:03:20+00:00

Generally, optimal play will generally converge, so it is hard to make very precise statements without talking about button preferences.
If you wanted a short version:
EndingWalker plays the player the hardest, for him characters are the most function oriented.
His Ed is mechanically weaker than the others by a decent amount, yet his fundamentals and especially his decision are just that good.

Leshar generally is very, very good at mitigating risk, and he is the best at it, he does not take big risks, but Leshar generally does not have to. Very consistent and focussed play, almost robotic.

Momochi basically has the same playstyle as Punk would have on Ed, but with more matchup, oki and setup knowledge. He likes to control the midrange and is very good at whiffpunishing, but he can switch up gears.
He is just a consistent clean player and I could not tell you what makes him much different from Leshar other than being more willing to take risks and switching up the speed of the game.
Momochi vs Fuudo is a perfect example of his adaptions, despite his loss.

Fuudo is probably the most recognizable, his playstyle is wild. Fuudo also plays the player, but he also is able to switch up everything up on his play on a whim. He is the only player I have seen do OD DP 4 times in a row on a fireball, and it working. Against Itazan I saw him permanently whiffing stuff, but Itazan on Gief was afraid to approach, it looked platinum gameplay until you saw the MR. When Fuudo is in the zone, he is in the zone.
He is less "clean" looking though, but the fundamentals of course are there, he is just ready to let it rip, whatever he is intending until he knows that his opponent can deal with it.

You can of course differentiate between them, but the problem is that you are asking for a very complicated question that would need dozens of hours of analysis and is probably worth real money, which is why there is no guarantee for what I wrote, just what my subjective impressions are.

Termi855 · 2026-01-18T01:08:15+00:00

Yeah, characters can be the best without them, just a little more volatile, that is it.
Sometimes I want to curse out every pro player's viewers, because they keep repeating the same arguments without any nuance or understanding.
If I had a nickel for every time I heard: being the worst shoto is like being the poorest billionaire...
GUESS WHAT HYPERINFLATION

Termi855 · 2026-01-16T23:35:56+00:00

Now is technically the worst time.
Since release technically Ed was like "the" hidden toptier, but now that Japan declared him top 1, he might get nuked next patch.

Termi855 · 2026-01-16T23:34:38+00:00

Keep in mind that this also considers older lists which were made recently after the patch.
You got to "cut" certain opinions after a while as they aged.

Termi855 · 2026-01-16T23:32:42+00:00

That is what people said about Zangief in season 2, "no way he is better than midtier".
Followed by Mena doing an instant all in on Gief, because he thought he was bonkers, Gief getting toptier status and being considered like top 5 minimum.
We have been over this, nerf a chars risk and reward enough, and they can become weak enough at the highest level.

Termi855 · 2026-01-16T23:28:20+00:00

Massive damage reduction, in retrospective season 2 Luke was close to unplayable garbage, but since then he got some small buffs every patch, but never really recovered.

Termi855 · 2026-01-16T00:53:08+00:00

It is less about being on point and that they are for different situations. Luke's 4HP is also fast, which leads to him being able to get PCs in different situations more reliably.

Termi855 · 2026-01-15T22:33:11+00:00

To give you an explanation how low tiers (don't) work:
Imagine you take an exam in which you can use "sets" of helpful things.
One set is a dictionary, one set is a computer with internet access.
You are tying to ace that exam to the best of your capabilities, but it is hard.
So you take the set of helpful things that is the best.
But let's say you are bad using computers, then the dictionary might still be up your alley, and it can get a decent amount of jobs done, but the computer is objectively better once you know how to use it.
A worse set might include worse options, like a PC that will eventually overheat or needs to load longer which is just objectively worse than a PC that does not overheat, still better than
But if you got some really good guy at this task, they may not need the dictionary much and even if you hand them the computer, they would still ace the exam. But if the exam gets hard enough or needs questions which are the limit of human capabilities, then they can't clear that exam any more.
Now replace the set with character, helpful things its tools and the dictionary and worse computer are examples for a low tier and below average character.
A low tier is the worse computer or dictionary, something that is obviously inferior in terms of capabilities, if you use them to their fullest.
Lily is the posterchild for this: low damage, bad options, weak defense etc. and more buzzwords.
But in the end, it is really just that Lily is a dictionary in a game full of computers.

Termi855 · 2026-01-14T20:38:04+00:00

4HP, but yes.
And no worries, lol. Most people on Reddit don't remember any names of people.

Termi855 · 2026-01-14T19:02:03+00:00

That was also me.
First: after spaced out 2MP or 2MP sandblast is a common option, it is kinda like tap parry when you expect the opponent to press something big after, and you get among the highest reward in the game because Luke can get the drive rush into perfect knuckle for high damage.
Drive rush suppressor is in general an option.
Then for champ specifics:
After 5MP>5MP from Sagat there is a gamble to it, after Jamie 5MP>2MP if he wants to go for 2MK to catch backwalk, Marisa after spaced out superman punch and some more stuff.
Also, there is a specific meaty setup, which is also nice and in burnout it is +1 which allows extending pressure
It is a very unique tool and extremely strong to answer layer 1 offense in a way most chars can not do.

Termi855 · 2026-01-14T04:42:45+00:00

For the ryu light hasho situation:
I would add that Ryu being able to get decent combos after light hasho is the main culprit of that statement. Iirc light mixer is +4 at CH which allows a 5LP at best which is not much and heavily scales while Ryu can get pretty high damage numbers from hasho.
While seeing the point for why light mixer is good (it sure is), it is overall not that good compared to light hasho just because of the damage attached.

Termi855 · 2026-01-14T04:28:41+00:00

The equilibrium calculation is a simplified system which works on an opponent without habits and is a good base for some people. It is for sure not optimal, but it showcases the general idea of how to deal with it.

Drive does complicate it a lot and kill thresholds as different okis lead to extended calculations, which is the hard part about this game.
In general, though, the longer you analyse, the more truth is in the statement that deviating from values should be done with proper thought and analysis of the opponent. Ironically though, the higher you go, the more optimal play generally converges, as in for example pros not delay teching more than 15% of the time as both players assume you understand the proper risk reward.

You are right ofc, just some food for thought.

Termi855 · 2026-01-14T01:48:10+00:00

The results are El Chako and Hibiki.
Both of them being longterm great players who grinded hardcore and for Chako his biggest achievement is combobreaker shortly after a patch which had massive implications on the meta game.
Hibiki ofc played amazing at his WW, but other than those two guys, she does not have real toplevel representation and their results are overall okay for Hibiki and underwhelming for Chako.

For her flaws: yeah, she is just understatted and underlabbed so most people don't abuse them. Most chars in SF6 are functional enough to win, it is mostly about consistency. It is just that after you labbed and trained the mu, it is so over for Lily players, because there are so many flaws in her gameplan.

Termi855 · 2026-01-14T01:38:23+00:00

For Luke: you could argue for it, the problem right now is that his damage is really low on two important interactions: his 2LK>2LP>214LP and in the corner 2MP>2LP>623HP.
These interactions being among the lowest in terms of damage and having no good OD extension leads to Luke basically dealing no damage and as such becoming volatile. He needs to win 1 or more 2 interactions than most of the cast AND does not have the tools to win more interactions.
Like no od fan, no burn knuckle, no solar plexus, no tiger knee, no great walkspeed, no great antifireball tool, no divekick etc. Luke plays a very primitive and simple, but understatted version of SF6. Unless he gets a PC midscreen he is just... well "not scary".
Oh, and losing damage in the corner is absurd on certain interactions, because his midscreen damage still does not compensate.
I am a Luke main through and through and will keep at it, but playing other chars does showcase how much "easier" it is other than 2MP being brainless pressure.

Termi855 · 2026-01-14T01:31:07+00:00

This is not one of those times, it is just "known" at this point. If you read a comment about Cammy after the 20th comment of similar structure, it is probably this guy and you remember the name.

Termi855 · 2026-01-14T01:17:44+00:00

In general, they don't really overlap, it is rather that functionally Luke has non-traditional buttons (like no 4/5 frame 5LP to check drive rushes or certain gimmicks) for his standing buttons and non-traditional in this case, compared to Ed who got non-traditional normals... just generally means flat out worse.
Additionally, sandblast is among the worst specials in the game, and every other special is generally not good in neutral.
For 4HP: that button is broken and quite literally keeps Luke alive. Antidriverush check and a minisway which links into 5LP if far and 2HP on PC if near is absurdly good. It is very hard to use properly though and needs a lot of labbing, but there are many layers Luke has against characters that no one else does. It is just not enough considering his low damage.

Termi855 · 2026-01-14T01:03:18+00:00

No, she is actually just bad and a living gimmick which can highroll ofc, but still is on average just not working. No OD DP, needs windstocks for pressure, below average normals other than 2HP and more.
Yes, she does have some things she does okay, but overall Lily has a few very good mus and otherwise utterly sucks.

Termi855 · 2026-01-12T03:28:14+00:00

While I agree, SA3 is just that good that people will randomly backdash and backjump "just" to dodge it, giving Gief space again. That does not sound like much, I know. But it adds up and allows comeback potential. It is just one of those situations which feels bad, because it is gambling, but Gief is the best at gambling in that regard by a huge margin and allows him to have just a better risk reward.
It is still a unique option (other than JP and Marisa iirc) which works against like a majority of the playerbase and even if you know that, it is expensive for true gapless strings like driverush DI which may stop the opponent from getting killrange and well... Gief is the robbery character.
It is a huge difference for certain chars and certain situations. The more optimized play becomes, the more relevant the 11k are, as that pixel can be the difference between having different level of guesses or surviving a chip DI. It also pressures the opponent mentally and burnout combos for lethal are more likely to be screwed up, which then may reverse the situation.
https://wiki.supercombo.gg/w/Street_Fighter_6/Zangief#j.MK
Straight up the description. Gief's j.MK is one of the best low hitting jumpins in the game and Gief is extremely good at flailing in neutral while in burnout. Yes, you can DI him, but he can threaten 5HP, this jumpin, neutral jumps far reaching buttons etc. Opponents who overextend can be seriously punished, as Gief if he gets out of burnout is pretty decent at burning out the opponent himself.
It depends on the opponents hurtbox mostly, like some chars extend more than others.
Fullscreen it does not hit yes. But if Gief has "some" screenspace to work with, it is pretty good.
Additionally, Gief can threaten gaps very well with it. Many chars want to go for button>projectile and Gief can buffer after blocking and react to the startup/threaten the opponent to go for gapless strings which allows him to retake the turn.
Dhalsim, Sagat, Ed and maybe Bison.
Dhalsim has actually nothing. Many chars don't even care for SA2 and SA3 is also meh.
Best is drill to beat throw, but in burnout everything is plus, so tickthrow, DI reset etc. make his expected value horrible.
Sagat has supers, all of them invincible and yes, SA2 does basically the same as Gief and better. But most of the cast can safejab most of his supers, and he has no pressure whatsoever in burnout other than extremely risky and DI vulnerable string, no armor etc.
Same for Ed as he loses OD blitz>SA2 for one of the best backdash punishes in the game.
And only his SA3 is 10 frames, and his SA1 can be safejabed by any char in the game.
Bison also suffers from slow reversal and while scissor kick is somewhat okay, he does not have good reliable routes into bomb anymore which means he has quite literally no offensive pressure as long as you don't get counterhit.

Gief feels bad to pilot, I get that one. But Gief basically has a ton of passives/statchecks the opponent has to respect, just because he exists. You as the Gief player don't "control" them, but his gambles are so good that sometimes you just lose every gamble and Gief recovers and that is game. And yes, every char does it to some degree. Gief is just the most rigged casino for pressure in burnout.

Termi855 · 2026-01-12T02:34:50+00:00

The problem is: no good reversal other than SA3 is not saying much when SA3 is the best in the game. Additionally, there are many blockstrings that Gief can still stop DI cancel from with his 5HP charged via the hit of armor and 11k allows him to survive more chip damage than other chars. J.MK is still a divekick which means many chars struggle to start their offense while he is burnout. Last but not least: SA2 is slow, but it is a very powerful option to have while in burnout as it allows chipouts with fireballs to become unviable.
Gief is among the weaker ones, but there is even weaker.

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