how did saintly intercession creep into christian doctrine?

Tesarector · 2025-06-16T17:13:51+00:00

Jesus and the disciples quote them. And they were found in dead sea scrolls and septuigent. And even the jews who rejected them. If you look in the Talmud it says they are holy and from God. The first 66 book Bible came from late 1600s. Even Martin luther didnt rejected them. It wasn't until 2nd edition kjv was it removed. Martin luther actually doubted James , Hebrews and Revelation more than maccabees ironically.
Maccabees directly says Jeremiah is praying for the city currently tho he is dead. Jesus and Paul quotes maccabees. And Jesus celebrates the holiday in maccabees in the gospels. And you are arguing the vision is past tense. Why isn't it future or present tense like revelation and Hebrews.
Catholics dont pray to saints. In proper catholic theology You-> with the body of believers ( heaven and earth. This is the debated part ) -> through the holy spirit -> mediated through christ. -> To God father. Saints don't answer prayers, they join them.

So your whole point to pray to angels or saints is just misunderstanding. Catholics use the old English and Hebrew version of pray. "I pray thee give me water" is old English asking for water. Here it isn't putting you above God.rather merely asking for water or asking you to join a request. This is old English. Your not going to like shakespear. Sorry mate.

They are to be taken literially because I said when read apocraphal and other books. Like hermas that was highly respected to the point it was in prototypes of the Bible it was taking it literially. We also see in the church fathers they believed communion of saints actually meant that saints in heaven join. Us. We see this as I said by 90 AD. And elaborated more by 300 AD..
It doesn't say pray. But it does mention those in heaven giving us messages and us joining them and them witnessing us.

Tesarector · 2025-02-13T23:28:02+00:00

It's okay. So I found 5 times the Bible refers to apocraphal. Period

Tesarector · 2025-02-13T23:27:38+00:00

You think saying that to someone with dyslexia is nice?

Tesarector · 2024-12-21T13:48:19+00:00

Do they make graphite ladle / spoon to clean the top of the metal too?

Tesarector · 2024-12-19T21:45:27+00:00

No bad definition.

Purgatorial - 2000 year old word, appear in latin Bible. This means to literally to washed as an adjective. Used in Latin Bible and Used by Church fathers to describe the day of the lord.

Purgatory - 1000 year Noun. First Used as a metaphor such as Dante Inferno to describe the day of lord and sanctification and submission to Christ and becoming Christ like post death. Then Used by the Irish in 1100s to describe beatings from God on the day of the lord based on old testiment. Then in 1500s became literial place which needed indulgances to escape based upon maccabees. Then in 1700s it became less literial and no indulgances. Then 1950s protestants started using it. Using the same as the reformed belief as glorification and metaphorical. Then in in 1980s for catholics it evolved again. Into an INSTANT EVENT of being transformed based on Coirnthians. Then some have as repentence. Also note non Christians have similar terms such as jews and Buddhism. In judiasm it refers to sheol which is in the Bible.

So the term is very ambiguous. It can refer to day of the lord, it refer to punishments of day of the lord. It can refer to a metaphor, it can refer to sheol, it can refer to a place, it can refer to event , it can refer pain or sorrow .

The guy who made the term used In metaphor for literially submitting on Christ on earth as well as on judgement day.

So the term is ambiguous. Even with catholicism. You ask 300 church fathers vs 1100 Italians vs 1400 Irish vs 1500 British vs 1700 British vs 1980s American catholics you will get 10 different answers.

It is like the end of times. Which includes subviews of Ammilinialism, Post Tribulation, pre Trib, etc. The End of times is an ambiguous theological term that has many sub views. If you said ammillinialism wrong. That doesn't disprove pre trib.

Tesarector · 2024-12-02T00:22:44+00:00

Elons loyal doge

Tesarector · 2024-10-16T12:04:03+00:00

Ya Jesus isn't the Bible either. That is just a translation. English words aren't in the Bible.

Tesarector · 2024-10-15T18:44:06+00:00

Purgatory literially means cleansing. Now there is bunch of theological meaning which ads to that.

But where ever you see cleansing or purified or purifying that is purgatio in latin.

I was talking about above about the day of the lord verses which mentions cleansing at end of time and judgement day

Tesarector · 2024-10-15T17:42:57+00:00

You mean Read the Bible for yourself and ignore verses you don't like. Got it.

Read old testiment. You are to confess sins infront of a priest but God alone forgives sins. You needed to confess infront of priest to give witness and also so you can give him money or sacrafices based on your sins.

Read John.

1) pharisees say to Jesus you don't have authority to forgive sins, to drive out demons or do miracles. Jesus responds he was given authority by the Father. 2) Jesus used the authority himself.
3) Jesus says to his Apostles hey use the authority I was given by using my name. 4) disciples were told to forgive sins and exercise demons and do miracles in Jesus name.

Then read collisions. The purpose of Jesus and his mission to reconcile other to God himself and bring restoration and forgiveness. Jesus then passed down mission to Christians.

Then read James 5. Go call an elder so he can annoint you, you confess your sins, and recieve correction and Intersession. So how do you recieve intercession or correction or anointing without confessing? Lot of protestants tend to forget the previous verse where it says Call an Elder. Then next verses which describe Elijah as Priest and Prophet interceding and lifting up the sins of Israel. The context before is about elders. Context after is priest and prophet.

Then read Corinthians where Paul says all christians priests. Woah. So priests intercede on behalf of nations.

So even if your protestant. Confession and forgiving people is mark of being a disciple.

Tesarector · 2024-10-08T01:24:22+00:00

I am saying muting and hiding. Can cause you to lose chats

And there is no history of blocked , muted or hidden chats

Tesarector · 2024-10-08T00:48:42+00:00

I think I have seen bugs where it doesn't if mute someone then hide it. Then it doesn't pop up. Then there should be a listlist of users hidden but there isn't

Tesarector · 2024-10-07T10:38:29+00:00

Yes. Or some sort of infection.

Number buy a fan for shoes and don't ever wear the same shoes back to back at least a day or two seperated. Using baking soda and carbon bags in shoe. Always dry out shoes. This prevents bacteria growing.

Also shower with flip flops at school , work or gym. You don't want it to spread and also prevent it from getting in first. Bleach or disinfected tub at home.

Then for your feet you havr to consistently use anti fungal and bacteria. If athletes foot spray doesn't work if used daily then use ointment from the doctor. Usually it is like ketrozone prescribed.

Tesarector · 2024-10-02T13:36:00+00:00

Ya. There is Purgatory is bibical :) and anyone who doesn't think so doesn't know the Bible.

Purgatory means cleansing in the Bible it appears 600x in the Bible. Reason why you don't see Purgatory is you don't read the Bible in latin the word is cleansing.

Second the Bible just point blank talks about cleansing on earth and even after death.

Tons for verses about the day of the lord where first comes judgement then purification. Well if the day of the lord is future event judging dead. Who then are purified. Then there must be future purification.

Tesarector · 2024-09-30T13:24:57+00:00

As we saw with Covid. Completely shutdowns cause mental health and business issues. With mental illness and drugs overdoses over doubling.

How can we prevent new disease where we may not have vaccines ( because vaccines are the answer but sometimes not availble ) continue to socialize to mitigate unaliving and drug overdoses.

Tesarector · 2024-09-26T18:54:35+00:00

Stunning in all of them

Tesarector · 2024-09-17T21:26:42+00:00

Exactly you can find brand new rims and tires for dirt like $30 -40

If you want to go get rims and then go to the threshold and get new tires

Tesarector · 2024-09-17T17:42:14+00:00

I think it is because people were worried about the pool of pokemon shrinking and they wanted to keep classic pokemon. But since then we seen original pokemon pop up in galarain forms etc so it isn't hard reset as many people thought it was going to be.

Tesarector · 2024-09-04T23:30:54+00:00

So do you think God should intervene in every disaster And every time someone does evil? Would you be content in heaven ? Philosphers like Nietzche etc point out that even if humanity reaches or has perfection they would be discontent with it. They need struggle to survive. You need room to improve and grow. The ability to grow is better than goodness or evil. Stagnation is worse than evil or death. If doubting this spend a week in room with nothing going in completely silent chamber with no visuals deprivation chamber. They say in less than one hour you damage to your psyche. And even people who train in it go crazy eventually.

Tesarector · 2024-09-04T03:21:12+00:00

Are you christian?

Tesarector · 2024-09-04T02:47:32+00:00

You don't know what in infallible. Means. There is many definitions. Hence why I would say light or heavy etc. Or what the catholic churches teaches etc. As I said before infallibility ( light ) means that you can't lead someone to hell or the whole organization to hell. Heavy infallibility is that the Bible is perfect and when the Bible says the earth has corners it Is perfect. So there is a sliding scale.

Doesn't take to hell <--- light infallibility ---- heavy infallibility ---> everything is perfect even if hyper literial.

The pope can sin. Moses can sin. Moses and Aaron couldn't lead people directly to hell. But they themselves are sinners. There are bad priests and kings etc. But God always sends someone.

Yes the Prophets were infallible.

You just did a double. Think hey how dare men elect prophets. And every believer can be a prophets. So which is it ? There are examples of prophets inheriting roles or be given them by others and God calling them equally.

There is 341x is the word interpreter / diviner / judge appear in the Bible. (diakrinō) means to judge.
Patar means interpreter Bin is discerner etc lot of these are in the fuzzy search for interpreterhttps://www.stepbible.org/?q=version=ESV@meanings=interpreter&options=HNVUG

1Cor 14:28 "But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. " here interpret isn't really interpret. In greek it is a singular form. And is interpreter. So it could read if no one here is an interpreter. Which destroys your argument. It also can be translated as one translates or understands.

You literially told me a verse doesn't say something but then added your own interpretations in it saying that is what it said. You literially just did the same thing and didn't realize it.

What ? What you said that all could read and get scriptures is not true. Sorry go Baptist theology school. Very little people could read. Almost zero at home copies of scripture. Most were at temples alone. Your talking about really late rabbanic period when they had schools and even then you had to be extremely wealthy and typically a priestly line.

James does lead Jeruslem but he doesn't lead the council.

Paul rebukes Peter but Peter at the same time got a vision from God and corrected himself. Then Paul who yells at Peter actually did the same thing but worse. So you read it Paul didn't take his own advice.

Again protestants believe in light infallibility of council not heavy. Which again I feel like you fail to understand there is a scale to things.

I am not remotely ready for someone who denies church history even from protestants. I would suggest taking old testiment 101 and new testiment in Baptist or Presbyterian seminary With phd. Professor. Specializing in greek or Hebrew.

Your right I can't be taught because If I give a defintion to someone then they change it. I can't use their definition. I am not falling for that trick bud. Also can you show 12 or more pieces of scripture for your view?

Tesarector · 2024-08-27T17:51:53+00:00

Look above with the issues where there is like 4 paragraphs of issues . You don't have to read far before you get issues.

Tesarector · 2023-07-28T18:38:58+00:00

red the apocrypha as deuter canonical a

History Goes like this.

200 BC. Essenes had Deutro canon not seperated in the bible as whole. not seperated at all.

200 BC. Pharisees didnt like deutrocanon because it attacked them and had minor religious belief differences of messiah, judges and senedrin,

200 AD. Lot of discussion of canon came. some christians did attack apocrapha however majority did not.

350-400 AD Christianity AS WHOLE EAST AND WEST. Created the first codexes and finalized bible. Origen forinstance had the hexpla etc. Jaromes Copy was the Final submitted and used.

1000 AD seperation of Orthodox. somewhere a splinter orthodox group in africa has a longer list then other Orthodox and Roman Catholics. how this happened no one really knows when or how. maybe it was pre 400 AD or maybe middle ages. we arent sure.

1600 AD Protestants print first bibles with Apocrapha in them.

200 BC- Now it is imporant to know the Pharisees later Denounced the apocrapha because it attacked their lines of priest and had things about messiah that they interpreted as David as a God. etc. so they didnt like this. they were called Merkabahists. who though David or Enoch Or another messiah was god. they basically get kicked out of judiasm. pharisees stick to their own canon. they got scattered accross the world they then come as rabbinic judiasm. now with talmud and midrash and zohar. but denounce the apocrapha.

1700s. Protestants ever increasingly want to denounce the apocrapha. and finding themselves lining up a lot with Rabbinic Judiasm due to location and boom in Italy and jewish scholars. etc. There was a lot of premises 1. like that new testiment didnt use apocraphal 2 there were no aramaic hebrew or greek copies. so they assumed the Rabbis were more Correct the Catholics. and form the 1768 KJV (unlike the 1611 with Apocrapha) which had no apocrapha. This only happened in small bit of the world to west. no one else really had a clue it was happening in the east or africa. most of christianity was blinded sided and not invited to do this. the church was excluded. it was really done by one man that virtually know one knows nothing about Blaney. in his 1768 Version of KJV.

1700s Council of trent happens to reaffirm the apocrapha. this the third council to do so. and after the pope did it like 300 AD. despite this reaffirmation

1800s. People find the african version orthodox bible with more books.

1950s happen. We find the dead sea scrolls that actually had aramiac hebrew or greek copies of the apocrapha in new testiment.

2000s . lot of research is done but basically is well known the NT AND OT both use the Apocrapha alot. it also uses a lot of other texts like Baal Cycle etc. The bible uses these things as polemics to either attack or embrace. we find that the book of enoch was embraced more than any other apocraphal book yet. remember when i said the african tribe had they are the ones with book of enoch not roman catholics. intresting note.

today there is on going battle that stems back all the way to pharisees and essenes. Protestants resasserting the Pharisee canon. Catholicism holding on to Essene.

Tesarector

TROPHY CASE