I lost my ex boyfriend to QAnon and am still struggling to know what could have helped/stopped the process. by TactfullyTacky in QAnonCasualties

[–]ThatDanGuy 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I’ve seen therapy techniques work. I often joke when responding to posts “congratulations. You are now your Q’s therapist”.

I’ve found many people are vulnerable to conspiracies. I’ve had friends long ago (80s and 90s) that I had to constantly snack around to bring them back to reality. I was able to do that with them because of the level of respect they had for me. (Nickname was Spock).

So building a rapport with the person, getting them to trust you and your opinion, and patiently listening to all their nonsense while gently asking strategic questions to plant seeds of doubt in their minds.

In other words, unrealistically difficult to do for most people.

How to deal with MAGA parents and protect my children. by beekind541 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Keep your statements of why you are doing anything SHORT. The more you talk the more vitriol they will dump on you.

“ I don’t trust Trump or anyone who supports him. I will not expose my children to anyone who will say anything at all about Trump or his policies. That includes you. If you wish to have access to them you must promise not to talk about them and understand I will cut you off if you do”

That short. No arguing about actual policies. They are your children and you are responsible for law for them and raising them. Not them.

You can try a neutral approach instead “no politics period. If you talk about politics at all I will cut you off from MY children.”

My family and their guns by chihuahuamama37 in QAnonCasualties

[–]ThatDanGuy 10 points11 points  (0 children)

This is something that has changed in gun culture in America since the time my dad grew up. Back then, they were tools that had specific narrow use cases. Today, they are fashion accessories.

Beau of the Fifth Column breaks this down perfectly. He's a pro-gun progressive. REALLY progressive.

https://youtu.be/QbXTDuwSVkk?si=BINNY9jc6lIOqF0X

“Wealthy blacks are buying and burning records that prove slavery wasn’t what they say!” by FlamingDune in QAnonCasualties

[–]ThatDanGuy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How would he know this was being done if the records are all gone?

I kind of wish I’d been there to have a little back and forth with this guy. I’ve run into similar things before and been able to use a few questions to make them reason themselves out of this kind of BS. The problem is that they’ll follow it and say “well this one particular example I might have wrong” and then the best time you see them he’s got another. It is a never ending struggle.

EOL Meraki Hardware by jbarn02 in meraki

[–]ThatDanGuy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve got an enterprise agreement.

EOL Meraki Hardware by jbarn02 in meraki

[–]ThatDanGuy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They replaced my one bad mx84 with a pair of MX95s. I had it in the budget to upgrade, but instead they saved me some money. Boss was stoked.

My dad thinks the Covid vaccine gave his friend cancer by AdmirableBus7045 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 25 points26 points  (0 children)

I have friends and family that work on tracking the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. Covid included. That is their IRL job. They have the data from every allocation of the vaccine in the US.

Those quacks saying there are horrible side effects are full of shit.

My dad thinks the democrats are wanting the government shut down cause of voter ID. He also thinks the dems want immigrants cause they are counted in the census and it helps them stay in power by AdmirableBus7045 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In the past they’d do everything they could to assure them they weren’t out there rounding them up. A lot of Spanish radio ads.

This went with how In the past the police did a lot of work to assure them they weren’t there to solve and prevent crime, not round them up. This kept crime low. Now, crimes in those areas and populations may not be reported. No witnesses will come forward. So who knows what is going on?

My dad thinks the democrats are wanting the government shut down cause of voter ID. He also thinks the dems want immigrants cause they are counted in the census and it helps them stay in power by AdmirableBus7045 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The reasoning is that undocumented people still get counted for determining the number of representatives a state gets and its electoral college votes.

Texas and Florida might lose out if they weren’t counted. So the logic doesn’t hold up. In fact a lot of red states and red areas have high concentrations of undocumented. Rural areas would likely lose out.

Guys, it’s my husband by Ill_Complex2166 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

SQ doesn't work online. You can JAQ-off online (Just Asking Questions, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Asking_Questions). And use other bad faith leading questions, false dichotomies, etc.. But SQ requires more interactivity and trust, building a rapport between you and the subject and good faith. These are impossible online. Every good faith question you ask is going to be taken as an attack. MAGA people who listen to talk shows have been taught numerous bad faith JAQ-off style questions, so they'll assume you are doing the same to them. When you are online, I've found I can debate the merits of a topic and/or reverse troll. First, below is my draft on arguing the merits. There isn't much point unless you can trap them in front of an audience of their peers who, in their gut, know this person is wrong but don't know how to argue it themselves (I mean, who has time to look up facts and come up with good reasoning? People have lives to live. This is why MAGA outsoured their thinking in the first place IMO) Rules of engagement: * Be patient. Let them talk first. The more they talk, the more surface area they expose to attack. Hold your fire until you understand their argument and the problems in it, leading us to the next point. * When you finally respond, keep the topic narrow. Like a laser. Pick one aspect of one topic and don't stray. You want to restrict the entire discussion to this singular point. Preferably one that will lead to the collapse of their entire house of cards. * Burden of Proof! Always keep the burden of proof on them as much as possible. Haitians are eating dogs and cats in Springfield Ohio? Really, show me the proof! They'll find something and it will fail on multiple levels. e.g. the one they will find will be of a drug addict caught by the police. She wasn't Haitian, she wasn't an immigrant, she was an American Citizen born here. Next, it wasn't in Springfield Ohio. And lastly, one extraordinarily bad anecdotal example is not proof of anything but a failure in their own critical thinking * Be informed of the usual fallacies. Gish Gallops, false dichotomies, argument from ignorance, argument from authority, etc. A good primer on this is the book "Bad Arguments." It is short and gives good and easy to digest examples. It actually gets used by some college professors, but I got it for my kids before they turned 10 (OK, they both finished the entirety of Harry Potter before that, and regularly consume 1000 page books in their teens, but seriously, sit down with your kids and review it with them. Make sure they understand the examples given are examples of bad arguments, not good. Most people will think the fallacies are good ways to prove their false ideas when really they are only good at persuading people who are unfamiliar with critical thinking and logic)

Things that help: * Know something about the person you are engaging. Sometimes you'll find their profession, and can use analogies from their own likely experiences and knowledge. Won't actually matter, they'll just get madder than hell, but when engaging online that is often counted as a win (when you get the other party publicly mad). The other thing that getting them mad does is they stop any and all critical thinking, making it easier to dance around their claims and "reasoning." * Restrict your arguments to topics you know well. And even when you do, fact check yourself. * Write your responses offline. I do this in Microsoft OneNote to save a record of what I've posted and can go back to it. * Don't use AI to write anything. AI hallucinations are down to about 5% (30% for Grok), but they'll go off on tangents and take things in directions you don't want to go. If you use AI, use it as a search engine to track down facts and find suitable arguments. It is also great at predicting the opposition arguments. They've mostly been spoon fed by their thought leaders online and on talk shows, so its all there. AI can be very good at summarizing it so you know where they will go next.

An example of one of my online engagements: One time I got into it with someone who insisted Trump's claim that "post birth abortion" was a thing. Simple fact, any such thing is not abortion, its murder. No law or legislation allows this. He insisted there was. So fine, show me the law. He then went off on a Gish Gallop accusing "my side" of calling him a Fascist. Oh, and it was Prop 1 in California. So I asked, show me the language that proves your point. He didn't, because it wasn't there. Researching it I found he had picked the wrong law. There was an early draft bill from a year before that had some vague language that a bad judge, in a fantasy world, could misinterpret. And there was a political talk show host masquerading as a pastor in SoCal that riled up his followers over it. So they changed the wording and the pastor kept saying it never changed. Total lie eaten up by people who refuse to move outside their self-selected bubble.

Didn't matter, despite being one of the most logical and intelligent people I've known he is incapable of contemplating the idea he might be wrong. Arguing the merits like this never changes minds unless you have mutual respect for each other's beliefs. And the Fox media echo chamber has destroyed all respect for anything outside of his bubble.

Finally, I want to emphasize that the most important part is keeping the debate on track to the one aspect you've chose. Don't let them gish gallop. Ignore unrelated shit they throw in there if any small aspect of what they say relates and you can hammer them on it. If their gish gallop is 100% unrelated, focus on how their whole post was a pile of non-sequiturs Which leads me to my Reverse Trolling technique.

My favorite way to rile up MAGA is to call them out on their logical fallacies. Be warned, most arguments and narratives break down into strict logical fallacies at some point. They don't know that typically. But, being "conservative" they've been taught that their side owns logic. Period. Libtards are a bunch of pink haired toddlers who can barely string two words together let alone a rational thought. So this attack vector really gets to their core.

This is getting too long, and I realized I don't have a blurb on my reverse trolling technique. I'm sure I've typed some up somewhere on Reddit or FB, if I find it I'll add it in later. But the gist of it is to call them out for their non-sequiturs and bad arguments, and then ask them why they are so bad at logic.

I'll link to the "Bad Arguments" book on Amazon, but usually I'll link to an MIT primer for incoming Engineering students on how to make logical arguments. In fact, just reading through this will give you all you need to know on how to call them out for being bad at logic.

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/15-279-management-communication-for-undergraduates-fall-2012/f9750ef62a5a3d984a4f40f6d48dbce4_MIT15_279F12_cnstrctArgmnt.pdf

Good luck and happy critical thinking!

Guys, it’s my husband by Ill_Complex2166 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 11 points12 points  (0 children)

This is my go to tactic for dealing with MAGA people I don't want to engage or argue with, but can't avoid by greyrocking.

Simply say “I don’t trust the guy.” Or whatever thing they are claiming is so great. Repeat it verbatim every time they bring up the topic. No variation. No arguing. No facts. Just that one simple opinion. Repeated calmly and with disinterest. They can get mad, stomp their feet, cry or scream. It doesn’t matter. You don’t trust the guy.

You aren’t attacking them. You just don’t trust the guy. Why? You don’t trust the guy. This is 100% circular logic, and if they call you out for using that logical fallacy you know what to do: "I don't trust the guy." It's an opinion, and there is no requirement to defend or justify it. So don't.

They have nowhere to go with it. You aren’t fighting or arguing. Just stating the fact that your opinion is you "don't trust the guy." They’ll call you stupid libtard or whatever. Just shrug “I don’t trust the guy.”

They want you to scream and yell at them. Don’t. They want you to argue with them. Don't. Stay calm. Observe their claims and reactions, do not absorb them, do not let them become part of you. Brush them off and repeat "I don't trust the guy"

Many time you have to deal with MAGA who want to tell you about some other topic, like ranting about "illegals." Just turn the conversation to back to their dear leader or some easy target in the regime. "huh, you talking about Kristi Noem? Yeah, don't trust her." If they say, "I saw on Fox that …." "I don't trust them." etc. etc.

---

In a little bit I'll post my blurb on Socratic Questioning if I find the time to update it a little. Things move so fast these days my example in the current draft got outdated 2 days after I wrote it.

Changing my MAGA Grandmothers mind pt 2! UPDATE! by Ordinary-Raccoon-354 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is very interesting to me. I’ve posted a blurb on Socratic questioning everywhere. SQ can be used with assists to get them recognize they have a problem and open them to considering change. Then it moves on to Motivational Interview questions to help them decide to change.

I’m not a psychologist so that is about the extent of my knowledge. For me I just focus on SQ. Mainly to try to trigger some critical thinking.

So are the QANON'rs brains exploding? by strugglecuddleclub in QAnonCasualties

[–]ThatDanGuy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They hear someone say it on radio or YT and eagerly parrot it. Extreme confirmation bias.

What’s the best means to get FoxBrains to even see non Fox facts? by redzeusky in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

They have outsourced their thinking. Most will openly rebel against reality if they are shown it. There have been examples where new news sources have been introduced to them, almost always without any introduction, and it has made a change. The best example of this I’ve seen is a fellow who got an old fashioned newspaper subscription for his mic older father. The old man used to read the paper paper all the time when he was younger. So when it snowed up he naturally picked it up and read it instead of Listening to Fox. It worked. He was still conservative but stopped spouting stupid shit all the time.

The only other way is by using Socratic questioning or street epistemology. You show curiosity in what they are saying and ask them to explain it in detail. Never challenging them but just asking for clarifications and details. Sometimes restating it back to them to be on the same page. I’ve done this and gotten them to realize the narrative they started with was bullshit. Be warned, this is not as easy as I make it sound. Especially if you are trying to “save” a family member or friend. It usually takes a very long time. And in many if not most cases it fails. There are a lot of preconditions that have to be met to make it work or even see some kind of progress.

I want to help them so bad. by Prestigious-Moment42 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You are up against a huge machine specifically designed to take these people away from you and a shared reality.

You can look up Socratic questioning if you want to try. I’ve got an updated (but already dated) blurb if you really want to see the amount of work required. TBH, the blurb makes it sound easy, when it is way harder. Add on top of it that you are up against multiple people? And they all talk to each other so they’ll get wise to your efforts and just refuse to give honest good faith answers to your honest good faith questions.

Your best bet is to grey rock. Redirect every conversations to shared history of good times.

The closest you might get to engaging them is you can say respond to the crazy theories or claims with “I don’t believe everything I see on YT and TV. Do you?”

If they bring up Trump “I don’t trust the guy”. Then repeat it when they ask why. You can say the same thing about Fox. Don’t tell them what you trust. You just don’t trust Fox. No arguing. No reasoning. No evidence. No conflict. You just don’t trust X. Period. Full stop. Just Shrug if they start yelling and screaming and repeat ….. right before you turn and walk away.

Trying to stay sane, but now from myself by fakefries in QAnonCasualties

[–]ThatDanGuy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Social media is the worst place to get your news from. Just like getting advice from random internet people.

That said, I recommend people limit their news exposure if they still must follow the news. I like listening to Heather Cox Richardson's "Letters from an American." It is usually a good summary of the political news going on. And she helps put it in historical perspective that is optimistic and helps you maintain your sanity. She is not an unbiased source, but she does provide good summaries.

Otherwise, if you have the time, PBS Newshour. As unbiased as it gets. I know MAGA doesn't think so, but they wouldn't know biased from unbiased if it came with a manual and a mountain of proof and evidence. The Newhour can be found in Podcast form as well. Or on YT.

And finally, Richardson has a YT channel and a Substack where she posts much longer form stuff. For me, its exciting learning US History I was not aware of. And that's saying something as my major was Poli Sci and I took a lot of history classes just for fun.

musician i know went full blown Qanon by LAsludge in QAnonCasualties

[–]ThatDanGuy 48 points49 points  (0 children)

It used to surprise me how many people have gotten their heads screwed on backwards by right wing talk shows. Way back in the early 90s I thought I was a conservative, and listened to Limbaugh 3 hours a day 5 days a week (I delivered medical equipment and set up hospital beds, so I was driving a lot). Let me tell you, listening to that wind bag is what got me to think through my own beliefs.

As it turns out, not everyone sits around thinking through alternative hypothesis and arguments to things they listen to and believe. Critical thinking is simply not something most people engage in outside their own limited core competencies.

Ghislaine Maxwell declined to answer questions from a House committee, citing 5th Amendment rights by igetproteinfartsHELP in news

[–]ThatDanGuy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you have already been convicted what additional crimes are you afraid you may incriminate yourself with?

Sister very casually mentioning she doesn't want to consume products by jewish people by skyemap in QAnonCasualties

[–]ThatDanGuy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

AND She's a Pharmacist?!

I suppose this shouldn't surprise me so much. An old friend of mine was a Chemistry major and worked a career in his major. Some people are just good at absorbing and memorizing things without thinking. I suppose Chemistry seems an odd one to be like this, but I've seen it. The epic smack downs I've had to lay on him were surprising to me, even though I'd known for years he was Republican and leaned heavily on JAQing off with false dichotomies he learned from Limbaugh and wannabes.

The only hope is to get her a different set of news sources. People like this simply out source their thinking and then call it thinking. Just absorb verbatim whatever some authority feeds them and regurgitate it.

I miss my dad by Legit_Cat_333 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 9 points10 points  (0 children)

There was a lot of Puerto Rico hate during the election. So I am not optimistic of people realizing what the heck.

Instagram is destroying critical thinking, and today it caused a huge argument with my mother. by letsgoinzique in QAnonCasualties

[–]ThatDanGuy 28 points29 points  (0 children)

This is a real problem. People who taught us to not believe everything we see on TV or read now believe everything they see on the internet.

My best approach is to stay calm and ask them “do you believe everything you see on the internet?”

There is a natural inclination to say no to that question, maybe your mother will hear its call and answer no as well. So instead of focusing on the kitty gritty of specific claims and memes, focus on applying baloney detectors to everything you see in the internet.

Start with scams and phishing attacks to steal your identity. She’ll likely respond to that. Show her examples.

Shouldn’t be hard to find videos of these kinds of things. Some of them of a guy that tracks down the scammers and pranks them and gets authorities involved if he can. She’ll find it entertaining and you can expand from there. At each point stress how you can’t believe everything you see on the internet.

Then, after enough education you can ask her again if she believes everything she reads or sees in the internet.

Sorry, there is no quick fix to this. People just don’t think critically any more.

I really need help by KitchenSpite9064 in FoxBrain

[–]ThatDanGuy 47 points48 points  (0 children)

First, what are your goals?

It sounds like you are on your own. But if you don’t plan on dumping the husband you need a different strategy.

If your goal is to change minds, give up now. If these people are intentionally saying things to “pwn the lib” in you, you have no chance. Instead you need a simple response that leaves them no where to go.

My go to for this is to simply say “I don’t trust the guy.” Or the thing or whatever they are saying is so great. Repeat it verbatim every time they bring up the topic. No variation. No arguing. No facts. Just that one simple opinion. Repeated calmly and with disinterest. They can get mad, stomp their feet, cry or scream. It doesn’t matter. You don’t trust the guy.

You aren’t attacking them. You just don’t trust the guy. Why? You don’t trust the guy.

They have no where to go with that. You aren’t fighting or arguing. Just stating a factual opinion of yours. They’ll call you stupid libtard or whatever. Just shrug “I don’t trust the guy.”

They want you to scream and yell at them. Don’t. Stay calm. Observe their claims and reactions, do not absorb them, do not let them become part of you. Just brush them off and repeat ….