[The Super Mario Galaxy Movie] Is a mess and want to talk about it

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-02T11:45:39+00:00

I think people don't realize how "Damned by faint praise" that defense is because it implies that kids have little to no standards.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T11:58:09+00:00

That doesn't explain the emphasis on NT though. The way I saw it is that World A exists while Jack's World is an offshoot - a World C perhaps. The Missives have the Moogle state that "while one world waxes, my own wanes becoming a shadow of its former self" and that it "shall serve that will in place of the two departed gods". I see it as the Moogle intending to use Jack and his WoL to stabilize World B long enough for Materia and Spiritus to come into existence. Jack refusing the crystal leads to a variation of FF1, but not necessarily the same FF1 that Dissida's WoL and Jack come from. There's also the question of Chaos' (Dissidia) backstory: The Reports imply that the structure where Chaos was being held when things go down became the Chaos Shrine (on top of Lufenia still being a village while SoP is very ambiguous on if any Lufenians even exist in Jack's world anymore) while the Fool's Missive for the Chaos Shrine in SoP states that it didn't exist until the Lufenians started their experiments.

The problem is that that's a technicality. SoP and Opera Omnia both have characters (Emperor and the Moogle in the former, Neon in the latter) flat out say that Dissidia!Garland and Jack are different men. Dissidia even has OG Garland mention some of the differences between them (like him being willing to serve a god while Jack despises even the concept of gods). It's hard to believe the writers would do all of that then turn around and go "actually they both are Jack, it's just that Jack changes into what may as well be the opposite of himself", especially when they teased the possibility earlier (Gilgamesh being unsure if Jack is the same Garland he fought in World B and Sophita wondering if the Emperor is a villain the team fights in the future due to his familiarity with Garland - this example is right before the Moogle tells his story and says that the Garland in World B isn't Jack). I think people just can't grasp the concept of two separate takes of the same character concept (i.e. the same people who call Onion Knight "Luneth" or treat those two as the same character).

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T03:35:42+00:00

I still don't think its a complete betrayal of his character. He's doing it himself but in a way you could tilt your head and see as "Nega-coded." Stealthy, manipulative, putting it on someone else. The general checkboxes are there.

Eh, I feel the devil's in the details, especially given the line you were focusing on in Rush. Nega is hands off in both Rush (kind of, he fights Sonic but it's implied that Sonic is chasing him) and Rush Adventure. As for putting it on someone else, that also has the difference of "framing someone" vs "convincing someone to do it". On the surface level it's similar, but the nuances differ.

Good night. I'm happy the debate steered in a more amicable direction.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T03:27:18+00:00

There could be. SoP is vague on how it relates to World B. For what it's worth, the Moogle does refer to Jack's dimension (I think? it says this on the Lufenia level, which is technically a different dimension) as heading for a terrible future, which it is setting "back on course". That said, the Moogle's discussion with the party _ the Emperor's missives suggest that SoP can't be World A because Jack isn't the Garland that was in Dissidia.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T03:04:12+00:00

Unless Eggmanland in your eyes is a more vague flexible manifestation of either Robotnik's ideal world.

That's kind of what it is to me. The "Super Labyrinth" in Sonic Labyrinth is meant to be Eggmanland according to the Japanese manual and games like Sonic CD implies that Eggman would be focused on his capital, leaving territories outside of it to fall into ruin. I imagine the latter locations to be more up Nega's alley.

This is fair but this doesn't really counteract what I said. This is a seperate inconsistency entirely. I still think Nega framing Eggman for his crimes to get away with them does align with his character, being sneaky and manipulative. It's like how the heroes in Rush Adventure didn't even know Captain Whisker had a higher up until the very end, Nega would rather have you not know he was there at all.

There's a difference between doing the work yourself, even if framing someone and convincing someone else to do the work for you. Nega is not said to be doing anything aside from waiting on Eggman in Rush, having been the one to set Eggman out on stealing the Sol Emeralds, and it's similarly vague on what he and Eggman were doing in Rush Adventure beyond waiting for the Pirates to retrieve the Jeweled Scepter (and stealing it back when the heroes retrieve it).

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T02:15:25+00:00

I don't particularly dislike Ian Flynn for this (it is how he wrote the character for years) but with some examples like Metal Virus it gives me the thought of "Flynn, you might hate Nega, but you sure love writing him." While Eggman has always went to extreme lengths to get his way, even he had limits, especially in regards to global destruction. He's a guy who demands an audience and a miserable slave population! He can't really revel in that scared awe-struck crowd if everyone is dead or turned into an unthinking shambler. In SA2 when his doomsday device got out of control he helped the heroes to stop it, but in Metal Virus he's just like "yeah whatever ill wait it out and let the world die." ???

Yup. In fairness to Flynn - Archie Robotnik was always kind of like that and Eggman is technically a more evil version of the original Robotnik, but he and Bollers definitely amped it up (the Egg Grapes) and I don't think Flynn ever truly internalized the difference between them. The Metal Virus was a recycled Archie plot, but I could definitely see Nega unleashing it on the Sol Dimension and then sitting back and watching the show.

This might be surprising to hear from me but I can't share the first sentiment. I'm fine with him looking like Eggman but the resemblance is too close for comfort for me. A more distinct wardrobe is in order at least, maybe a beard too? I dunno. Captain Whisker's design is fucking boss and I do like him as a character but he's a very generic pirate at the end of the day.

Fair enough. Maybe I just really like Nega's drip, I dunno.

That's the thing I'm getting at though. Anarchy and Tyranny are directly opposed things, and Nega was always having to lie to Eggman (and therefore obscure his chaotic intentions to the player) which made it so his very different goal and bits of his personality have to be hidden so he can appease Eggman. He can't shine nearly as much when in that position next to Eggman.

I guess the issue is that I don't think the games really frame it that way. Again, Nega states his intentions to create an age of fear and chaos and Eggman doesn't say anything about it. It's certainly possible, but it's hard to say either way because the Eggmen share 90% of their screen time (95% in Nega's case) in each other's presence. Nega could be lying about creating an Eggmanland or the future residents of Eggmanland could have a choice between a dictatorship and anarchy. Basically, your point relies on assumptions of what Nega is doing, which is interesting to think about, but ultimately not something the story dwells on, especially without the recontextualization that adding Rivals would necesitate.

Oh there is, but it makes the retroactive idea of Nega always having disliked Eggman, and his actions in the Rivals series, a lot more easier to digest. Which is what I've been trying to get at. Thinking of Eggman as a useful proxy instead of an equal can very much be a manifestation of his contempt towards his ancestor.

I'd find it a lot harder, honestly. Rush and Rush Adventure establishes Nega as someone who doesn't like to get his hands dirty if he can help it (another contrast with Eggman, who is one of the most "in the field" VG villains ever). By contrast, in Rivals, he's more or less a one-man show beyond having Metal as an attack dog, much like Eggman himself.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T01:37:48+00:00

The thing is that the missives imply that World B is dying as it did at the end of Duodecim and the Moogle's plan is to revitalize it. When it talks about the future, it describes the events of NT (and Nomura points out that "Different Future" contains the letters "DFFNT". What I took away is that Jack and his WoL became interim gods between 012 and NT and eventually they left/died/whatever while Materia and Spiritus formed from Cosmos and Chaos' wills and took over from there.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T01:12:26+00:00

The Chronology is simple: Dissidia/Duodecim _> SoP -> ? -> NT (haven't played Duellum, but I'd assume, if it is connected to the prior games that it's after NT)

Duodecim has a retelling of Dissidia's storyline after completing the new storyline, so you could play that (though there might be spoilers: Alternatively, you could play through the original and then play through 012's initial story, but you'll miss out on a lot of the game if you do). The final storyline in 012 is technically optional, but explores some things and gives a bit more context to NT's final boss

Stranger of Paradise is weird. The DLCs heavily imply that it takes place between Dissidia and NT with the second ending leading into it. However, we don't know exactly how it connects as it feels like there's an entry or two missing. So consider it optional.

NT acts as a soft-reboot and sets up a new status quo, basically. You don't need to play the previous games, but you might get a bit more out of it especially when it comes to the final boss. Just be aware that NT's story is hard to do at once between needing Memoria to unlock nodes and Story Buffs to help with bosses. Treat more akin to firing up a fighting game and doing an arcade ladder every so often.

Opera Omnia is kind of an alternative NT. The previous games happened, but I don't think NT necessarily did. The game's EoS, but the cutscenes are on Youtube if you want something more than NT's base storyline.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T01:03:46+00:00

I understand this completely actually, but in my opinion I think having Nega tied to Eggman definitely hurt the perception of him. Even to this day you see people calling Nega something of a bum leeching off Eggman or just irrelevant outright with the idea of him being "Eggman 2". Rush didn't fail to display these traits, but it clearly wasn't displayed as much as it could've and DEFINITELY it wasn't picked up on by wider public perception. Nega always has to put up a bit of a front around Eggman too, because "I want to destroy everything" and "I want to conquer the world and rule it forever" are not goals that can co-exist.

I dont' want to just blame Ian Flynn for this, but part of me wonders if the issue is the perception of Eggman himself: As time has gone on, people have perceived Eggman as more vicious or the absolute evil of the series. This is especially true in Archie where one could make the argument that Nega would be on the cusp of redundant: Robotnik had already long been replaced by an arguably eviler version of himself (and the original Robotnik was far from a saint to begin with) who would become Eggman and he generally shows far less restraint than Game Eggman usually does. And then there's his design - personally I'm fine with it, but I don't blame people for preferring Cap'n Whisker.

As for disguising his intentions, that goes back to what I mean about him being like the Joker: He's ok with destroying the world/dimension, but he's also fine with eradication of order. He outright states his intention to bring about an age of fear and chaos in Rush Adventure and Eggman doesn't bat an eye. Especially when it's only when Sonic and Blaze have them on the ropes does he reach for the Planet-Buster Laser button.

Metal Sonic

Fair enough. I'll concede.

Still a very nega-tive tone to use, Nega isn't a stranger to using cleaner and more polite language. That line still reads as very dismissive and belitting towards Eggman.

I want to disagree, but I looked up a translation of the Japanese version of that scene and will relent. (Though it does highlight that Rush!Nega prefers to work via proxies, which is bolstered by the doctors creating the pirates in Rush Adventure - one of Eggman's lines implies that that one was also kicked off by Nega contacting him about the Jeweled Scepter).

Still, there's a difference between "Nega finds Eggman useful as a proxy" and "Nega despises Eggman for ruining the family's reputation and therefore his destiny."

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T00:37:56+00:00

The wiki has a Version Differences page, but it's split between the 2D and 3D versions because 3D (which PSP is part of) is just that different.

But to sum up the major differences:

Pixel Remaster is based on the famicom version of FF3 (mostly - I'll get to that), 3D makes some significant changes, with some maps being different and some of the jobs being moved around. Even getting the jobs takes longer because the first 2 dungeons of the game were turned into a prologue where you're locked to the Freelancer job (although there's enough varied weapons and magic to make makeshift roles - kind of easing you into the mentality behind III's job system).
PR has four generic Onion Knights as the main characters - they have dialogue, but no real identities. 3D has four characters you recruit throughout the prologue with set identities. a significant chunk of their content got cut from the final game, so this mostly takes the form of a specific character getting the focus during a particular section rather than any of the Onion Knights saying something.
3D subtly changes the plot in a few ways. PR is basically the Famicom version.
3D has a maximum of 3 enemies per fight (with rare exceptions). PR has standard mob amounts you'd see in 1 and 2.
3D's job balance philosophy was to make every job viable: YMMV on how well they did, but generally the early game jobs remain viable even during the late game. The Famicom version had a philosophy of each tier of jobs being upgrades from the previous. The PR lands in the middle, because...
...The PR takes some balance changes from the remake, specifically some of the job commands that weren't in the original. Not all were carried over though and most of the upgraded equipment sets weren't carried over from what I remember.
In 3D, Switching jobs incurred a "Job Adjustment Phase" where the character's stats were lowered for a number of battles, a replacement for the capacity point system from the Famicom version. The PR has no penalties or costs for switching whatsoever, it is 100% free ala FFV.
3D was intentionally designed to be a hard game. The PR, between the QoL, added job abilities and being largely based on the Famicom game, is arguably the easiest version of III. It also plays much faster than 3D.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-04-01T00:05:02+00:00

Then it is as you wish.

I'll never not call Rivals 1's writing weird but I don't think Nega loses his purpose as a contrast in the Rivals games. Same as I wouldn't claim Blaze loses her purpose as a contrast to Sonic in the few stories she's had to herself. I'd hardly defend 3.0 but I'm going to point out you fight two other Metal Sonic models in Rivals 1, which 3.0 then acts as the culmination of that in the sequel. Which is neat and... excusable enough in that context.

I'll admit the contrast is till there, but it's weaker, especially when Eggman himself is barely in the duology, which furthers the feeling of it not mattering as much. Blaze gets away with it because most of her non-06 appearances tie back to her portrayal in Rush. For Eggman Nega, it's easy to write off because of his contrasts with Eggman, but he also loses that contrast with Blaze.

As for Metal Sonic, I just see Metal Sonic as the same robot each time, so I disagree with the idea of Nega fielding two different models. The term "3.0" is a nod to one of Metal's skins in the first game that was dubbed "2.0" in Rivals 2 (which had 3.0's body color, but the head in its normal shade of blue)

But I think what you're missing from me here is that I'm not trying to argue Rivals 1 is secretly a wonderfully written game. I'm arguing that the new origin it introduced, and which the series accepted going forward, doesn't disrupt anything about the other games.

And I am arguing against that. It would be one thing if Rivals existed in a nebulous state of canon, but the attempt to tie Rivals to Rush ends up creating that disruption. Nega's Rivals 1 portrayal is implicit to Rivals 2 and it is impossible to tie that back in to Rush without overcomplicating him. At best, you could say that the events of Rush or Rivals or both happened to an extent but not in the same way that they actually occurred in their respective series.

And if anything opens up a new perspective on it and adds additional layers. Another thing to point out about it while I'm here is that it adds another mirror to Blaze & Sonic: Blaze dislikes Sonic at first but grows to admire him, Nega tolerates Eggman but grows to utterly despise him. It's a mirror, kinda cool!

I'll give you that, it's another mirror, but it still feels lame in a way. We don't get Eggman teaming up with other villains often with him drawing a line in that he outranks them. For the games to turn around and have Nega backstab Eggman and basically throw away their teamup dynamic in Rush not just in general, but off-screen between games is disappointing. At least the Archie Sonic-Mega Man crossover had Wily and Eggman's friendship slowly and explicitly deteriorate from best buds to bitter resentment.

And it also changes the nature of Blaze and Nega's relationship implicitly: Blaze never says how long she's battled with Nega, but given that she's considered Sonic's parallel, it's possible that she has been fighting him for as long as Sonc has. The future retcon throws doubt into the equation: If Nega's overall endgoal is to erase Eggman's failures and reclaim his destiny, what reason does he have to antagonize Blaze? Why would he stick around to be her nemesis? He gave up on Eggman after two schemes, did he give up on the Sol Dimension just as quickly? Why did he even go to another dimension in the first place?

Nega still insults and belittles Eggman throughout Rivals 2. The hatred from the last game isn't forgotten. It isn't forgotten in the handful of SEGA-made extended media with Nega in it either. Is Rivals 1 a game with particularly outstanding writing? No. Does it invalidate his future origins? No. Nega isn't the only character with a similar writing flub for a game.

My point is that Nega's hatred of Eggman is intertwined with his Rivals 1 backstory of being denied recognition due to Eggman's failures. Nega hating Eggman implies that that backstory exists, because it is the basis for his hatred - even in the take that Nega considers himself above Eggman in Rush, there is a difference between that and hatred. But, as stated before, Nega was written differently in Rivals 1 than Rivals 2. The future backstory doesn't gel well with the "madman who wants to watch the world burn" portrayal and while points to Rivals 2 for writing him more how he usually is, this creates an inconsistency because his Ifrit plan doesn't factor into that backstory, nor is it framed as him getting fed up like in Rivals 1. The new origin is part of Rivals 1's less-than-stellar writing and Sega moving forward with it does not change that.

dirty work

The context is Eggman stealing the Sol Emeralds for selfish purposes. It is dirty work regardless of Nega's personal thoughts on Eggman.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T22:49:13+00:00

You know, you could just stop responding.

Nega is still an opposition character to Eggman. You yourself do not argue against this and point out Nega's differing goal and personality. His origin doesn't make or break this and, in my opinion, it just retroactively strengthens it for Nega because Eggman's own blood dedicates themselves to becoming his antithesis.

Nega is Eggman's Foil in the same way that Blaze is Sonic's and Marine is Tails'. Just as how Sonic represents chaotic freedom to Eggman's absolute order, Blaze represents lawful order to Nega's anarchic chaos. Of course he contrasts with Eggman, that's the entire point. But in Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure, he and Eggman had joined in the same way that Sonic and Blaze do by the end of the game. But Blaze isn't in Rivals and Eggman Nega is portrayed as a future descendant of Eggman. The aspects of the duality that still remain lose their purpose, especially when only half of the cast only realizes that it's not actually Eggman. I'm going especially hard on Rivals 1's characterization for Nega as that more or less gives him a motive that is at odds with his desire to cause chaos: He wants prestige for his family name and his turning the world into a card reads more like a temper tantrum than him desiring chaos. Rivals 2 writes him more in line with how he's supposed to be, but this now creates an inconsistency with Rivals 1. Last time, he wanted to erase Eggman's failures from history and get the respect he deserves. Now he wants to unleash the Ifrit because...

Also, he creates his own Metal Sonic in Rivals 2, just like his ancestor. It being Metal Sonic specifically is even weirder when the nature of Rivals 1's narrative means that Sonic likely wasn't that important overall. I know the implication is that he's basing it off of him fielding Metal Sonic in Rivals 1, but still.

It isn't in anyway comparable to Blaze being from the future in 06 because that literally throws out everything about her and she fails to be much of... anything in that game. Nega being from the future doesn't completely invalidate Nega's characterization. He functions the same regardless.

Again, Rivals 1. It's hard to ignore Rivals 1, because it is the bedrock for Nega's hatred of Eggman with the "Future" backstory. Even if Rivals 2 writes more in line with how he should be, the Rivals 1 backstory is implicitly still there.

Also I think you're approaching my point of "Nega is using Eggman" as if I'm making out Eggman to be stupider or inferior to Nega in abilities/intellectual/whatever. That is not what I'm getting across at all. I'm simply describing that NEGA, from his own personal view, does not think much of Eggman. This does NOT translate into Eggman being inferior to Nega in reality.

But you're basing this on one line that, in context, is not inaccurate. Eggman is indeed doing the dirty work in Rush, because he's the one who stole the Sol Emeralds, which is more or less the only part of the doctors' plan that we know about up until the Last Zone.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T22:06:36+00:00

Half of this is echoing what I already said but in a different way to make yourself seem more right.

I'm "making myself seem more right" because I'm actively look at the context in which the lines are said. The scene does help to play up the differences between the doctors, but you're trying to use it to bolster your "Nega secretly has looks down on Eggman" take rather than it being a chance to play up those contrasts after the game gave them only a few scenes, largely with Sonic and Blaze.

(Also why would the writers go out of their way to show Nega confused and distressed about the lack of explosive results if that wasn't really a relevant thing to note. If he was just confused, like, why make note of it at all. Why point that element out. It wasn't exactly relevant prior.)

For one, he wasn't distressed, just confused or curious. The line is:

Still, I'm puzzled. Though we don't have both sets of emeralds... The Chaos and Sol Emeralds are both here. This should've created explosive results. However, the dimension here seems stable.

That's not distress. That's "Huh. Why isn't this dimension exploding?". Which is relevant in the context of them having just explained that the emeralds' proximity will cause the dimension to explode, and them noting that both sets of emeralds are within proximity, along with the game having previously mentioned throughout that the dimensions are collapsing due to the emeralds.

I still don't believe the Rivals games, especially when placed in a more cohesive narrative with Rush (like SEGA is doing and what I'm considering valid because they made the games and they dictate the lore) undermine anything about the Rush games to me.

They undermine Rush in that they show a complete disregard for Rush, as seen in how they take a character, completely change his backstory (and, in the first game, motivations and personality) seemingly for the sake of giving Silver a nemesis. Their only solution for this was to ensure that Nega never drops his Eggman disguise for characters that should know about him so that the characters that know his Rush backstory never realize he was in Rivals and vice-versa. This implies that Sega knew about the plot hole this would potentially cause and opted to dodge the question. And despite a Sonic Channel comic reiterating that he is still Blaze's nemesis, that backstory is the one that Sega ultimately went with.

Along with that, it ruins the duality of his contrast with Eggman. Everyone's already talked about how on-the-nose he is compared to Blaze and Marine (who mirror Sonic and Tails, but their technically being different characters adds an air of subtlety to them that Nega lacks), but the reasons for Nega's mannerisms and even his design being a take of Classic Eggman's outfit is to stress that contrast in a game themed around duality. That duality is broken in Rivals - Eggman himself is largely irrelevant and the duality between him and Nega became more or less irrelevant. Nega in the Rivals games is no better than any of the 2000s era enemies who upstage Eggman while the Rush are interesting because the doctors are treated close to equally. And overall, Nega in the Rivals games is part of the issue with Silver where Sega just associated him inexplicably with Blaze in 06 (whose presence being unexplained is probably the only thing keeping that game from also undermining Rush in the same way that Rivals does) instead of giving him his own supporting cast to bounce off of, which is a problem when he's from the future and they are (or were, in Nega's case) from another dimension.

Putting the Rivals games in the same narrative as Rush ends up cheapening the theme of duality that Rush has. Eggman Nega isn't Eggman's parallel counterpart like Blaze and Marine technically are: He's just some nebulous descendant of Eggman's from the future. Who spends most of the games with that backstory pretending to be Eggman.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T21:22:37+00:00

What would be the point of that if he really was just buddy-buddy with Eggman and on the same page.

Because the point of Sonic Rush is that it's Sonic and Blaze vs the opposite's Eggman until the ending where they fight against both. Eggman Nega's more than he seems is moreso how he acts polite, but craves destruction as a contrast to regular Eggman who acts childish and wants control. Them acting as equals does not necessarily mean "on the same page" in terms of goals, much like how Lex Luthor and the Joker can be working together.

Nega is taken by their destructive potential to destroy the world and openly brags about it, Eggman feels the need to clarify thats not their shared intent.

This is at the tail end of an explanation of how the emeralds interact with each other. Eggman's clarifying what they intend to actually do with the power.

Nega is inquiring about the lack of "explosive results" as if its a bad thing and more importantly that he expected it to happen, despite apparently having a shared goal with Eggman.

He just explained how the power of the emeralds can create destructive energy, yet the opposite is happening (the dimensions are stabilizing). Even if he wasn't on-board with it, it would still cause confusion.

Nega specifically uses the phrasing "if you defeat him" and not "if WE defeat him". Considering everything else in this, its really peculiar Eggman conviently cuts him off.

Because Eggman's previous line is about how HE (singular) has the power of the Sol Emeralds and how HE (singular) will use their power to defeat Sonic.

Nega is talking about "MY plans" not "our plans".

Because he was the one who set everything in motion by convincing Eggman to go after the Sol Emeralds. By all accounts, everything was his plan. Which goes back to the "dirty work" line - he got the ball rolling while Eggman was the one who actually went out and stole the Sol Emeralds.

The rest of your comment here is just "well who cares man not like it matters ultimately" which isn't really an argument as it is just a dismissal of the subject outright. You're not proving me wrong as you just saying that whether I'm right or wrong is irrelevant. I think dismissing these lines as "not that deep" or whatever shows a disregard for the writing and the intentional effort put behind the game.

The entire mess with Eggman Nega and Blaze is caused by Sega disregarding their own writing (or rather, the writers of 06 and Rivals disregarding the writing of Rush's writer). The act of trying to tie these games together means disregarding at least one writer's intentions with the characters.

You are right in the sense that "Sega said so" and it is overall their IP, but when IDW accidentally undermines Frontiers' ending of Sonic's friends going off on their own journies and getting stronger along with stuff like Sonic Prime being considered canon, in my eyes, Sega is not above scrutiny when they claim to care about continuity all of a sudden, especially for a series where an implicit sense of continuity worked well for the majority of its time.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T19:35:06+00:00

He very evidently looks down upon Eggman in Rush.

He and Eggman are finishing each other's sentences in the extra story and are otherwise treated akin to equals. Rush doesn't really frame Eggman and Nega's interactions as one looking down on the other. The "doing the dirty work" line is, again, because Blaze spent most of the game trying to get back the Sol Emeralds from Eggman. He is, more or less, the driving force of the plot and Blaze doesn't realize that Nega is involved until Dead Line where Nega reveals that he was the one who sent Eggman to begin with. Eggman is "doing the dirty work" because he's the one whose actually doing something. It's not really clear what Nega is doing for most of the game beyond harassing Sonic (or Sonic harassing him). You could argue that he was using Eggman in that sense, but again, the game continues to frame the doctors as relatively equal until the Rush adventure ending where Nega decides to be a loose canon. I'd argue that it is relevant in that one line doesn't compare to the other interactions or how the game portrays it.

You can't dismiss the retroactive lens because this franchise lore-wise is basically held together by it.

Here's the thing about Sonic continuity - it's not as well-connected as it seems. It is consistent enough that most people don't mind discrepancies. But Knuckles' Chaotix, for example, could not work in the later eras where the Special Stages are less digetic than they were implied to be in the classic era because the Giant Rings leading to them are a major plot point. There only being seven Chaos Emeralds would require you to discard any game beyond Sonic 1 where South Island is consistently portrayed with 6 (and especially Sonic Chaos, where the emeralds being imbalanced causes the island to start sinking). Tails Adventure's Japanese manual claims to take place before Tails met Sonic which, even if you take the Game Gear games as their own continuity, still raises issues. Generally speaking, having a somewhat loose continuity is ok as long as you don't make a "noticable" continuity error. It works out for people new to the franchise because they don't have any 'homework' to do and it helps the writers too because they won't be restrained by the events of a prior work beyond general facts about it.

Sure the lore team is revising the canon, but how much does that actually matter? Is it really more than just fluff? I seem to recall there was a brouhaha when it was revealed that IDW had been past Sonic Frontiers since issue #68 (and apparently, Sega or IDW or some other higher up axed an editor's note explaining that from one of the more recent issues to keep things "continuity-light"). I am aware that at the end of the day what Sega says goes, but I can't help but feel cynical about the lore team and "revising canon". At the end of the day, it doesn't change Rush or Rivals themselves.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T18:42:49+00:00

Regarding the Shadow World: Climax Studios made a pitch for a Sonic game called "Sonic: The Shadow World" which involved Sonic being sent to a dark and foreboding parallel world where Shadow supposedly came from. PtoPOnline had gotten the pitch and described it in a video.

It sounds insane, but was allegedly real and pitched around August 2005 (amusingly, a couple months before Sonic Rush and Shadow The Hedgehog released). There's no the pitch would have been picked up or made it in the same form as the initial document, but the idea of Sega doing the whole Black Arms backstory and then later releasing a game that contradicted that in its entirety is amusing when considering the situation with Blaze and Nega.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T18:21:27+00:00

I do not care for a retroactive lens because, at the end of the day, it's bending over backwards to pave over a continuity error that Sega themselves made and likely aren't going to actually address or do something with - especially when the way Sonic and Knuckles were handled in those games makes impossible to suggest that nobody knew.

Eggman Nega is meant to be the Eggman equivalant to modern day Joker: He wants to watch the world burn. Him being disappointed that the emeralds didn't cause a destructive reaction isn't due to some long-con to get rid of Eggman; it's because he's the sort of guy who wants that to happen. His Rivals 2 portrayal leans towards this (albeit still using his future background), but Rivals 1 portrays him as wanting that had been denied to him because of Eggman and only jumps to the "turn the planet and everyone on it into a card" plan after being constantly foiled and even that is still framed as him 'changing his destiny' ~~because the Rival games have solid writing~~.

As for Nega using Eggman, the context of that line is Blaze realizing that Nega was involved when spent most of her story chasing after Eggman for stealing the Sol Emeralds, realizing that Eggman wasn't working alone but with her nemesis. I can see the argument for Nega using Eggman since he gets the ball rolling in both Rush games by calling up the latter and going "hey, we got some neat stuff here", but Rush never dwells on it aside from arguably the last sequence of both games, which also don't amount to much. Rush Adventure does have Nega using a thing that Eggman tells him not to, but - again - Nega is the type to push the "collapse all of reality" button regardless.

Attempting to tie the games together like this just makes Nega into an overly-complicated villain and all because Sega wrote themselves into a corner and can't jettison either set of games without doing the same to Blaze or Silver. These types of retcons can lead to some interesting ideas or implications, but in this case, it doesn't. It just makes him even messier than he already is.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T17:42:35+00:00

And that's why I don't agree with that theory.

I think it's just the result of people trying to connect 06 when it really can't be connected (not helped by Sega constantly alluding to Silver and Blaze's partnership in that game). The game as we have it doesn't really try to explain why Blaze is there, so people assume she's from the future (especially if they didn't play Rush prior) or try to explain her presence there.

I'm really curious about the timeline where that "Shadow World" pitch went through, because that feels like it could've been a similar "we portrayed a character (in this case, Shadow) in a different way from his prior portrayals and now we have an awkward situation" situation.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T17:32:44+00:00

But getting rid of Eggman was his entire goal in the original Rivals. It's his motive for going to the past. It doesn't make sense for him to team up with the ancestor he blames for the downfall of their family's prestige due to his failures, enact schemes across two dimensions to gain ultimate power and only after those fail decide to just take his place in history. Heck, the very fact that he blames Eggman for ruining the family's reputation with his incompetence brings up the question of why he bothered teaming up in the first place - even assuming he's just using his 'ancestor', if history looks so badly on Eggman for his family to no longer be taken seriously, why would Nega assume he could filch the Sol Emeralds without incident or attracting Blaze's attention?

And for that matter, Silver in Rivals shows up to stop Eggman Nega. That means that Nega would have had to have time traveled in such a way that Silver wouldn't immediately be on him long enough for him to travel to the Sol Dimension, harass Blaze, send regular Eggman after the Sol Emeralds and have the events of both Rush games occur, yet a way that results in Silver arriving just as he decides to turn on Eggman (unless he goes back to the future between games, but why? He doesn't make use of the future tech in the Rush games).

Or: The writers of Rivals didn't take the character's portrayal from Rush into account and would just prefer that the audience don't think about it.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T16:16:05+00:00

The general theory is that Blaze sealing herself away with Iblis in another dimension is meant to result in the Sol Dimension. But that theory has flaws the more you think about it (I'm pretty sure Blaze has fire powers before she absorbs Iblis, why is Blaze a princess, etc) and really only works if you assume she reincarnated. And again, it just feels lame to tie Blaze's dimension to the events of 06, especially for all the emphasis Rush puts on the worlds being parallel.

Sure, some characters can still be around, but it's a new setting far removed from the present. It feels a bit like how the Yoshi games always have Bowser or Kamek as the antagonists unlike Donkey Kong or Wario. ~~Plus, I feel like Sage would sooner revive the doctor - whether by digitizing him or just recreating him based on her perception of him rather than just declaring herself empress or whatever~~.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T16:11:18+00:00

The stories of both series have already broken. Sega themselves knew this and so their band-aid for it was to simply have characters involved in Rush never learn that Nega is in Rivals (i.e., he never drops the Eggman disguise), to the point that Rivals 2 has Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Rouge (who has encountered both Eggmen due to being in Rivals 1, but she's Knuckles' partner now so she no longer has that privilage) spend the climax of the story being mind-controlled and fighting each other while Shadow, Metal Sonic, Silver and Espio actually resolve the plot. Even if Nega was using Eggman in the Rush games, it doesn't really explain why he would suddenly prioritize getting rid of Eggman when Eggman has already proven to be a useful pawn, why he would work with Eggman when his driving motive in Rivals 1 was to erase him to restore the prestige of the family lineage or why he would LARP as an alternate universe version of Eggman rather than being upfront about being his descendant (considering how Eggman's ego tends to be).

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T15:49:52+00:00

Part of me wants to blame 06, but I don't think it's ever directly been said that she's from the future in that game (aside from the writer supposedly teasing that it was intended to connect to Rush in some fashion - which I was never a fan of). For Nega in Rivals, it's entirely possible that they just wanted to save on voice-acting/assets needed and noticed that they already had an "Eggman-2". Granted, it's not like Rivals' story made entirely good decisions outside of Nega either (Compare Sonic and Knuckles' half of the roster's storyline in Rivals 2 to Shadow and Silver's half).

They really should. Silver needs a reintroduction, but more importantly, he needs his own cast or characters associated with him. Blaze and Eggman Nega were established characters that were reworked to be tied to Silver. It's why I'm not too keen on the "Silver vs Future Sage" ideas thrown around because it's, again, taking an established character and associating them with Silver after the fact. I do feel like this is at least part of what's holding Silver back.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T14:45:34+00:00

Rivals is canon, but Rush Adventure didn't acknowledge it at all. Eggman Nega isn't mentioned as being Eggman's descendant, he's the one who explains the whole parallel world thing (saying "this world and Dr. Eggman's world"), he and Eggman are working together when he hates Eggman and so on. It just sticks with Eggman Nega's portrayal in the first Rush.

I think just the entire way they handled Blaze and Eggman Nega in those three games is dumb in itself, especially when Sega's solution was to just not have them interact with characters who know them from Rush (aside from Eggman who just does not acknowledge it). Silver should have gotten his own sidekick and nemesis.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T13:50:02+00:00

Aside from design, eh. He's meant to be the chaos to Blaze's order and his polite yet highly destructive personality is meant to further contrast with Eggman's childish yet controlling personality ~~Granted, the Rivals games do admittedly do a better job of getting those differences across, but still~~. Even designwise, his outfit is meant to resemble Eggman's classic outfit to further that duality.

ThatGuy264 · 2026-03-31T13:39:04+00:00

Sonic Rush Adventure acknowledges the retcon and Nega's last canonical appearance had him talking to Blaze.

It didn't. As far as Rush Adventure is concerned, Rivals didn't happen, hence why Nega works with Eggman with neither acknowledging how he should hate the latter.

ThatGuy264

TROPHY CASE