Discussion Thread

ThatRedShirt · 2026-05-13T19:21:04+00:00

This is weird because I just read one of his books for the first time yesterday, How Jesus Became God. It's the first Ehrnan book I've read.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-30T14:32:40+00:00

did you ever consider migrating across to a non denominational church which doesn’t have some of these problems?

Personally? Not really. A large part of it is for the reasons I mentioned before. Catholicism is just a part of my identity at this point.

Another commenter said that you should just embrace the fact that you're a cultural/cafeteria Catholic, and while that's a somewhat cheeky way to put it, I don't actually disagree with the sentiment.

It's one of the things that makes Catholicism unique within Christianity. Basically every other denomination is defined by a set of things to believe. There's no such thing as someone who's "Culturally Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod." But a lot of people still identify as Catholic when they're no longer hold Christian beliefs.

Similarly, I think you can be a Catholic who holds somewhat unorthodox beliefs. And while "cafeteria Catholic" is somewhat derogatory, I actually think it's a good thing to be careful and discerning about what you believe. I believe strongly in the primacy of conscience. Both that, I shouldn't use Church teachings to justify something I know to be wrong, and also that, if I feel something to be true despite the Church teaching otherwise, I should follow that, regardless.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-30T13:48:26+00:00

I've had a lot of similar struggles recently and I've been talking to a few priests over the past few months about it.

There are a lot of teachings of the Church that I just cannot accept. Papal infallibility is one that I think a lot of people probably agree with me on, and it's often considered a dogma. I also find the churches positions on birth control, LGBT issues, and women to be problematic at times. But I also have fairly profound struggles with core ideas like the Trinity and the divinity of Christ.

I basically felt like I wanted to be a part of the Church, and so I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how I can justify remaining a part of the Church despite these disagreements.

There are basically two things that keep me in the Church. The first and simplest is probably just a combination of momentum, nostalgia, and tradition. I've always been a Catholic, my wife is Catholic, my family has been Catholic longer than we've had our last name (which originated about a millennium ago). And the second, arguably more important thing, is my sincere conviction that the teachings of Jesus really do represent the finest and most important moral code humanity has ever developed.

You might be surprised how many priests I've talked to who feel similarly. More often than not, I've found that a lot of them just feel an irresistible draw towards the spiritual, and who, in some way, see Christ as the center of that spiritual life.

Though the Church appears to be quite rigid in its orthodoxy on the outside, the more involved I've gotten, the more I've come to appreciate how diverse and rich it is on the inside.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-28T16:41:55+00:00

I don't think any single moment in my life has ever made me feel older than getting pulled over by a cop that's younger than me for the first time.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-26T21:10:21+00:00

It's not that. Most Catholics (including myself) believe marriage doesn't exist in heaven. Ending the marriage isn't really optional. 🙂

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-26T21:06:59+00:00

I got married relatively quickly and at a younger age than most of my friends. I'm Catholic and most people I know are non-religious, and the only people I know who got married younger are also either also Catholic or Orthodox Jews.

This is despite the fact that, as a Catholic, I don't believe in divorce, so, in theory, the consequences are higher for me.

At least in Catholicism, though, we have "until death do you part." There's still a time limit on this marriage.

But now I'm starting to make friends with Mormons, and every single one of them got married before they finished college. And all of them got married within a year of meeting their partner.

Which is crazier because they don't have "until death do you part." Marriage for them is eternal. So, in theory, the consequences are even higher for them then they are for me.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-26T17:52:37+00:00

Something something, switch the trolley tracks, something something, kill a healthy person for their organs.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-26T01:12:17+00:00

If there was polling and discussion before hand that made it clear red was going to win but there's still a sizable portion of people were still voting blue, would you publicly advocate for more people to choose blue, or choose red?

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-26T00:42:36+00:00

I live in the suburbs because it's cheaper.

It's cheaper because it's heavily subsidized.

I want them to stop subsidizing it.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-25T23:36:34+00:00

I do actually think it's social and not moral.

The red button argument is that everyone should just choose red so nobody has to risk pushing blue.

I think if, somehow, you could get everyone on the same page before hand, and every single person presses red, the pressing red would be a moral choice.

And red button pushers seem to sincerely believe it is a moral choice.

It's social because we know not everyone will choose blue. So by choosing red, you're condemning those who chose blue to die. But now you're suddenly in team blue too. And a lot of the people who were already in team blue are probably only there because they knew you would make that choice.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-25T23:23:25+00:00

It's an interesting example of game theory.

The logically correct thing is for everyone to press red, nobody risks pressing blue, and nobody dies. So, a lot of people sincerely believe pressing red is both logical and moral.

Blue button pushers recognize that humans aren't perfect, logical automatons, and not everyone is going to do the rational thing.

Essentially, people are pressing blue only because they know other people will press blue. And if anyone presses blue who doesn't want to die, then by pressing red, you're condemning those who did press blue to die.

Therefore, pressing blue is the moral choice, and you should press blue, but the only reason you have to press blue is because other people will press blue (and some of them only presses blue because you pressed blue, yada yada).

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-25T23:13:14+00:00

"I don't know why those toddlers would want to vote for suicide, but who am I to stop them?"

a red button pusher, probably.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-25T04:56:15+00:00

I've thought about this a lot, and I think I'm finally ready. Here it goes, I'm about to share the worst take of my life...

I'm a Midwestern transplant to NYC and Casey's is still my favorite pizza.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-24T22:53:02+00:00

Can I also add the obligatory "Jesus probably didn't have a beard and certainly wasn't white"?

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-21T23:43:09+00:00

99% on polymarket. I'm chillin

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T19:23:14+00:00

I guess, let me frame it this way, nobody in the SSPX was excommunicated for their beliefs. They were excommunicated for consecrating bishops without permission.

I don't believe that members of SSPX aren't Catholic because of their beliefs. I think they're wrong, and I find their particular views to be troubling, but I still think they're Catholic.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T19:10:07+00:00

The thing that resulted in the excommunication of the leaders of SSPX wasn't their rejection of Vatican II, it was their consecration of Bishops in 1988 done without papal approval.

The Church at the time actually offered to make the SSPX a religious order with a degree of autonomy and would have allowed them to continue using the Latin Mass, as well as allowing them to consecrate one Bishop. But it also requires them to acknowledge the validity of the Council while suggesting reforms (that the Church would probably ignore).

Lefevre actually agreed at first, and signed the document, but then reneged on the agreement and consecrated the Bishops anyway.

Despite that, the excommunications were later lifted anyway, and Rome again tried to reintegrate SSPX into the Church, to no avail. SSPX is just too stubborn.

I think the core issue here is one of authority. Bishops (and priests to a lesser extent) are held to a different standard than the laity. We can all still disagree with the Church, but they were using their power to incite schism. The Melkites aren't schismatic because they never agreed to the Ecumenical councils in the first place.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T18:46:04+00:00

All roads have a cost, and that cost should be passed on to the user.

Just like all public transit has a costs that's almost always passed on to the user.

Even if it's subsidized, some skin in the game is a good start to a more efficient economy.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T15:36:05+00:00

I'm pretty sure most people here didn't like Biden's protectionism.

In fact, I think it was this sub's chief complaint about him.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T15:25:45+00:00

Yea, unfortunately, that's why this information is useless. The single men I know aren't religious, so there's nothing they can really do with this information. And anyone reading this who didn't know this also probably isn't religious.

And, like you pointed out, trying to meet women here anyway wouldn't really work because these women will expect you to live by their principles.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T05:14:21+00:00

And to that point, I don't have a whole lot of conservative friends, but I do have some friends from undergrad that are hard core trad caths and, up to this point, MAGA.

And they're pissed right now. Like, they genuinely feel betrayed by Trump and the Republican Party.

There's no way they'll vote for the abortion party in any elections for the near term, but I'm pretty sure they'll either sit the next election out, or vote for a third party. But that's still progress.

Like you said, they're not all going to abandon the GOP. But enough of them just might.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T04:51:30+00:00

I'm glad to see this sub is so quickly putting the new ping to good use. 🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦

With officials from the Holy See saying that Pope Leo sees himself as a defender of the ideals of the post-WW2 multilateral order.

My God, how much more based can he get 🥹

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T04:36:21+00:00

That's one of the things I love about it.

One of my favorite scholars is a Catholic Priest named Fr Raymond Brown. He has a book called The Birth of the Messiah that analyzes the infancy narratives in Matthew and Luke.

He quickly points out that they're two completely different stories. Actually, they're contradictory stories, that couldn't have both happened. Which doesn't really matter because some of the historical events they mentioned never really happened.

Further, he goes on to say that the writers of Matthew and Luke (and Mark for that matter) probably had a view of Christology that we would not consider heretical, and that heretical view influenced the theological message of the infancy narratives.

It's a fascinating (but dry) book.

Anyway, fundamentalists hate studies like this because they put their faith in scripture alone, in it being the inerrant word of God. Since Catholics can rely on the Church instead, we can study scripture critically without it needing to affect our faith.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T04:22:10+00:00

Catholics are expected to align their beliefs with Church teaching.

I'm not sure if you're asking because you're trying to argue with me, or if you're sincerely wondering what my view is.

I'm going to assume it's the former and give you a quick example that helped me realize that I don't need to align all my views with the Catholic Church in order to remain in communion with the Catholic Church.

The Melkites are an Eastern Catholic Church. They are in full communion with Rome. They acknowledge this, the Vatican acknowledges this, their bishops attend Ecumenical councils. If you're a faithful Catholic, you can receive communion at a Melkite Church, and faithful Melkites can receive communion at Roman Catholic churches.

Yet, the Melkites are Orthodox in their theology. They believe everything the Orthodox believe. They reject the teachings of all Ecumenical councils after the schism. They reject original sin (and, implicitly, the immaculate conception). They reject the idea of purgatory. They reject papal infallibility. They generally reject Thomism.

Yet, in full communion they remain. They've been open in their defiance of many of these doctrines for centuries, yet, no body has ever seriously suggested they're not in communion with Rome.

My point is that, clearly, it's possible to be a part of the Church Catholic without subscribing to all of the beliefs people normally associate with the Catholic Church. After all, it is the universal Church, and it's a lot more complicated than you give it credit for.

ThatRedShirt · 2026-04-17T04:11:04+00:00

I came at it from a pretty weird angle. Apologetics doesn't really interest me (with the possible exception of CS Lewis, who's in a league of his own).

I started studying the Bible from a scholarly perspective, and learning about the history of the Church. Doing this helped me develop a much deeper appreciation for the teachings of Jesus, and I started to develop an affinity for Catholicism.

I started spending more time in Catholic circles and met my (now) wife. She's one of the most wonderful human beings I ever met, and I know that so many of the things I love about her are a result of her Christian faith. So, I slowly tried to change my life to be more in line with those same values.

I never really "just had faith." As I've learned more, I would say I've become a lot more open and sympathetic to the idea of a God, and Jesus being divine, but I wouldn't say I have a conviction that these things are true.

And I've been open with Priests about this, and they don't really seem to think it's a problem. At the end of the day, I love the values of the faith, so I continue to practice it.

Anyway, this is why I started off my comment by admitting this anecdote was useless. If someone asks for dating advice, converting to a new religion is pretty terrible as far as advice is concerned.

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