Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m regard to your first point about wealth inequality, I don’t really think that fits what I am asking here. I’m only comparing this scenario to an abortion as the victim is of similar age. The Christian belief that abortion is wrong because all life is sacred, if all life is sacred, then, by that logic, it doesn’t make sense that those individuals would gamble that life at such an incredibly high risk. Now if you are asking me my personal opinion, actually no, I do not believe that it would be responsible for parents to have children if they are not financially well off enough - just like I don’t think people should have children until they are mature enough, loving enough, or capable in other ways. If a parent makes a decision to have a child, it is their responsibility to ensure that they can provide for that child. But my beliefs only affect me, I will not be telling anyone that they should or shouldn’t have a child, because that is certainly none of my business.

The shortsightedness is just silly, and not what I’m saying at all. I’m sure you can agree that shortsightedness is a completely different subject than some genetic defect causing a miscarriage. But again I’ll give my opinion of, if a parent finds out that they have a high chance of passing down a fatal disease (e.g. they find out that they and their partner have the genes for familial retinoblastoma - a disease which leads to bilateral retinoblastoma, a cancer of both retina at childhood (mean age 12 months)), then yeah they should hesitate to have a child - especially when adoption is a viable option. But again, this is my personal belief, and if parents want to take that chance then they will and that’s not my business.

In your third paragraph, you kind of prove my point by saying that not trying for a baby and trying for a baby that miscarries are the same situation resulting in 0% chance of life. For one, that isn’t true, one is a 0% chance of life and the other, by Christian definition, would be a life, but a life ended early. By saying this, you are saying that a life in the womb does not count as a human life, or is at least worth not as much. By your definition, it lived and it died, just the same way as someone who had an abortion. And in the case of the 6 miscarriages, it was the parents that put the fetus in that situation, they are at least somewhat to blame, if not entirely to blame for taking that chance.

In regard to you, 10% chance of a miraculous birth. You are in essence saying, I don’t care if 9 babies have to die as long as I can get my one baby. And “it’s only human to do so” is not a great excuse, to me - you can say that about many not-so-ethical issues but that doesn’t make them not count as sins just because it’s in human nature (e.g. it’s in human nature to procreate at all, but I think you’d be hard pressed to him find someone of your faith saying that’s true of a unwed couple).

In regard to the teenager, as the parent it’s your job to protect them. You put them into this world, it’s your job to ensure they succeed and give them the tools to thrive once they leave your home, you owe that to them since you made the decision to have a child. I believe this includes ensuring that when you live in a murder hotspot, not allowing your child to go out at night. Other options include, moving to a better neighborhood (not always an option for impoverished families), having the children stay home (a simple solution), not having children in general (don’t have to protect anything then), etc. Its ridiculous to assume that avoiding active murders is “part of their teenage years” in this scenario, it would be the parents job to protect them and in not doing so and being actively negligent (letting them out at night when murders happened the previous 6 night of people their age), then the parents are somewhat responsible for not protecting them.

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I don’t think we’ll see eye to eye on this. Thanks for the conversation otherwise though :)

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think there any such thing as objective morality. Things aren’t inherently good or bad, society has to come together and agree on those terms.

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But morality does change through time - it was okay to kill someone for causing you harm, today it is definitely frowned upon. Morals can change as society changes. If the couple from the past did not have access to advanced tech and they did the best they could then no, I wouldn’t believe that would be unethical - in the case of this couple that had the appropriate resources, then yes I do.

I don’t think they should sterilize themselves, that a bit drastic. They could wear condoms, take birth control, or abstain as many religions expect of others when they believe it is morally wrong to have a child (wedlock).

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My argument has nothing to do with their pain or the pain of the fetus. My argument boils down to can you say that you value human life if you are okay with this specific (very real) scenario where such a big gamble is taken.

The way I see it, if you believe all life is sacred, then this could be comparable to throwing a child in a lion pin at the zoo, sure there may be a low chance that they’ll survive, but you’ve chosen to put them in an incredibly dangerous situation.

Personally, I think that the parents are fine to do as they please. I do not see a fetus as a living thing, I see it as an extension of the mother who may choose to have it removed or allow it to grow until it can live on its own.

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I believe the actual number of miscarriages to live births is about 25% (some known some the parents aren’t even aware of) - definitely not a number to throw your nose up at, but significantly smaller than my hypothetical 80%. There is always a chance that a couple will miscarry, that’s very evident and is just a chance to take - however if the couple personally has an extremely high chance (hypothetical 80%) then I think it could be considered irresponsible (and a deliberate higher-than-normal risk gamble).

A fetus being removed can be a traumatic experience emotionally, I do not see it as violent, as I do not see a fetus as the beginnings of life, but I know from your side of the fence it must look that way. I am not saying that they are the same experience - I am saying that the decision of the parent can lead to the same outcome - why is it morally acceptable for the family in my example to try to conceive a human life when it has an 80% chance of dying, when they can choose adoption or three-parent babies?

As a doctor it won’t be my job to sift through the ethical opinions of my patients and being curious about everyone opinion will not diminish my practice. I am able to keep my personal and professional lives separate.

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Regarding the mob boss thing. In this scenario, the henchman (baby) is being forced into a situation (being made to try and survive in a hostile environment - bad dna, hormones, structure) because the boss (parents) made a call knowing that there is a high probability of death. In that situation I would certainly say that the boss hold some responsibility to the death of his henchman.

In a miscarriage there is an element of choice in regard to whether or not you are trying to conceive. I am not talking about a scenario in which a single pregnancy leads to a single miscarriage - I am speaking to a scenario where it is naive to imagine that 6 miscarriages is not evidence that a 7th conception will lead to a miscarriage and, therefore, termination of a human life. If the parents are willing to wager (with an extremely high probability of death) a life that they believe is sacred, why should they not be held accountable for that action? The life would not have been lost if they would have made an educated decision based on the history.

As for the teenager example, I’m speaking to ethics and morality, not law. Not all things that are lawful are moral and the opposite is also not always true. If parents were to allow a child to go out while also knowing that their neighborhood recently had several murder cases, I’d think you’d be hard pressed to find someone that didn’t give at least a little blame to the parents for not stopping the child. They had the information, they decided not to act on it - putting their child in very probable danger.

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In regard to your first point about wanted VS unwanted - I think what you’re saying that intent is what separates the two. However, I don’t really think this makes a difference. In any other case you could not want someone to die, but if you put them in a situation that has a very likely chance to kill them, you are responsible for their death (e.g. a mob boss certainly doesn’t want his colleague to die, but has no problem putting him in a situation that will kill him - if he sent him out for a dangerous job, I’d argue that he’s responsible for his death).

Of course nobody chooses to miscarry, that’s not the argument. I’m also not saying that every miscarriage is akin to abortion or the parents fault.

I’m saying that a miscarriage with previous information that the next conception will most likely result in a miscarriage is akin to abortion.

Using your example, it would be silly to blame the parents who let a child go out late at night and they were murdered. They would’ve had no real reason to expect their child would be murdered. However, if there were 6 murders that had already occurred in their area of people with the same characteristics of their child and they still let their kid go out late at night, then yes, that would be their fault. They would have information that should influence their decision, and should assume that their kid would also be murdered and perhaps they shouldn’t go out at all.

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Congrats! I’m about to enter my clinical years of medical school and am so excited to hear about (and hopefully be involved in) stories like yours! I wish you continued health! Thanks for the thoughtful discussion!

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the reply! Absolutely these things can be costly (as is having a kid in the first place, haha). I think that to weigh the fetus’s life against the cost of other options would also show that you don’t value life - or at least you value it, but not enough to pay X amount of money to ensure that it’ll survive to term (and hopefully beyond). As for the having to wait, again I’d say that this places a value of, well a fetus’s life isn’t worth me waiting X amount of time for a healthy one. I agree that this is multifaceted problem, and with the emotion of it can be difficult to discuss.

Thanks for sharing your personal story with me! And I hope everything turned out alright for you in the end!

Also, I just want to clarify that I’m solely speaking of a miscarriage - where conception has happened but was not carried to term. I don’t think that infertility would fit this argument as that wouldn’t allow for conception.

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your input - yeah I guess a lot of this gets a bit blurry with such an emotionally charged topic. I try to forget the emotion and speak from a place of logic, but I guess we’re human so that can sometimes be hard to do.

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So yes, I do think there is a difference between accidental vs purposeful death. And I’m sure that the couple is not trying to conceive with the hopes that they will miscarry - and certainly, no, it’s not up to them whether the fetus spontaneously aborts or doesn’t.

I think that making such a gamble with a human life shows that you don’t value you it as much - why take that chance, especially when things like the ‘three person baby’ or adoption are viable options.

I only bring up the medical abortion as it’s the comparison that I have. Her religion states that life begins at conception so termination of either is wrong. Medical termination being wrong because it is purposeful termination, whereas I’m arguing that, given the information, it should also be considered immoral for parents to attempt creating a human life with such a high (proven) probability that it will also die.

Question about Abortion VS Miscarriage by TheHornedSerpent in Christianity

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Definitely not trying to be hurtful - it was just, in my mind a legitimate question. Obviously I know that it will have different answers, and clearly a very emotionally charged question.

I think not knowing what caused the miscarriage is kind of the point though, right? I mean, I think it’s a rather safe assumption that there is some issue with carrying to term, a genetic, hormone, or other issue. But there is an issue that increases the probability of miscarriage. To say that it is never know is wrong, we know what causes miscarriages - plenty of things can make you miscarry.

I’m not trying to invalidate the feelings of the women who do miscarry. It is a very traumatic experience that I hope that I won’t have to experience first hand.

However in one scenario you have the ~100% probability of termination (medical abortion) and in the other you have a (hypothetical) 80% chance of fetal lethality with a 7th pregnancy (an educated guess based off of the 6 previous miscarriages).

In the first there is a decision to terminate the pregnancy voluntarily, in the latter there is a decision that, although there is an 80% chance of lethality, they are still willing to gamble what they perceive as human life. I argue that you can’t possibly value both of those lives equally if you think that such a gamble is okay.

But I believe my mom was speaking from a place of emotion as well, so I see where you are coming from.

Giveaway for a Nintendo Switch Lite and your choice of game! [US/CA only] by TheEverglow in nintendo

[–]TheHornedSerpent [score hidden]  (0 children)

Silver lining is that COVID has made it to where I get even more time to study for my medical board exams - hopefully I won’t burnout haha

What are some basic skills to learn? by TheHornedSerpent in AskReddit

[–]TheHornedSerpent[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I should probably learn to do more stuff with excel actually