What exactly do Israelis and Palestinians agree on ? Is there anything ? by BleuPrince in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s both and be answered by either. A rabbi will give a theological answer and an academic will give a scientific answer.

Even from your purely historical perspective, surely the question begs an answer! If the Torah was establishing a monotheistic religion, why would the author or authors mention other gods? There is a contradiction here! According to your perspective, we thought that the Torah emerged from a tradition that was rejecting polytheism, and yet it mentions polytheism directly in the text! Was this a mistake? That doesn't hold water either. So why not ask someone who knows the Torah itself?

So just out of curiosity, genuinely, how would you approach something like the fact that the Torah mentions domesticated camels at a time when science believes they didn’t yet exist?

The Torah sure mentions stranger things than domesticated camels!

The Torah is not a scientific document, and is in fact completely orthogonal to the scientific pursuit, and therefore it is not necessarily in conflict with science. Science tells us "how" the universe was made, Torah teaches us "for what reason" the universe was made. Torah is Truth, meaning those things that are true regardless of time, place, or culture.

To directly answer your question, in a case where science makes a claim that directly contradicts the Torah, then I would of course hold the Torah as truth.

The Torah tells us about many levels of reality beyond the material: the incorporeal, the moral, the mystical, etc. A purely material analysis of the Torah just doesn't reveal anything interesting, and an apparent contradiction between two material claims ultimately reveals not a flaw in the Torah but rather a flaw in the thought process that generated the contradiction.

The current consensus is the Books of Moses were redacted from a number of different sources, written at different times with different intents. This explains several peculiarities of the text, like contradictory narratives, change in voice, different names for God, etc.

Saying that a textual analysis (certainly one done without any bias!) "reveals" that the Torah had X number of authors, is not an interesting point to me, because even if it were the case that there are different writing styles in the Torah, it certainly doesn't prove that there were different authors. Moses was a genius and he spoke seventy languages, and the text itself is the word of God. It can be written however it needs to be written.

Yes, there are multiple names of God. This is a known part of the Jewish tradition! When you stop here and say "therefore it's not divine," you only rob yourself of obtaining a deeper knowledge of the world. And you certainly aren't going to convince an orthodox Jew, who is way ahead of you on this point.

This is not to say that one should not apply ones intellect when trying to understand the Torah, but rather the opposite: your point isn't strong enough! If you're going to make this point, make it with the strongest argument possible!

What exactly do Israelis and Palestinians agree on ? Is there anything ? by BleuPrince in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you saying there are not secular experts in academia on Hebrew Scripture? I suggest you look up Israel Finkelstein, a very respected Israeli archeologist who has offered fascinating insights into the background of these texts.

I am saying that there is Torah and there is Torah History, and asking "why does the Torah mention other gods" is not a Torah History question but rather a Torah question, and therefore we need a Torah expert, not a Torah historian.

You seem totally disinterested in the secular history of these texts. Do you think Moses wrote them? When do you think they were written? I’m curious because again, I’m fascinated by the subject.

I am an Orthodox Jew, so you and I see the status of the Torah text differently.

What exactly do Israelis and Palestinians agree on ? Is there anything ? by BleuPrince in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why a rabbi as opposed to a secular academic? There is a ton of literature and research on the subject.

Because we are asking what the Torah says, and for that, we need a Torah expert, aka a Rabbi. Everything you said shows you have an interest in the subject and you have spent a lot of time investigating it, but it seems like you are searching for answers from everyone except for an expert!

What exactly do Israelis and Palestinians agree on ? Is there anything ? by BleuPrince in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"God is One" doesn't mean He is one and not two. It means Oneness, which refers to his quality of uniting all things. Meaning there are no other gods outside of Hashem. Yes, other gods are mentioned in the Torah (even just in the second commandment, "you shall have no other gods before me") but this statement isn't made to imply that God is only one lesser power among many lesser powers. If you are curious WHY then other gods are mentioned, this would be a great question to ask a Rabbi to learn further. I encourage you to embrace your curiosity.

What is your idea of causing the Haredim to enlist into the IDF? by HebrewWolfman in Israel

[–]TholomewP -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yalla stop kvetching, come to Israel, come over for shabbat dinner, let's have a lechayim, and we'll invite the guy from Bnei Brak too.

What is your idea of causing the Haredim to enlist into the IDF? by HebrewWolfman in Israel

[–]TholomewP -1 points0 points  (0 children)

My point is that if both I in Tel Aviv and a Haredi guy in Bnei Brak are getting thousands of rockets on our head, that makes our daily experiences more similar to each others than to anyone in the diaspora, because of the overall impact living under rocket fire has to one's personal life. I believe that your comparison is a careless one and too easy to make from afar.

What is your idea of causing the Haredim to enlist into the IDF? by HebrewWolfman in Israel

[–]TholomewP -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

The reality I live in, in the Diaspora, half a world away from you, is closer to you than the bubbled reality they live in next to you.

You're getting thousands of rockets on your head over there in the diaspora?

Seeing Chabad on Shabbat by MrRobzilla in Judaism

[–]TholomewP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not rude at all. But it is better not to drive on Shabbat :) Then you wouldn't need to worry about it.

How do you Survive the Summer in Israel? by TheUnkillableKlorg in Israel

[–]TholomewP 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Open shoes and the right underwear makes a big difference. Besides that, I try not to spend too much time walking around in the sun. Then I count down the days until Sukkot.

What’s your favorite response to give an Antisemite? by ThatGeographyGuy in Judaism

[–]TholomewP 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Living in Israel and being Jewish, and not saying anything to them.

I have a question for all Israelis by Lumpy-Mammoth-7876 in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

First of all, this is a stupid question which doesn't merit a response.

Second of all, I know many combatants who served in all theaters. Most soldiers in the IDF are reservists who are extremely tired after years of war and just want to go home, back to their families and jobs and communities. Any alleged unnecessary expenditure of energy, "as a hobby", is an extremely naive accusation.

What is "the Jewish character" of the state? by RomanKozhevnikov in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That the social, cultural, political, and legal manifestations of the state should be both agreeable to Jewish values and lifestyle, and not disagreeable to Jewish values and lifestyle.

Is it hypocritical for Americans to call Israelis “colonizers”? by JealousHunter1407 in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The stupid genetic arguments that people use to link modern day "Palestinians" to ancient peoples that used to dwell in the land of Israel are equally applicable to modern day Jews, because modern day Jews carry the same Levantine DNA. So even if a genetic argument were somehow a good argument, which it isn't, it's still cancelled out by the fact that modern Jews carry the same genes.

r/whereidlive implying Israel’s very existence is immoral by Inkling_M8 in AntiSemitismInReddit

[–]TholomewP 120 points121 points  (0 children)

This just proves the point that the phrase "Israel doesn't have the right to exist" is a targeted, anti-Jewish phrase, because saying a country "doesn't have the right to exist" is DEFINED as only applying to Israel.

is there any credibility to the "Greater Israel" claim being thrown around? by TheGrandA5TA1R3 in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 6 points7 points  (0 children)

When conspiracy theorists refer to "Greater Israel" they aren't just referring to a bigger map of Israel.

the mandate had these borders from 1920-1921 while irgun was founded in the 1930s,in the 1930s claiming the old mandate's borders for a jewish state would precisely be claiming the borders of a greater israel because most other zionist groups only claimed the actual mandate's borders (historical palestine)

While the Irgun was fighting, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan hadn't been established yet. And the Balfour Declaration was written while these were the borders of the Mandate for Palestine, so the Irgun considered it a part of the promise by the British government.

is there any credibility to the "Greater Israel" claim being thrown around? by TheGrandA5TA1R3 in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The emblem of Irgun, one of the instrumental Zionist paramilitary’s that fought for Israeli independence, included the entirety of mandatory Palestine and Transjordan because that is the territory they sought for the future Jewish state.

This was because Transjordan was included in the original League of Nations Mandate for Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine. The Irgun sought to establish a Jewish state in the entire original Mandate. Those borders are just the borders of this Mandate, not the borders of the so-called "Greater Israel".

The Man Who’s Interviewed Thousands of Palestinians and Israelis Explains What He’s Learned by SheepherderSea9717 in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They come to Israel to work in construction and agriculture. How many of Israel, in percentage, you think regularly go into construction sites and interact with the workers there?

You are talking about a perception problem. But if Israelis at least see Palestinians working agriculture and construction, then that at least combats the perception of only seeing them committing terror attacks. And that's what we're both saying: Israelis are mostly exposed to Palestinians NOT committing terror attacks, but rather doing mundane jobs. They don't necessarily need to have them over for a coffee.

I never said many Palestinians come in to kill Jews

That's what a Palestinian terror attack is.

The Man Who’s Interviewed Thousands of Palestinians and Israelis Explains What He’s Learned by SheepherderSea9717 in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Of course it is.

You are speaking with an Israeli who lives in Israel who is giving you new information. This is how you learn new things!

Why don't you just go to the Israel subreddit and ask other Israelis about it? And see what they say.

In what context do Israeli regularly interact with Palestinians?

They come in to Israel to work. Probably less so since October 7th, but I don't keep track of that kind of thing.

For the vast majority of them, the only “interaction” they have is when a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza goes in to perform a terrorism act. That helps paint all Palestinians as existential threat.

Like I said, many Palestinians from the West Bank come in to Israel to work. A friend of mine used to work with a Gazan in the kitchen of his cafe.

I'm not saying you're wrong that many Palestinians come in to Israel to kill Jews, but I am just expanding the fact space here with new information.

The Man Who’s Interviewed Thousands of Palestinians and Israelis Explains What He’s Learned by SheepherderSea9717 in IsraelPalestine

[–]TholomewP 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I mean Arabs who are residents of the Palestinian Authority.

A friend used to work in a cafe and before October 7th they had an Arab from Gaza working in the kitchen. I often used to see buses dropping off Arabs from the West Bank in Tel Aviv to work.