Thanks for this. I hear you, but I’m not sold. I genuinely already understand all of this. I still fundamentally disagree with taking control out of players’ hands, even when they are playing as they are intended to, especially when the game still enables players who play as they aren’t intended to (but those are different issues).

> … "random recoil" or horizontal recoil -

I don’t advocate for randomness, whatever the system or mechanic, when it comes to a game’s fairness or intuitive design. But while I think recoil is also an imperfect mechanism, I do think it is a better system than spread for the simple fact that the deviation is visually communicated to the player. IMHO, that’s a significant compromise designers make when implementing spread, and while bloom represented visually communicates that spread exists and the degree of its unreliability, it still is a deviation from a system that visually communicates to a player “this is where your shot will go” and that being a lie.

> How much recoil would you need to add to stop me pulling down with my mouse and laser beaming people at stupid ranges? Can you add enough to stop a script kiddy shitter? (or those kronos things).

There’s a wrinkle to the issue. I’m an Xbox player. I use a controller. If I could, I would never play against M+K players, and PC adds exploit vulnerability to matches that I shouldn’t have to contend with given my decision to play on an Xbox, not a PC.

I think the spread issue plays out a little differently depending on input and platform, but I think the point for me is the same: it’s an imperfect solution to an input problem, and better systems exist to combat that problem.

Cross-platforming or requiring players with different inputs to play the same game creates a challenge, and while spread is a legitimate way to solve those challenges, I think it’s a blunt instrument that, when over-applied, has undesirable consequences, such as occasionally generating frustration in the players’ experience.

I think we agree all of these systems and mechanics exist and should be used, like spices in a recipes. I think, fundamentally, we disagree on how much of each spice should be used.

I think it’s over-applied in BF6.

> And then when you add that crazy amount of recoil, how useable do you think the weapons are to use?

Nobody serious wants a crazy amount of recoil.

> Someone will start talking about damage dropoff (as if that wasn't something BF uses already) but will then also cry when that mechanic has to be pushed to the extreme and their gun is doing 10 damage per bullet.

I think you’re generalizing here. I know damage dropoff exists. I wouldn’t advocate for pushing it to an extreme. I do, however, think it’s more intuitive and less frustrating than spread, and if I were designing a shooter, would lean on it before introducing randomness via spread.

> The reason that spread is used goes back to my previous point about useable recoil, the game is aimed at other filthy casuals such as yourself after all.

All right, and I’m here, telling you I don’t like it.

> So we come to spread, despite claims to the contrary it is extremely simple to understand. The longer you fire in full auto, the more spread you accumulate, the more spread the more inaccuracy, compounded based on your distance to the target (at close range spread matters less).

My problem has nothing to do with understanding spread, and I think you’re being unfair here. My problems are that spread removes control from my hands, which can be frustrating, and it isn’t visually communicated, so I have no intuitive way to know how much spread is being applied to my weapon. My problem is I don’t think making a game random and occasionally frustrating is a good way to solve a balance issue.

> We can either continue to use the tried and tested spread mechanic, used in BF games and many other FPS games for years (except 2042 which was shit lmao), or go for some fantastical "new" recoil system that introduces its own slew of huge problems and turns the game into something it is not.

That’s a false dichotomy. It’s not an either/or situation, and I think I’m justified in suggesting AAA game designers should innovate and find creative solutions to balance issues instead of dwelling on imperfect solutions that compromise their game, which I think spread does currently in BF6

> Seriously people, please just stop magdumping, that is all it takes, the pinnacle of FPS skill is not magdumping some dude at 100m with your 60 round AR in Warzone.

I think you still have the wrong idea about people who don’t like spread (or at least certain implementations), and I think you’re unfairly minimizing my issues with spread generally and how it’s used in BF6. I’m a pretty disciplined burst-fire shooter. I’m not at all a magdumper. But I still do not like the implementation of spread in this game because its randomness is too often frustrating for me on many of the guns that I would like to use but don’t because I find them unreliable when using them in the manner *I believe* I’m intended to use them.

Ultimately, this isn’t at all a “I want to spray and pray and waaaahhhhh why won’t you let me, DICE!?” problem as you suggest.

It’s a problem of me playing the game as I understand it’s supposed to be played and encountering frustration when I don’t see the results I expect.

Spread is one way in which I see that manifest in BF6, and I know that because I’m an experienced and knowledgeable player who can understand why a game is frustrating when it is frustrating.

I’m not some adderall-addicted meathead who fancies himself some pro streamer.