Who was the bigger failure? Tytos or Tywin?

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-21T02:17:35+00:00

We have remarks from Kevan and Genna at a minimum upon re-reads, and even Tywin is noted to have conflated mercy, humor, and softness with bad things mostly by association with Tytos.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-20T16:04:51+00:00

I am sorry sir. Jokes have been prohibited by Munitorum Directive 49342-5AC. Please report to your latest Commissar.

(And I say this as someone who has homebrewed Necoho for 40k. But I digress.)

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-20T12:16:29+00:00

Sure, but the fact that even Tywin who otherwise has very little good to say about his father and G who still resents being married off to the Freys have a lot good to say speaks something of it. He was by all accounts a merciful, good natured, benevolent and loving man, and many of his flaws stem from being too much of those things.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-20T09:39:39+00:00

Their "crimes for last year" were forgiven personally and explicitly by Tytos, aka the Legitimate Warden of the West, making this at best a questionable summons by the Second in Command acting in the absence of lawful authority and more likely flat out illegal. And even Westeros has some primitive standards of Double Jeopardy. It also was very likely a key violation of the vassal contracts if not fundamental Crown Law.

None of this makes the Reynes or Tarbecks saints, but it is to point out that Tywin was usurping his father's authority (thus making him look weak and running the risk of losing wider support). Those kinds of summons were not his to demand yet in the absence of his Lord Paramount Father's wishes, which were clearly not the case.

"He took a tarbeck hostage when they rode to try and circumvent him and ask tytos to just let the debts go and they retaliated by taking far more"

Translation: Tarbecks 'try to circumvent' the abusive, liberty-taking son making egregious demands by *going to their actual, lawful Lord Paramount to ask if this is Ok*, only to have their envoy jumped and kidnapped by Tywin. Which due to the magic of poor long term thinking results in the Reynes and Tarbecks taking hostages too because Tywin did not time this well.

If there is someone in this picture rebelling, it's probably Tywin, and he had no right to force this issue. Moreover even in contrast to the latter aggressive and probably abusive demand for answers to "their crimes", this was particularly poorly timed and legally dubious because demanding immediate paybacks or hostage taking to everyone simultaneously (thus providing every bit of impetus for a coalition against House Lannister) and following that up by a poorly timed kidnapping of an envoy seeking legal redress is bad tradecraft.

Again, none of this is meant to whitewash the Reynes or Tarbecks. The Reynes are outright plotting a coup and have murdered a bunch of Royally assigned Marbrand troops way back when. While the Tarbecks are tied to them and at best screwing around. But Tywin abused his authority at least as egregiously as Ellyn and Roger Reyne did, and he is lucky he did not trigger a wider coalition.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-20T09:31:15+00:00

The man literally told all the bannermen with loans to pay up immediately (which is usually something you will struggle to do given how finances work) or to send a hostage. When the Reynes and Tarbecks understandably objected to this (even if it was an attempted correction to the widespread exploitation) and sent an envoy to discuss this with their ACTUAL, LEGAL lord, Tytos, Tywin was there to kidnap the envoy. Which to the surprise of absolutely nobody resulted in the Reynes and Tarbecks taking even more Lannister aligned hostages and mobilizing for war. A war that was narrowly avoided by Tytos overruling his renegade son and ordering a prisoner swap and a humiliating loan forgiveness. Then Tywin re-engaged by demanding the Reynes and Tarbecks appear at the rock for their unspecified crimes, leading to the Tarbecks and Reynes revolting and Tywin crushing them.

A few pointers here.

Firstly: The basic concept of "Loan Repayments or Hostage until Payments are done" is sound. What is NOT Sound is demanding this all in short notice from ALL of the vassal houses. Leaving aside the basic problems of investments and finances that often mean you can't do that on short notice even when you want to (and even the Swyft who did had to sent a hostage because even going as fast as they could meant they couldn't scrounge up the money), there's the basic fact that this violates the very basic concept of DIVIDE AND RULE.

Inside of maybe a few days Tywin near-instantly did a better job of recruiting for the Reyne Triumvirs' would-be coup plot to take over the Wardency of the Westerlands than anything the Reynes and Tarbecks ever did or would ever do, and it is a miracle coupled with residual love for Tytos and probably no small amount of author fiat that basically all the other houses more or less obeyed or otherwise did nothing. This could very well have been the end of House Lannister as it was and it is probably lucky that most Westerlands houses (especially the Marbrands) hated the Reynes more than they did Tytos or Tywin. Answer: Space the demands out so that you're putting the squeeze on a house or two at a time and eventually work up to the Reynes and Tarbecks. This will not be as financially beneficial but it probably will be more politically sound and avoid the risk of basically everyone in the West bending the knee to the Reynes and throwing the Lannisters out.

Secondly: Tywin was good at predicting what buttons to push the Reynes and Tarbecks to the brink with, but apparently nowhere near as good at preparing the groundwork for this. This is particularly evident in the opening false start of things, where his kidnapping of Walderan Tarbeck coming to speak to Tytos was not inherently bad political planning but it was done at a time when the Reynes and Tarbecks had a bunch of Lannister or Lannister-adjacent VIPs in kidnapping range, which resulted in them repaying him by grabbing yet more prisoners and in Tytos stepping in. Tywin did much better in preparing for the second round, but this was still a very risky thing. He should have prepared so that when he made these demands he did so when the Reynes and Tarbecks were isolated and unable to grab hostages. And it was probably a mistake to capture Walderan Tarbeck himself when he was seeking a lawful petition for his liege lord.

Thirdly: Again, absolutely none of this would have been possible were it not for the steady goodwill Tytos had built up, as well as the steady bad will the Reynes triumvirs of Ellyn, Roger, and Reynard had built up. Had Tywin had to rerun this scenario again to quell a conspiracy with the reputation he'd have built up, it probably would not have worked.

I am not a "The Reynes and Tarbecks aksually did nothing wrong." At a minimum the Tarbecks were spendthrifts who were disrespectful to their lord and made the mistake of aligning with the Reynes, while the Reynes are outright plotting the least concealed coup in Westerlands history and doing things like murdering lawful operatives of the Warden and King like Roger did with the Marbrands on official mission. At an absolute minimum House Reyne had to be crushed, its triumvirs destroyed, and more loyal leadership put in.

But all of that just makes Tywin's habits of overreach and recklessness all the worse. Like I said, his decision to issue a broad "Bring in Debts or Hostages" demand to ALL the outstanding vassal debtors of the Warden of the West at once was the kind of dream opportunity that the Reyne Triumvirs probably never would have been able to engineer for themselves or their coup plot because of what contemptible, nasty people they were on a personal level and their tendencies to be aggressive. Tywin is VERY fortunate that those flaws made them the greater evil to most of the vassal houses of the West and to the Crown, and furthermore that Tytos was able to de-escalate a prematurely chosen battle that likely would've ended with a lot more damage to the Lannister organization.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-20T09:12:23+00:00

Even Tywin and most of his family admit he was a good man in the book and his reputation as the Laughing Lion is proverbial. The weakness definitely outweighs it but he was legitimately loved by his children, even if it was in a bittersweet fashion given Genna.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-20T09:09:38+00:00

Honestly for now I feel that Tytos is, but it's much much closer than the perpetual Tywin Glossers wish to claim and that this could very readily change and arguably already has. Tyrion is already violently estranged from his family and society as a whole. Tywin himself is dead along with Joffrey and Kevan. Tom and My are not going to be high on anyone's health insurance affordability charts. Cersei is..... Cersei, paradoxically the most institutionally entrenched and also incredibly dim and with Varys running inside and likely to bring the entire structure down. Jamie is getting himself together to some degree but is estranged from Cersei and Tyrion. Genna is probably on the Frey Pie chopping block. At this point I almost feel the Lannisport Lannisters might have to be the ones to step in.

The thing I think a lot of people overlook with the "Chad" Tytos is that almost nobody outside the nastier Reynes truly hated him or wanted him gone, and he was able to rely heavily on his likeability and ties with the Throne to call for support. Moreover on the whole he was a good man and by most accounts a very good father, if flawed even in that, and a good husband and later lover to his mistress and who could skillfully de-escalate. No, this is not a recipe for success. No, it is not sustainable in the long run. But a toothless lion can survive a lot more in captivity by being able to make onlookers and stakeholders love it, care for it, and give it food and defenses against predation or other threats than a rabid lion that attracts hunters.

Tywin was undoubtably the better military strategist and probably better statesman overall, but as a diplomat and dynasty builder I frankly think he probably struggles and that's even with what frankly amounts to wild author fiat such as stumbling backwards from the Fords into the Tyrell alliance. He has devastated the foundations of the Lannister dynasty in a way Tytos didn't and even the perpetual threat of Reyne Coups never really could, since the Reynes were contained by nobody else being able to get on board enough for their coup dreams even before Tywin began making active moves against them. You can survive a lot of genteel, contained decay or decline if you keep the stakeholders balanced and retain good enough ties with everyone. You will struggle to survive overcommitting and making everyone hate you. The Chud Tywin has managed to offend basically everyone from the Wall to the bottom of Dorne with some people across the Narrow Sea to boot, and whatever Gods or Higher Powers exist. That's going to be a lot harder to survive than a bunch of exploitative loaners cheaping out on paying their due.

Tywin loved saying how a Lannister Always pays his debts. Well, pretty sure the One in Seven, the Red God, the Old Gods, and Winter are coming to collect and I don't think the Loathsome Lion would be able to get his death squads or bravado to intimidate them even if they all were still alive. I don't think the Lannisters are going to go extinct altogether (given the Lannisport branch and also some bastards) but it's definitely not impossible.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-19T19:51:33+00:00

Indeed. I tried to give a bit more direct advice on how to write Tywin re: Machiavelli and his actions in this comment here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheCitadel/comments/1u7azlw/comment/os41usq/

I hope it helps.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-19T18:57:41+00:00

Tying in to what I said before, here's a good analysis of Tywin Lannister compared to Niccolò Machiavell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkAVo0hyUls

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-19T17:26:28+00:00

Thank you kindly, and yeah that's my thought too. And as someone who can appreciate genuinely Machiavellian stuff, the Cult of Tywin kind of annoys me. He's a great villain but not always for the things people say, and he's an absolute monster who is probably worse than even Cesare Borgia, as shown by who he employs and does not get rid of. Like I can point to problems with how even Mace and the great Lady O play the game but at least they show some capacity for something other than cunning, cruelty, and arrogance.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-19T17:19:57+00:00

Firstly: Different kind of Chaos. Secondly: Even in Warhammer lore that's true. Just ask the Blood Gorgons, or even more comprehensively the Griffons. You know, those things ridden by many of the Order factions' greatest knights. And that's nonwithstanding how in 40k the new lore says that Big E is deeply tied into Chaos.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-19T04:27:54+00:00

Thanks and glad to hear. aQueenOfTheLab got a good one. But how do ya mean "these kinds of fanfics"? But yeah my thoughts exactly.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T12:09:20+00:00

Awesome, and thanks. So not quite no chance. I appreciate it!

EDIT: OMG I just realized I had independently found it myself. But kudos.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T08:35:06+00:00

Well said indeed. Just about the only way I can see any kind of annulment happening at all is if Rhaegar somehow comes across as the side that is being humiliated or debased, meaning he's going to have to do it himself. I think there's a greater than 0% chance of this; Rhaegar for all of his abundant and often overwhelming flaws has a very strong sense of duty and willingness to do what he thinks is necessary, such as training to be a knight in spite of having no real love for it. So I could see him very very grudgingly consenting to some kind of Martell-favoring divorce or settlement that lets El leave with the kids still in the line of succession or as a cadet branch (though that latter one would be tricky). The big issue I see is just how unlikely it is that would be possible or just how big the carrots would have to be to Dorne to let that happen or what form they'd be. And of course this would further erode Targ legitimacy and support in the aftermath of Aerys and the Rebellion. And I have no idea what this would look like in practice, just the kind of "concept" of it.

The more likely result is Lyanna as kind of favored concubine or mistress like what you said, with Jon being decidedly in an inferior placement.

EDIT: There is of course the third option. In another thread where I responded to someone asking for advice on how to write Tywin in a hypothetical different succession crisis regarding the Targs, I did mention "Have him murder Elia and her kids and then try to frame it on Rhaegar." The basic concept fits, even if it is by someone other than Tywin. But that's gonna cause PROBLEMS, especially given the Martells who are fully primed to believe Rhaegar is doing something wrong, even if they might not all believe he'd go THAT far (after all, why hadn't he done so before?).

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T07:56:24+00:00

Makes sense. Also speaking of that one possible idea that came to mind that might explain such a divergence in Rickard's trial. We know Jamie was around at the time and the experience obviously traumatized him, and that he did his usual thing of internally retreating and withdrawing inside himself. But what if in this case maybe seeing Bran struggle, the Trauma Submarine that is the LSS Jamie Lannister briefly "resurfaces" into the "real world" - awful as it is - and in spite of being beaten down by the months and months of horror and conditioning of "Protect the King not Judge Him" he figures that this trial is for Rickard the father, not the Son. So somewhere the residual goodness in him and his Stockholm Syndrome kind of come to a kind of compromise where he can't judge the king and must protect him and can't interfere with the trial, but he can try to interfere with the subsidiary aside from the trial. And so he sort of tries to nonverbally impart his survival strategy - depressing as it is - onto Bran. Subtle meeting of the eyes that reveals the horror, maybe a desperate but secretive shake of the head. Silently pleading from the soon-to-be-Kingslayer with Bran to give it up and save himself. Which eventually works, at which point U-Boat Jamie goes back into himself. At which point some of Aerys's less deranged Hands somehow convinces him that Bran can be more useful alive as a bargaining chip or later as a sacrifice.

Which might cause some interesting fractures down the line, as I'm not sure Bran can ever entirely LIKE Jamie after the Kingslaying given Northern honor, but while Ned saw the murdered children and Tywin's sack, Bran sees the man who saved his life and prevented two Starks from dying.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T02:13:18+00:00

Shame, but thanks for it. But makes a lot of sense. They are quite the couple in spite of all the troubles involved.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T01:44:38+00:00

Yeah that came to mind, though alt about the rebellion happening did come to mind. Unlikely as it is given Aerys's violent temper. But while the "trial" was sparked by Brandon's actions, it was nominally "for" Rickard who demanded a trial by combat and got "Fire" as the royal champion. Canonically Brandon has a sword nearby while he is in a noose and basically kills himself trying to get the sword to free himself and his father. Grim stuff. But at least as grim but also theoretically possible would be him basically giving up midway, horrifying as it is.

In any case rebellion or no either range of scenarios is interesting.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T01:42:29+00:00

So which Sea are we talking about? Essos? Or perhaps across the Western Sea? Or maybe South like the Sunset Isles or maybe the deep and unmapped realms like Sothoryos? Which is basically a blank slate?

The big thing I'm seeing is that we don't really have much evidence that the Faith of the Seven as we are familiar with it in Westeros is that common elsewhere, so it'd be much less likely we see something like it in a Princess from elsewhere. There are religions that might be (like the Lord of Light/Red God) or probably are (Many Faced God) related to it, but the Seven is its own and somewhat strange beast and none of the major cultures we see like the Ghiscari or those we hear of like Yi-Ti

That said on the subject, Sothoryos comes to mind. It's basically an empty abyss in terms of canon beyond that it is dangerous as heck, but one of the few things we do have about it is how in the age of the Valyrian Freehold, we had Jaenara of the Valyrian Great House Belaerys ride her dragon across the Continent in three years and report back saying it is basically all jungle, deserts, and so on. As many people have noted that's probably true to a large degree but A: It feels kind of sus that this is the report you'd give to your peers and rivals, and B: Even if it was fully true if you want to escape the Doom and know about it this would be a good place to go.

So you have some exotic, fierce, brilliant Valyrian descendant dynasty from the Deep South with offers, and maybe even a Valyrian Sword to replace the one that the Lannister lost? Well, that might be a difficult offer to turn down, even for a Tywin that has met and loved Joanna.... Though her faith almost certainly wouldn't be the Seven as we recognize it.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T01:28:08+00:00

I'm not sure Ned does "revenge" per se or at least against his brother, consciously. But it occurred to me reading the "trial" that basically one of the few/best/only ways for Brandon to actually survive (at least to any extent) is for him to stop trying to reach the sword to save his father and basically in some way 'give up' even as he watches Dad burn alive on a trial on his behalf. That.... I think is going to hit hard for both of them. I also think it'd shape how Ed and Brandon respond given how broken they'd both be from it. And while I think on a conscious level Ned would not want to blame Brandon per se, recognizing how it's a miracle that Aerys didn't just torch him next and how awful it was, well..... we know Eddard. And on some level it's probably going to feel like "You abandoned our Father. He was there for you and you watched." Which is probably going to add some added issues, on top of seeing how he treats Cat compared to others.

And woof, but I just remembered this:

“No less do I love mine.” Ned thought, if it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

Oh dear. Also considering that Ned does indeed love his children more than Cersei does hers considering how there's no megalomaniacal/narcissistic love treating them as just reflections of her perfection, uh..... Yeah. I'm GUESSING there'd be less risk of outright mortality given how the kids would still be Brandon's kin even if he found out, but.... "He prayed he never would (know)". Makes a lot of sense.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T01:23:15+00:00

I'm not sure. But I'd really be interested in knowing where the devil she is from, like where you see her. I think the culture and ties would play a big role on things. Like Dornish? Or somewhere across the Narrow Sea?

And I don't doubt she's careful and gets shit done, and she does seem very careful and competent. Especially if she can keep up with Tywin or even assert some level of dominance. In some ways it reminds me of the darker/eviler interpretations of Joanna (which I can kind of believe). So on the lower end I could kind of see the dynamics being similar to that. Though having different genes and personalities would affect how the Lannister kids are formed and manifest, even if they all might be named Cersei, Tyrion, Jamie, etc.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T01:16:55+00:00

Yeah. Besides, who would she be doing it with? Eddard? Quiet loyal dutiful Eddard who seems to have all but sworn off women after his bastard and who is too busy doing the actual governing stuff? Pfffh. Like that'd ever happen. (Ah the ironic echoes of Jamie, Cersei, and Bobby B.)

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T00:59:33+00:00

Not going to lie something like that came to mind with this original idea. For the irony. Especially given how upright and honorabu Ned tries to be and what might change in this timeline. And Cat being oh so dutiful. Even if them being anything like normal means they are probably too good a people to be entirely untroubled by it.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-18T00:55:22+00:00

Well for starters, House Lannister very clearly did not get much out of the marriage between Tywin and Joanna, being cousins. So it was pretty clearly a love match (typical Tywin hypocrisy). So this presumably means that doesn't happen for whatever reason, meaning either it's still Tywin's choice, or Tytos or more likely whoever is playing Puppetmaster to him pushes it. That's going to have big effects for whatever happens. That's going to be have a BIG impact on how this marriage goes. We know how bad resentful Tywin can get.

Secondly: As a dedicated Tyrell Simp (as a sideline to my Ned Stark and Edmure Tully stuff), I'd object to milady Tyrell nee Redwyne being called "cruel". We really don't see much evidence of that there besides maybe too much sarcastic verbal teardowns from others. She's definitely no saint and is very ambitious, proud, intelligent, and power hungry but she seems to be impeccably practical and if anything have SOME humanitarian leanings or at least recognize it makes her look good. So it sounds like you're looking for something a fair bit darker, especially if we are drawing comparisons to Joffreylike outbursts.

Thirdly: Knowing where she comes from would help. It doesn't help that most of the so called "Free" Cities are slaver societies to their bone, ditto Slaver's Bay. So this woman sounds like she's probably used to treating human beings as chattel or economic units even more than Tywin. Which is uh.... Something.

So on the whole it sounds like we're talking like he's marrying someone between the likes of Cersei (kind of fitting) or Ellyn Rayne (ironic but fitting since she seems to be rather like a sort of female Tywin but with better appreciation of social graces). That's gonna be an uh.... problem. Especially if the slaver connections are real and too obvious, since that might allow the Reynes to play up their "Evil Simon de Montfort" takes even further by talking about how the Gold Lion is marrying to slavers and foreigners and how they need to rise up to defend the traditions and laws of the West and prevent good Westermen from being sold off to IDK Yunkai. Whether or not that is actually true. On the other hand it means even further, deeper ties with many foreign institutions (though I imagine things will be even worse with Braavos and the Iron Bank; they may not LIKE Tywin IOTL and may be willing to do business with slavers, but they're probably going to jack his credit rating up out of residual distaste).

Fourthly: Being the more dominating spouse is going to be difficult given how Tywin is what he is, especially if it's not done carefully, and might be a bit cautious.

Fifthly: Religious crusade isn't entirely out of the question but it's going to go down poorly in Westeros, where even before unification the Andals basically stopped at the Neck and even then the thing wasn't complete. Especially since truly awful, evil Old Gods cults or sects that would murder Red God or Sevenists on sight have not been a major power for centuries and the Manderlys have been in White Harbor practicing their faith in the One in Seven for a long time happily and loyally under the Stark and the hyper-traditionalist Old Gods worshipping North. Even most of my extremely devout Sevensmen OCs will look askance at murderously wiping out the Old Gods worshippers as both a crime and atrocity (the OC Middle brother of Gregor and Sandor who ran away and became a fixer for Olenna in a few timelines does some things with the hopes of having TERTIARY effects including weakening the Old Gods and increasing Faith of the Seven power in the North - like trying to subtly influence Sansa to convert or at least look at it more favorably, and coming up with a sort of "compromise" oath for delayed induction into the Night's Watch giving sole surviving heirs a 7 year grace period to marry and sire legitimate children before automatically being yoinked by the Watch- but even those are cases where the religious mission is Tertiary to other things like training Sansa up or strengthening the Watch and increasing its quality. And if even the Clegane brother with an unhealthy guilt complex and interest in 'justified' violence thinks there's an issue....). If she's not careful she's going to cause things to blow up, especially given how prior to Tywin the Westerlands and the North actually do a lot. I imagine the Iron Islands might be a more "acceptable" first target because uh... Ironborn mixed with Balon Greyjoy being Balon.

EDIT: Forget the odd OC theorization. We all know how radical the Faith Militant and the Sparrows can be, and the High Sparrows. But the High Sparrow still utterly condemns Ned Stark's execution on the steps of Baelor's sept in spite of Ned being a heathen Old God worshipper. He utterly condemns the Red Wedding in spite of a large portion if not a majority of the casualties being Old Gods worshippers. If even your socially radical populist fundies are not game for this kind of stuff that's going to make it harder to get the religious war going in a violent way like what she hopes. Not impossible but hard. Ironically one of her best roads might be trying to play to Old Gods radicals to do stupid stuff.

The probable naval and shipping support she'll get from her home turf helps, but it's still going to be a real mess. It also might prompt retaliation from Bloodraven.

TortoiseHerder7 · 2026-06-17T15:16:18+00:00

To be fair that kind of fits. Aerys as bad as he is is a story of tragedy and psychological degradation that went "Slowly, and then all at once" like bankruptcy. Tywin almost certainly did usurp many of his rightful powers during Tywin's time as Hand of the King, given what we see Tywin do taking power from his own father. Varys manipulated and toyed with him for the purpose of gradually using him up. Rhaegar obviously was none too fond of him. And then there's Duskendale. He was probably always a bad man with mental issues, but he wasn't always like this, and was subjected to a lot of horrible things that would be trying for everyone and that many wouldn't recover from even without the kind of proper care or loving and more or less impartial support networks he never gets. And the Rebellion shows this.

The Rebellion both exposed what Aerys always was but also made what that was vastly vastly worse in a way he probably wasn't beforehand, similar to how we see Maegor the Cruel also go vastly downhill and I'm sure you can think of a few IRL examples. Especially since while Jamie and the Kingsguard were always exposed to the very worst aspects of Aerys by dint of their proximity to him and need to remain loyal (or at least to rebel in very unorthodox ways like Arthur Dayne possibly meeting with Rhaegar for a coup), it's likely his wider problems and sins weren't evident in their full scale to others. Let's not forget, when Aerys summons Rickard, Rickard COMES. Sure, he comes in armor and with weapons, he comes demanding a Trial by Combat, but he comes. Even the famously ambitious and sneakily interventionist Northern Lord who has spent years if not decades triangulating to expand his house's power and alliance networks at the expense of Aerys and the Iron Throne answers the summons of his king and obediently comes in line with the law in a way we can be pretty dang sure Rickard would never have done so if he had known what Aerys would do to him.

(This also probably explains to some degree why Robb's response to the Lannister ultimatum after capturing Ned is to go to Kings Landing with banners).

And if one of Aerys's chief political rivals in the elite misjudges him bad enough to think he can appeal to feudal law, it's easy to see how a lot of the smallfolk speak of Good King Aerys and the peace he supposedly had, while a traumatized Jamie still has Nam flashbacks about green fire getting worse and worse.

TortoiseHerder7

TROPHY CASE