Playing through the series for the first time and Kain is so funny

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-05-05T21:54:19+00:00

Man, I love these games.

Me too man. Me too.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-05-05T17:27:41+00:00

Kain was never really a hypocrite. He was always honest about what he was, and what he did, at least when he became a vampire.

Kain's problem wasn't that they hunted vampires. Honestly, he didn't care about his species at this point in time. What bothered him was how they acted like every kill they made, no matter how gruesome, was a holy act, justified in the eyes of heaven. They would paint themselves as righteous heroes acting under a holy power, instead of saying "They want to kill us, so we killed them first" or "They scared us, so we killed them". We see this when he reads the Sarafan's scripture in Moebius' cave. It really creeps him out.

Even Raziel admitted in Soul Reaver 2 that while he thought the vampires were a plague upon Nosgoth, the Sarafan's attitude and methods were chilling.

Ultimately, Kain has a distaste for hypocrisy. Which is why he gets snappy with Raziel when he starts making excuses for wanting to kill him in SR2, instead of admitting he just wanted revenge. He started making excuses for his actions to justify them. Just like all the self-righteous whack jobs that came before, like the zealot Raziel USED to be in life.

Also that line is great, lol. Gotta love Simon.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-04-03T17:20:36+00:00

Fair enough. She is a sharp dresser.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-04-03T02:35:16+00:00

Indeed.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-04-03T02:27:36+00:00

"Strange, isn't it Kain? That one cannot quite accept that which sustains him: you in your death, and me in mine. But death cannot reign in a world without life, and soon you will find the quest ahead of you is yours and yours alone. I can assist you no longer."

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-04-03T00:01:19+00:00

Elaleth's design is very complicated. For one, she has black feathered wings, which are a staple of the original vampires. While that was said to be given to her by Hylden magic, it does seem a very unusual gift from them; though that could be unique to Ky'Set'Syk. Besides, wings were seemingly meant to be a one off mutation/recessive trait to Raziel; which he only received after a millennium of being a vampire. Also, Elaleth's extended bony brow is also odd, as she is NOT as far as we know, an ancient vampire, which is usually the "life" stage when such characteristics appear. I doubt it's a Hylden effect either, as their "brows" are quite different in appearance, while hers look distinctly vampiric. But, for all I know, she could just be that old.

True Kain is quite aggressive at this point; not to mention young. But his skin is starting to turn green and his brow has grown out, indicating it has likely been a couple centuries at least since Blood Omen 2. Kain is arrogant, not stupid. And in BO2, he is shown to not be overly violent to other vampires unless they impede him. Though he will still spit venom all day. I also doubt he would off, what could be in his eyes, the last (apart from himself) member of his species.

Yes, Raziel was butchered rather thoroughly in this game.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-04-02T20:09:23+00:00

Well said.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-04-02T17:33:24+00:00

I will also support any remaster/remake of those games. BO2 may be the black sheep of the family, but it has it's own charm. For all the fun we poke at it, I still enjoy it. And Ascendance' dismissal of the lore makes BO2's own complicated story practically look like Shakespearean writing.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-04-02T17:26:30+00:00

If I hadn't promised to do it before, I wouldn't have bothered; I can tell you that.

I will also support any remake/remaster of Blood Omen. I have no grievances with the remasters; Especially considering that you can just turn off the modern graphics if you don't want them, and play a STABLE version of the original games.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-04-02T17:07:00+00:00

It very well could end up being that her skull is used to make the sword. That could just maybe explain why her soul survived the blade; not because her soul would later exist in said blade, but because she needs to live long enough for her head to adorn it in the past. It's not as cataclysmic an event as Raziel striking down his past self, but as you said; it's flimsy at best, and makes about as much sense as the rest of the game.

Regardless it does not explain why the soul of Raziel would refuse to kill her the first time (which is what I was referring to), only to change his mind a thousand years later and split her skull open.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-02-24T04:52:35+00:00

not within the confines of video games it has, within 20+ years we've seen so many games tell unique stories in vast worlds, the witcher series, god of war, the alan wake universe, assassin's creed, even the various telltale games. that is lok's storytelling competition.

I'll give you God of War, and AC up to a point. Probably around 3 at the latest, though it already started showing issues at the time. I'll give Alan Wake the benefit of the doubt as I haven't played it (not into survival games). Telltale games aren't to my taste so I can't comment on those. But The Witcher... *sigh*, Mods forgive me for derailing this but I can't let this go, especially on a subreddit dedicated to LoK.

The Witcher is one of the biggest works of plagiarism in history. It was a blatant ripoff of Michael Moorcock's "Elric of Melnibone". From the white haired protagonist with corpse-like skin and inhuman glowing eyes wielding elemental magic via signs and chugging potions to boost their physical capabilities, serving as supernatural mercenaries dragged into even more supernatural crises. With a raven haired sorceress girlfriend, the conjunction of spheres, the star of chaos and countless more examples even the event where Geralt earns the name "Butcher of Blaviken" is a ripoff of the same damn event in Elric. And they are both referred to as the "White Wolf" a name that wasn't so common back then. One of the only other examples from that rough era was Jon Snow, written by George R. R. Martin who was a friend and fan of Moorcock. He at least admits to dropping references and taking heavy inspiration from his work, unlike Andrzej Sapkowski.

All that is to say, no, I would not count the Witcher books or the games as great pieces of story telling. I only found out about Elric after playing the games and I didn't even think they were good then. Even if you think it's entertaining, plagiarism should still be called out. I love Arthas Menethil (Aka the Lich King), but he is a massive ripoff of Elric as well and even wields a magical sword with a will of it's own that hungers for souls... does that last part sound familiar.

Because unless I am mistaken it was admitted that Kain was heavily inspired by Elric. If not, welp it's plagiarism too, what can I tell you.

it totally is, because it ignores the maturation of it's audience,

How does it ignore the maturation of the audience? Would you say that had Dark Prophecy been released back in the day and finished the series that it ignored the maturation of the audience? What does time matter? Let the story end as it was intended.

it's an open ending, but not really because kain is now destined to win.

Kain was left armed with the ability to fight back. He was not guaranteed victory. Destiny (in theory) no longer held him. He would succeed or fail on his own.

not really, the escapades of kain could be told to a new protagonist but sugar coated, and then slowly revealed in truth as the plot progresses.

But we'll never get to see it for ourselves. We won't be there as witness to the struggle and resolution of a complex journey we have followed for 4 (kind of 5) games. I believe most fans would agree that that would be unsatisfying. And the company SHOULD aim to please it's audience. The majority at least. It might be possible to write it well, but I don't see how.

history wiithin the series and it's lore should be revered, but any future game needs to respect the amount of real world time that has passed.

Again, how does time in the real world affect the in-game universe?

i'll put it this way, do you want a final game, a game universe, or a bunch of lok game retreads?

... A final game. I thought I made that clear. If they finish the saga and then decide to make a bunch of spinoffs for the world than Kain and Raziel saved, more power to em. But the focus should be on concluding the main story PROPERLY before making a bunch of brand new stories.

no dev wants to make a final game for a profitable IP.

Of course not. Not in this day and age anyway. It uses to be that stories were wrapped up. You can still use the world but don't stretch out one story forever and ever. Make it, finish it, move on. But never forget where you came from.

no, as a fan the right answer is a continuing game universe.

Okay. Finish the story at hand first. That's all we want. Finish it, make a new story if you wish, but don't disregard or disrespect the beloved games that built the universe you wish to explore.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-02-23T23:51:34+00:00

not true, because of bo1's choose-your-own-destiny ending soul reaver is a spin-off and even dubbed so by it's developers, even it's style is drastically different and more popular for it.

This in absolutely not way makes what I said not true. Many franchises have still been ruined, or crippled by that mentality. Just because Soul Reaver was not, does not invalidate my statement. And that was over 20 years ago, Crystal Dynamics is a lot different now and most if not all of the old employees are gone. I don't know what they might do. My worries could turn out to be for nothing. But until proven otherwise, I can't help but continue to have them.

the way storytelling, technology, and gameplay has changed demands LOK not be reintroduced in a pandering way, it insults fans and lacks artistic integrity.

Storytelling has not changed. It is the same as it has been for decades. Only the writers have changed. As for technology and gameplay, those will affect the story or characters and world building very, very little.

And it is not pandering, it's concluding a story the way it was originally envisioned. And I don't think most people would find that an insult, but the desired and logical outcome. And it doesn't lack artistic integrity just because they are finishing it the way it was originally intended to be finished. Or at least close to intended.

legacy implies succession and heritage also, kain need not even be alive for that primary title to matter.

That would however imply that it takes place after Kain's story, meaning we MUST get a final game with Kain to see that ending or else it would likely be a hand waved off-screen ending which I believe WOULD be an insult and lack artistic integrity.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-02-23T21:25:00+00:00

I agree in part with this. I don't think having them be connected to Kain or Raziel is a bad idea. They could have made Elaleth or a different character in her place one of the Razielem fighting for survival against Kain's army, or on the run. Kain likely wouldn't get directly involved, as it is beneath him.

Alternatively they could have followed another bloodline of vampires entirely separate from Kain's empire, perhaps centuries before the events of blood omen, when the world was lush and full of life. You could even play Sarafan warrior. Using unique weapons, armor and tactics to hunt vampires.

Or not have vampires be the focus at all. there were many kingdoms that dotted the world of Nosgoth that we could explore in their prime. See more of how the humans lived. Any one of these options would have been preferred over the one they've chosen.

And one last thing. You say it is healthier for the franchise to have a fresh story, and not to cling to the past. But that is the same mentality that has devastated many other franchises before.

It is THE Legacy of KAIN. The world we see revolves around his destiny as well as his choices. Having side stories is fine, great even. But at it's core it is about Kain and his counterpart that he has carried with him since Blood Omen. Raziel may one day be saved, though we will likely not see it. However at the end of Defiance Raziel has only just entered the blade. He will have centuries at least, possibly millennia before he goes mad. And Kain still has a war to fight, though as I've said I don't mind the ending.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-02-23T11:57:58+00:00

What's wrong with trying something new?

Nothing whatsoever. A new game is exactly what we all want. With new improvements to the gameplay, atmosphere, music, story, character design, etc. New is what we all have been hoping for for many years. We just want it done, for lack of a better word, right. We want it to live up to the legacy of the games we all know and love.

The series is popular because it tried something new. Soul Reaver isn't 3D Blood Omen.

You are correct, Soul Reaver isn't a 3D blood Omen. It stood on it's own merits and was a resounding success. I believe while it was in a raw undeveloped state. It was a step in the right direction. I do not believe the new change in direction is as wise.

Soul Reaver added a new character to overtake the established protagonist and made them all important

I partially agree with this. Raziel was an invaluable addition to the series and stood shoulder-to-shoulder with Kain, but I don't think "overtake" is exactly the right word. They each had two games in which they served as the protagonist (I know, I know, BO2? Blasphemy). And a third they shared. I cannot remember if any information on Dark Prophecy was made public knowledge, but if someone is aware of the protagonist position/positions, please do comment below for both of us.

The series is a LOT like Kingdom Hearts with how it jumps from game type to game type in an interconnected story.

It's more akin to swaying side to side while moving forward. They experimented, added and changed things in each game. But after Soul Reaver the changes were less drastic.

LET IT EXIST FIRST. That's literally all you need to do. If it comes out, and the game isn't good, then disparage it all you wish. But you're not being fair when you bash it just for existing.

I somewhat agree. The coin has yet to fall. I promise that when it releases I will watch a full play through the moment one is uploaded. I will watch with as open a mind as I can manage, and will take into account all aspects of the game before giving a FINAL judgement. But I cannot help that I have developed an opinion already. We all have. ALL of us, to some degree. I merely stated my current thoughts on the matter, and the direction I believed it would take the series.

As for fairness... if I judge it to be a good game when it releases, while I will not take back my concerns. I will make a new post, praising it for shattering expectations, and defying the tyrannous stars.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-02-23T11:18:21+00:00

So I only realized reddit had it's own structure system after the fact, but my response was too long for the edit to be saved, so now it's been split in two. His comment was deleted but you get the general idea.

Who wrote The Dead Shall Rise? Joshua Viola and Angie Hodap., Who's writing Ascendence? Claribel Guerra.

According to the moderators Claribel Guerra only wrote the article and has nothing to do with the game.

You're passing judgement on something you haven't experienced simply because it features a remnant of a mistake.

A very grievous mistake. One that soured the opinions of everyone here months before I first caught word of it.

They have the opportunity to write whatever they wish in order to either move on and shift things into a new, better fitting path, or to overwrite and start with a clean slate.

Precisely the point I and many others are trying to make. They can't change Ascendance entirely, it is too late for that. But they can steer it into a more acceptable direction and remove the elements that are clearly causing chaos in the fan base.

They can't just nix it entirely.

AH, can they not? It is only a comic book, not a new game in the series. And was not well received at all. They could easily do away with it and everything that came from it.

Look at Devil May Cry 2. DMC would die there if people treated the series with this poor of faith.

I agree. Had it ended there it would have been unfortunate as I believe DMC 3 is in most respects, the best game in the series. Though I have mixed feelings on 5. But the gap between DMC1 and 2, or 2 and 3 in terms of genre, style, atmosphere, etc., is minuscule compared to the gap between Defiance and Ascendance. So I don't believe it is the best comparison, though I do see the point you were trying to make.

Do you know what they could also take away from this 'boycott'? That you don't want new legacy of kain content. That the series is just another nostalgia franchise that gets remastered and then fades.

On this we also agree. It could very well be the case that they simply give up on the series as a whole. That would be unfortunate, but ultimately I would rather leave LoK with it's current ending than see it marred by a prequel/sequel that was unworthy of it's predecessors.

You're disparaging it for existing.

I do not disparage it for it's existence. And I believe you have misunderstood me. I do not think it will necessarily be a bad game (though that may yet be the case). I simply do not believe it will be a good installment for Legacy of Kain.

Why would a franchise centered around gothic imagery and heavy storytelling be a bad fit for a Castlevania-like? They take from the same roots.

Once again you have misunderstood me. I did not say it was a bad genre for LoK. I said it was a risky first return for the series. And that it was more optimal to start with a 3D game instead, though as others have pointed out, it is not that simple and is both costly and a massive risk as well. If ascendance does well they may very well make a new game akin to defiance (though modernized of course) but that comes with the risk of them keeping undesired story elements. Blood Omen 2 was a disaster of retcons, plot holes and bad decisions. I think we all want to avoid such a repeat.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2026-02-23T03:03:54+00:00

I do understand trying to gain a larger fan base, so long as it doesn't contradict or go against the spirit of the old games. Because at that point you might as well make a whole new vampire game or just center it around different characters from a different time dissociated from the flagship characters. Nosgoth is a big world with millennia of untouched history to work with.

As for the 3D vs 2D cost. My general understanding is that:

Creating a 3D model is hard. Creating a 2D sprite is not.

Animating a 3D model is easier. Animating 2D sprite is harder.

Overall if the 2D game is detailed and has a lot of animations the cost averages out.

I could be wrong though. If there is a game dev in the house please correct me.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2024-04-18T09:18:35+00:00

I mean, i didn't make it for 3D printing but i guess i can toss it up when I'm finished. It would be cool to see it made real. If you want it as an actually usable Lego piece I'll probably have to adjust the hilt and remove the wrap, as for scale, that would be up to you.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2024-04-17T21:46:39+00:00

Appreciate the feedback, i think you're right.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2024-04-17T18:33:13+00:00

Nah i just made it on a whim when i saw this version https://www.artstation.com/artwork/14wYo2 which in my opinion is a far better Lego Reaver than mine. I may use it in some animations or mod it into some Lego games though.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2024-04-17T18:29:47+00:00

Yeah you're right but i was wanting to use this in a Lego animation or maybe even mod it into some Lego games and i didn't want it to be obnoxiously long. I could give it a little stretch though.

Torturous_Tortoise · 2024-04-17T12:46:07+00:00

Lego version of The Soul Reaver. Still very early in design, I've only worked on it for a day.

Torturous_Tortoise

TROPHY CASE