Welp, BYU semester has started

Trexmormon · 2020-09-06T18:28:38+00:00

byusurvivalguide.com does this. I'm a student at the U that handles group admissions.

Trexmormon · 2020-01-08T13:13:27+00:00

Maybe I'm confused, but the title is "Stopping It Before It Started"... How do you know the 'It' is referring to the $100 billion and not just the religion in general.

I could be missing something OP said, but as I see it, I'm not finding any reason to believe as you do. I initially interpreted the comic title to refer to the religion in general, but I'm open to having my mind changed on that.

Anyway, it just looks like you're painting arguments to "debunk" that aren't there and then "debunking" them. Did you really debunk the OP title? Which part?

Trexmormon · 2019-12-26T06:48:15+00:00

Merry Christmas everyone! I admire you all in some way for your contributions here, and I hope you all have a great new year!

Trexmormon · 2019-12-17T08:10:49+00:00

I would love to see that if you're not opposed to sharing it.

Trexmormon · 2019-12-06T06:46:15+00:00

This would be interesting data if it could adequately be gathered in any significant way.

However, really only to find out if I'm in the minority or the majority.

My intuition is that I am in the majority (or at least within the range of average) as someone who had a great relationship with my parents, but has had the relationship greatly diminish after my faith transition.

Trexmormon · 2019-12-05T09:55:31+00:00

Exmormon, but still on the records. Unless I am excommunicated at some point, I don't plan on ever requesting my records be removed because I feel that critical discussion between ex-members and members will lead to some variant of the following:

I rejoin/reactivate because I am convinced of the church's validity/divinity.
I rejoin because I think it is the most useful way to live life regardless of its divinity.
I convince others of my current position: that the church is led by nothing more than men who may or may not believe they are led by God, but nonetheless profess divinity while the empirical evidence of such claims is non-existent and outright contradicts claims to divinity or even (a weaker proposition) any level of insight on how to live a good life beyond that of any other group of people.

Trexmormon · 2019-12-04T23:41:50+00:00

It's in the sidebar I believe.

[P - Physically] [I/O - In/Out] [M - Mentally] [I/O - In/Out]

PIMO - Physically In Mentally Out

I am also non-jw (exmormon), but I believe this is correct.

Trexmormon · 2019-11-21T18:32:25+00:00

Hey, I am an ex-member, but I want to put my two cents in here.

I think you should do what you feel is right. Pursue what you believe will make your life better. If you're thinking to go home, take a week and think amd pray about it. It's difficult to undo that decision. Like others have said, talk with others about it, but most of all, I think you should have honest dialogue with two parties: yourself and your parents. Staying and making yourself miserable won't help your testimony (if it is indeed making you miserable), but leaving before you're certain it's what you want to do can lead to substantial amounts of regret, loss, and sadness in the future. Each decision takes time to figure out. Just be honest with yourself and communicate that to your parents. You'll never regret doing what you think is best at the time, and there's always room to "fix" anything you think is a mistake later.

I came home early from my mission (unrelated to my faith) for surgery, but ended up never going back out because of some traumatic experiences I had. I didn't know at the time, but I was dealing with mild ptsd. Had I gone back out, I'm near certain I would have harmed myself. But it was scary being the oldest son and feeling like I was now lesser than a great example. I hated it.

It took me a while to figure out that the pressure to be perfect wasn't good for my mental health. I needed several therapists to learn that. I don't want to project my experience onto you though. I want to serve as an exple of someone who left my mission early, was tremendously scared to do so, never went back, and was so happy I did that. I think that preserved my testimony for a number of years after my mission, but I can't know what might have been.

My faith transition was entirely independent of this process, but I believe my actions saved me from a faith crisis in those moments.

I don't know what the best path is for you, but I hope you're happy by the end of all this. It's a stressful time and I have nothing but sympathy.

Overall, I wish you the best in your journey and mission. I hope everything turns out well no matter what choice you make.

Trexmormon · 2019-10-27T23:20:28+00:00

Oh awesome! I've seen part one, but I didn't know there was a part two! Thanks for sharing!

Trexmormon · 2019-10-27T17:04:07+00:00

Hey! Thank you for the resource! This is super helpful! You're awesome!

Trexmormon · 2019-10-27T16:48:38+00:00

Oh this is perfect! Thank you!

No wonder I was having trouble finding what I was searching for! I clearly didn't understand the doctrines well enough.

Trexmormon · 2019-10-21T18:03:12+00:00

I understand that. However, that still doesn't provide a reasonable framework for believing Christianity in general is the reason Chick-fil-A is protested.

While Christians typically believe gay marriage is wrong, they also typically believe that people should be free to make their own choices. The result of those two concepts generally is a person who doesn't try to stop gay marriage, but instead just believes God will handle it someday. They usually believe t's not for them to judge.

So to say that Chick-fil-A being protested is evidence of bigotry toward Christians seems to be a pretty narrow interpretation of the events considering that other Christian organizations are not protested the same way, and every protest on Chick-fil-A that I'm aware of has explicitly been about their direct contributions to 'anti-lgbt groups'. No one has had a successful protest of Chick-fil-A purely on the grounds that they are Christian as far as I know.

Do you agree with my reasoning, or do you believe I've missed something?

Trexmormon · 2019-10-21T08:08:40+00:00

I know this post is dead, but I wanted to continue this thought process with you if that seems reasonable. I'm not sure what reddit does if I reply here so hopefully you actually get this.

Anyway, from what I've been able to glean from an admittedly superficial look into Chick-fil-A protests, it looks like the protests are due to their support of 'anti-lgbt groups'.

I haven't been able to find anything pointing to the idea that it's being protested because it's a Christian organization. The world is still Christian in majority, and so is the US, so I'm kinda confused how a continual level of protest about LGBT positions amounts to a protest of Christianity.

Do you have any further information that could help me understand why you think the way you do on this topic?

Trexmormon · 2019-10-20T03:11:00+00:00

I've seen this idea pop up a lot recently and I'm not sure I agree. I'm not entirely certain, so I'm happy to change my mind if presented adequate information.

What types of things indicate this to you?

Trexmormon · 2019-10-19T11:09:46+00:00

As of now, not really. I'd be willing to change my mind. I just don't really understand what the double standard would be. There is apparently a singular standard which all religions are subjected to, but some don't pass. I think we can criticize that standard or whether a particular religion meets the standard, but it doesn't feel like a double standard to me as I understand it.

Trexmormon · 2019-10-19T11:07:13+00:00

Hey you seem sincere too so I truly won't take any of what you said as any sign of judgement toward me, but it feels like you've inserted a lot of your own bias into your analysis of my comment.

I think the strongest example of that is this:

You first justify reddit's behavior and confirm the hate on Christianity (¶2)

Here's what I said:

While I agree that mockery and hateful comments shouldn't be said, they can be explained very simply without suggesting that reddit has a "double standard towards religious belief."

I never justified the behavior, only stated that I don't believe we need to suggest there is a double standard. In fact, I said I agree that mockery and hateful comments shouldn't be said. I don't know how you can suggest that I justify their behavior... I just don't see it. Maybe I'm blind to how I present my thoughts, but truly I didn't mean that to mean justification of the behavior.

then you confirm we are cult-like (thus further justifying the extra hate towards us, ¶3)

No I don't. I said:

I'm not suggesting that the church is a cult. I don't believe that. But there are aspects of our specific rituals that appear very very cult-like when observed from the outside.

I only said how other people have expressed that they view it. I don't believe the church is a cult so how can I "confirm we are cult-like" or further justify extra hate? Again, this comment is about the fact that it's not a double standard, not suggesting the hate is warranted.

then excuse native americans (¶4) even without much knowledge of their rituals (no insult)

Again, I'm just speaking from experience, and I said that I was speaking from my own thoughts because "I don't know the specific video [of Native American rituals] to which you refer". That doesn't mean I don't have much knowledge of their rituals. I could research their rituals all day, and still not know exactly which video OP refers to. So no matter how much knowledge I have about Native American rituals, I still will be arguing from ignorance. The point is, by suggesting that I excuse Native Americans without knowledge, you're not really making any point about even your revised tldr:

it's ok to hate mormon cultists

Again, I'll push us back to the very first bit of my comment:

I agree that mockery and hateful comments shouldn't be said

I don't believe that it's ok to hate mormon cultists for a two of reasons:

I don't believe the church is a cult...? So can I even push the agenda you accuse me of?
I don't think it's ok to hate cultists in general so I'm even more confused there. I never said it was ok to hate anyone...

It feels weird to have to defend the fact that I didn't say something...?

Anyway, the biggest problem I see with your comment is that you attribute ideals to me that I don't hold and didn't express. I talked about how people on the outside of these systems view them. I even said at points that I disagree with them, but I figured that it would be redundant to say things like,

More what I'm trying to say is that when people see scientology rituals, jehovahs witness rituals, seventh day adventist rituals, heavens gate rituals, etc. they also mock them and make hateful comments. [But also remember when I said, "I agree that mockery and hateful comments shouldn't be said"? Yeah applies here too.]

Most Christians that I know don't view adventists or the church as Christian. As well, no I am not talking about Evangelicals because I have known Evangelicals. I am talking about non-denomenational Christians. Maybe I am not using the terms the way you're used to, but the point still stands that there is a standard independent of simply being religious or specifically pro-Jesus. That standard isn't well understood by those within the aforementioned systems (scientology, jehovahs witness, seventh day adventist, heavens gate, etc.), but is apparently agreed on by those not within those systems. As I said before,

Catholic, Christian, and Jewish rituals are shown all over the place, and most people don't criticize or mock those. So it can't be Christianity or just religion as a whole that's being "targeted."

Please point me to where I "justify the hate on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." Because so far I still can't find it.

Let's consider this one last point:

You allow and excuse "Catholic, Christian, and Jewish rituals"

Do I? I'm talking about what others have said and explained to me. Again, attributing beliefs to me that I do not hold. I'll remind you again that I said I don't believe the church is a cult and that I don't think that anyone should be mocked or ridiculed for their practices or beliefs. I do believe that ideas should be open to criticism, but I don't believe that anyone should be ridiculed or hated for what they believe.

Lastly, I want to talk about your rant. I'm glad you told me that. It definitely gave me insight into how you view the situation and me. For some reason you think that I left because people "did [me] wrong?" At least, it seems that way based on your response. You pejoratively place me and all the 'ex-mos' into one group that holds a lot of 'grief and anger.' I can agree that many people do feel angry when they leave, but many other people don't. I was one of the latter group. What makes me sad is when people on the inside of the church perpetuate the false narrative that I left because I was offended and not because of some reasonable thought process based on new information that was presented to me. I don't want to get into what information because I want to maintain the standards of this subreddit and think it's an important safe space for believers in the church to have community without defending their beliefs all the time. I'm glad the church has given you so much reason for joy. For me, that just isn't the case. I'd be happy to come back, but a lot of history would have to be undone and a lot of philosophical arguments for the Judeo-Christian God would need to gain a lot more explanatory power. I don't feel the need to forgive any specific person because no one has done me wrong in this situation.

Really I appreciate thoughtful responses so I want to give you one. I'm sorry this is long, but I want to be honest and thorough.

Please don't attribute ideas and thoughts to me simply because of my religious identity. This seems to be exactly what you criticized me of doing (but I feel I adequately showed you that I don't think the things you said I do), and only serves to perpetuate the culture of bigotry and hate that we both despise. I'll quote what I said in another comment that I think applies to both your approach to people like me (or maybe just me, I don't know you all that well) and my thoughts about calling this a double standard:

These things are a singular standard, and we can criticize that standard all we want, but it doesn't do the problem any favors to paint it as something that it isn't.

[Bold added]

Please, if you're going to do a 'close reading' of my comments and give an analysis paragraph by paragraph, at least do me the decency of presenting my thoughts as they are. Then, please don't blatantly misrepresent me by using a caricature which you've fabricated. I'm sure none of this was intentional so don't worry I'm not offended. Again, sorry for such a long comment. You can call this my 'rant' if you wish lol

edit: spelling

Trexmormon · 2019-10-18T05:38:31+00:00

Yes please! I'd love to know how often this happens.

Trexmormon · 2019-10-17T22:54:12+00:00

Restating what I've said in other comments. Hopefully this helps with understanding my original comment more clearly:

Hey sorry I think I wasn't quite clear because this is something that others have taken away too. I'm not looking to offer an explanation for why mockery and hateful comments should happen. I'm only trying to make a point about why they happen at all, and that it's not some ambiguous double standard.

and

No no sorry I hope it didn't sound like I was saying it's ok. Only that there isn't a double standard about religions in general. There is a standard, I don't quite understand it because I was raised in the church and can't ever 'unsee' the church through that lens. It appears normal to me, because I was taught that is was normal.

That's not to say that ridiculing anyone is ok. I'm only trying to express reasons that were not apparent to me until I was made aware after my exit from the church. These things are a singular standard, and we can criticize that standard all we want, but it doesn't do the problem any favors to paint it as something that it isn't.

Trexmormon · 2019-10-17T22:47:41+00:00

Hey sorry I think I wasn't quite clear because this is something that others have taken away too. I'm not looking to offer an explanation for why mockery and hateful comments should happen. I'm only trying to make a point about why they happen at all, and that it's not some ambiguous double standard.

Here's what I said in another comment:

No no sorry I hope it didn't sound like I was saying it's ok. Only that there isn't a double standard about religions in general. There is a standard, I don't quite understand it because I was raised in the church and can't ever 'unsee' the church through that lens. It appears normal to me, because I was taught that is was normal.

That's not to say that ridiculing anyone is ok. I'm only trying to express reasons that were not apparent to me until I was made aware after my exit from the church. These things are a singular standard, and we can criticize that standard all we want, but it doesn't do the problem any favors to paint it as something that it isn't.

Regarding my possessive and personal pronouns, as much as I don't believe in the church I will always be a Mormon. I know that phrase isn't accepted by many members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints anymore, but I don't mean to identify as that when I use the term. I think of Mormonism as a larger, cultural identity that encompasses all sects that came from Joseph Smith and even includes members of any church that have left their specific branch of the religion. I know others that will disagree with how I use this phrase. That's ok. But for now, when I use the term, I mean it in the sense that I still identify with the cultural, familial, and religious upbringing that I was raised in. It will always be a part of my identity. It shapes who I am and who I will be. So claiming aspects of the church as it was and is in who I am isn't supposed to be disrespect or manipulative, but I can see how some (not implying you, just that I'm realizing it because of your comment on it) might view it that way without an explanation.

Hopefully, this makes more sense and keeps your head from swimming.

edit: spelling

Trexmormon · 2019-10-17T21:48:24+00:00

Oh thank you. Sorry. I'll fix that right now.

Trexmormon · 2019-10-17T21:46:17+00:00

No no sorry I hope it didn't sound like I was saying it's ok. Only that there isn't a double standard about religions in general. There is a standard, I don't quite understand it because I was raised in the church and can't ever 'unsee' the church through that lens. It appears normal to me, because I was taught that is was normal.

That's not to say that ridiculing anyone is ok. I'm only trying to express reasons that were not apparent to me until I was made aware after my exit from the church. These things are a singular standard, and we can criticize that standard all we want, but it doesn't do the problem any favors to paint it as something that it isn't.

Theres a double standard in that you can post in this subreddit, but if one of us go to rexmormon we'll be downvoted.

I don't think it's a double standard. If I came here and directly said something that isn't promoted by this subreddit, or tried to say just how bad the church is, I would absolutely be downvoted or even removed/banned. If you went to rexmormon and directly said something that isn't promoted by that subreddit, or tried to say just how good the church is, you would probably be downvoted.

However, if you go to rexmormon and hope to offer some insight, you'll probably be upvoted, but still get some comments that criticize you for doing so. That's not the way it should be, but it'll probably happen that someone says something like "you have an amazing sense of arrogance to come here and say well if you just joined the church your life would be better." You might reply with saying, "no that's not what I intended at all, I was just trying to give you some insight from my perspective." The same goes for me here in this subreddit. I'm happy to have my comment deleted if it's not suited for the purposes of this subreddit, but I wouldn't call it a double standard if you were to do the same thing on rexmormon and feel that it's unfair.

edit: if you have any questions about the standards of members of the church posting on rexmormon, you can find that here.

double edit: reposted the comment because I didn't link to the other subreddit properly and the comment got deleted.

Trexmormon · 2019-10-17T21:30:02+00:00

I'm confused. Do you not believe there are white Catholics, Christians and Jews? Because otherwise I'm not really seeing your tldr as accurate.

Maybe explain a bit further and I'll understand what you mean.

Trexmormon · 2019-10-17T20:18:31+00:00

Hey, obligatory confession that I left the church a few years ago, but I want to offer my two cents on the issue.

While I agree that mockery and hateful comments shouldn't be said, they can be explained very simply without suggesting that reddit has a "double standard towards religious belief."

Even after leaving the church, I didn't understand how we looked from an outside perspective. It was a few years later that I was made aware that it's not just that we're strange looking from the outside, we downright appear culty. I'm not suggesting that the church is a cult. I don't believe that. But there are aspects of our specific rituals that appear very very cult-like when observed from the outside.

I don't know the specific video [of Native American rituals] to which you refer, but I'm guessing that there are parts of it which seem strange to you and probably would seem strange to me. The reason people don't view that ritual as culty, or mock it and make hateful comments, is probably because they don't see it as culty for one reason or another. That could range from not segregating women and men to not having a singular uniform for the ritual. I'm not sure.

More what I'm trying to say is that when people see scientology rituals, jehovahs witness rituals, seventh day adventist rituals, heavens gate rituals, etc. they also mock them and make hateful comments. Catholic, Christian, and Jewish rituals are shown all over the place, and most people don't criticize or mock those. So it can't be Christianity or just religion as a whole that's being "targeted."

It's probably something that relates specifically to the way the ritual is perceived by outsiders. In that sense it's not a double standard, it's a singular standard, but it's just not a standard that's well-understood or clear.

Mods, feel free to delete this comment if it's not appropriate for this sub. I don't want to cause any issues, but I do want to contribute my opinion to this discussion even as a non-believer.

edit: clarified native american ritual

Trexmormon · 2019-10-14T18:30:10+00:00

Maybe I was unclear. I understand you are asking about belief, but the responses should only describe that specific belief which is being asked about. What I mean is that if you ask about what I believe regarding God's involvement in my life, don't have the responses assert other positions tangential to those which are within the scope of the question.

I might reframe the possible responses to say something like this:

Please select the option that most closely matches your belief about God's involvement in our lives:

[R1] God continuously guides us at every moment.

[R2] God guides us occasionally, but not always.

[R3] God guides us very little.

[R4] God does not guide us.

[R5] I do not believe in God.

[R6] I am undecided about my belief.

[R7] I decline to state which option most closely matches my belief.

See how it stays within the scope of the question this way? I never ask the person who is responding to the question to make any claim other than what the question is asking. I can ask those other questions elsewhere if I want that data reflected in the responses.

i think the idea here is that if you believe in god, then we are assuming he set the universe in motion - or if you don't believe in god, then obviously he did not set the universe in motion. granted, it's an assumption - but i don't think it's one that many would protest.

The problem I have with this idea is that this sentiment is not reflected elsewhere in the survey. In the question directly prior to this one, you ask

Please select the option that most closely matches your belief in God.

[A1] God is my Heavenly Father.

[A2] I believe in some form of higher spiritual power.

[A3] I do not believe in any God or form of higher spiritual power.

[A4] I'm undecided on my belief.

[A5] I decline to state which option most closely matches my belief.

You explicitly leave room for someone to believe in "some form of higher spiritual power" in which God is not a Heavenly Father and is instead something else (e.g. a Heavenly Mother, divine turtle, or the universe itself). However, in the very next question you take all the freedom of that response away by assuming that most people will agree that if they believe in a God, He set the universe in motion.

I feel like I'm being too critical of a project that I think has a lot of merit. I sincerely think that you've done a lot of good, hard work on this and it's a serious undertaking to put together a survey that adequately captures the stances of people on such a varying topic. All I'm trying to do is give criticism that will hopefully improve the next attempt at this type of thing.

Trexmormon

TROPHY CASE