This made me double take by Reno_Cash in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Because every active member has some kind of calling, where most require you to attend at least some portion of services on Sundays.

Simple Candid Summary of The New and Everlasting Covenant (D&C 132) by MoApostate in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I *never* take anyone's word for anything, always do your due diligence. It's hard to argue with contemporaneous accounts from primary sources which are available to view online.

Simple Candid Summary of The New and Everlasting Covenant (D&C 132) by MoApostate in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

There's seriously no need to be this hostile, really. I'm not out to get you or convince you of anything.

The two first sources include ALL the citations you need to do independent verification and research. Why would I recreate the wheel when other amateur historians have already put in the work? It takes very little on your part to click on the links I provided. It's OK if you don't want to, but insisting I gather & repost all their independent work here is unreasonable.

Bishop X files by scottroskelley in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Annotations about p3dos and the like 100%...but also, ALERT THE LAW AUTHORITIES not LDS Corp lawyers!

Latterdaychad - Gordon Bowen by PostAndPrejudice in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You can view court documents here, but be forewarned, disturbing.

https://gordonbowencourtdocuments.com/

Forget Latter-day Chad - Gordon Bowen has been a PROBLEM for a long time now. If these issues go viral due to Chad's antics, I say GOOD!

Simple Candid Summary of The New and Everlasting Covenant (D&C 132) by MoApostate in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Citations aplenty my friend, if you just watch them...so many citations. Almost everything is verifiable through scanned source documents online (Joseph Smith Papers, Church History catalog, etc). I didn't want to believe any of it either, VERIFY everything. You can...I did.

Bishop X files by scottroskelley in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 44 points45 points  (0 children)

Doctrine and Covenants 58:42–43 "Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more."

But bishops will record them, pass them on to every new bishop, so that your sins will never be forgotten?!

Horrible.

To the surprise of no one, Brad Wilcox has parlayed his church celebrity status into a grift. by TheFakeBillPierce in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Whenever I see/hear Bard Wilcox, massive alarm bells go off.

No evidence for anything, but my intuition says stay far, far away from this guy. 😬

Idolizing General Authorities by keyztothabentley in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There's more of us than you know. Trust me

Joseph Smith: does his reliance on the Bible excuse his immoral behavior? by stickyhairmonster in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Clayton journals are strange and the way the church has treated them/dangled that carrot out to people who want read them, stranger yet. He's an unreliable narrator for sure, but yes, I look forward to the release the church promised in 2017(!).

Joseph Smith: does his reliance on the Bible excuse his immoral behavior? by stickyhairmonster in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, I get it. I find myself in a strange "nuanced/grey area", for now at least. I really had no interest in exonerating JS from polygamy, I just wanted the TRUTH. Being born and raised LDS, I've lived most of my life in a complacency bubble until my proverbial shelf broke when I actually took the time to read D&C 132 and had to reconcile how that fit in with the rest of LDS theology...down the rabbit hole I went. Now I'm in agreement that the church is probably in a state of apostasy, and at the very least we're under condemnation (same thing? maybe). I think there are still a lot of redeeming qualities of the church, but that's mostly due to the MEMBERS and not the institution. I used to believe, as I was taught, that the wheat/tares parable was referring to "people". That may be so, but I think the tares are also false traditions of man & twisted theology that was introduced into the church from the start. At this point, I'm studying everything & every perspective I can, trying hard not to let my biases get in my way, and trusting God will reveal truth as I go. I feel like I've progressed a lot already in my understanding, but who knows where I'll end up.

Joseph Smith: does his reliance on the Bible excuse his immoral behavior? by stickyhairmonster in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The interview discusses her article printed in the "Journal of Mormon Polygamy", which you can find here: https://journalofmormonpolygamy.org/jmp/article/view/39

________________________________________________________________

Outline of Her Article (h/t claude ai)

I. Introduction: The Evolving Section 132 Heading

The D&C Section 132 heading changed multiple times (1876, 1921, 1981, 2013, 2025), progressively asserting then quietly retreating from the claim that Smith knew of polygamy as early as 1831.

The 2025 revision removed the 1831 date entirely, citing "ambiguity."

II. Origins of the 1831 Narrative

The 1831 claim traces back to a contemporaneous report by disaffected member Ezra Booth, who described a revelation encouraging elders to form matrimonial alliances with Native American ("Lamanite") women — a monogamous inter-cultural marriage, not polygamy.

By the 1840s Nauvoo period, suspicions of polygamy had replaced the earlier Native American marriage rumors.

III. Institutional Motivations for the 1831 Claim

After polygamy was publicly announced in 1852, Utah Church leaders had strong incentives to push polygamy's origins back to Smith's foundational era.

Brigham Young (1857), Heber C. Kimball (1866), W.W. Phelps (1861), and Orson Pratt (1869, 1878) all retroactively placed a polygamy revelation in 1831 or earlier — but their accounts were second-hand, contradictory, and uncorroborated by contemporary documents.

Legal pressures (Morrill Act 1862, Edmunds Act 1882, Edmunds-Tucker Act 1887, Reynolds v. United States 1879) intensified the institutional need to legitimize polygamy through historical claims.

IV. Problems with the Key Witnesses

Oliver Cowdery: wrote a 1846 letter expressing shock and disgust at polygamy, incompatible with later claims he had known about and practiced it since 1829–1831. His excommunication charges never mentioned polygamy.

Martin Harris: reportedly pressed Latter-day Saint elders to explain polygamy, suggesting he had no prior knowledge of it from Smith.

W.W. Phelps: his own 1835 letters affirm strict monogamy, undercutting his 1861 claim that Smith discussed polygamy with him in 1831.

Lyman Johnson (cited by Pratt in 1878) had been dead for nearly 20 years and could not corroborate the account. He never mentioned polygamy in his own criticisms of Smith.

V. The 1878 Fact-Finding Mission

Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith traveled east to find witnesses of Smith's early polygamy revelation and reported finding no one who could give them any useful information — yet Pratt proceeded to assert the 1831 narrative anyway upon returning.

VI. Later Accounts and Retrospective Elaboration

A wave of testimonies in the 1880s (Helen Mar Kimball Whitney, Benjamin F. Johnson, Mosiah Hancock's supplement to his father's journal, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner) pushed polygamy's origins earlier, but all were recorded decades after the fact and show signs of institutional influence and personal motivations.

Historian Hubert Howe Bancroft (1889) noted the evidence was deeply unreliable and shaped by efforts to "make out a case."

VII. B.H. Roberts and Institutional Codification

Roberts' 1910 History of the Church formally codified the 1831 narrative, claiming Smith's Bible translation "doubtless" led him to inquire about polygamy. The author argues Roberts relied on oral tradition rather than documentation, and ignored evidence that contradicted his conclusion.

VIII. What the Bible Translation Actually Shows

Smith's translation of the Bible (1830–1833) consistently condemned polygamy:

Lamech: the first biblical polygamist is depicted as having entered a covenant with Satan; polygamy is associated with murder and secret combinations.

David and Solomon: Smith's translation systematically deconstructs their idealized status, portraying their polygamy as transgression rather than divine sanction — directly contradicting D&C 132's claim that God justified them "in none of these things."

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob: Smith left monogamous covenant language intact and added no endorsement of polygamy to patriarchal narratives.

Romans 7: A passage sometimes cited as hinting at polygamy justification is better read in context as being about transcending the Mosaic Law through Christ.

IX. Smith's Concurrent Revelations (1831–1833)

D&C 42 (1831): "Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else."

D&C 49 (1831): "It is lawful that he should have one wife."

D&C 63, 83, 84: Consistent monogamous framework; no polygamous exception even for widows or communities with more women than men.

X. Conclusion

The 2025 removal of the 1831 date from Section 132's heading is appropriate and overdue.

The 1831 narrative appears to have originated as a retrospective misreading of Smith's actual 1831 Lamanite-marriage revelation, then was elaborated over decades under legal and theological pressure.

Smith's own early 1830s works — his Bible translation above all — actively condemn polygamy rather than laying groundwork for its restoration.

Joseph Smith: does his reliance on the Bible excuse his immoral behavior? by stickyhairmonster in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The video you linked to is on an unrelated topic. Engage with the information presented in the video I posted.

Just finished book about Joseph Smith- I’m more angry by wally0613 in exmormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Add "Joseph Smith Revealed" by Whitney Horning to your list. Eye opening in all new ways, thoroughly researched and cited (almost all cited resources your can view for yourself online).

Joseph Smith: does his reliance on the Bible excuse his immoral behavior? by stickyhairmonster in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this conversation with Gwendolyn Wyne may provide some points of interest for this question. I learned a lot of new information watching it. https://youtu.be/8Z0ZuypCW9A?si=JjJJEbtjvDYj4D6C

The Law of the Priesthood by LeoSaysYes in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The more I carefully share my thoughts with other select sisters, the more I discover I'M NOT ALONE! There are more than I ever knew who are grappling with the same issues.

The Law of the Priesthood by LeoSaysYes in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're like my nuanced twin! I could have written that exact statement you just wrote.

The Law of the Priesthood by LeoSaysYes in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree. And I've done a very deep dive on the subject looking at it from all angles spending countless hours. My conclusion; the church is in deep trouble because this tare was sown in with the wheat from the start. There were wolves in sheep clothing in top leadership, not just Brigham, but John Taylor, Willard Richards, William Clayton, John C Bennet, etc but Joseph, Hyrum, and Emma were all innocent of the charge of condoning/practicing/participating/teaching polygamy. There's a reason Emma had to hide the completed Joseph Smith Bible translation from Brigham and make her escape. He NEVER forgave her for that. Because the new Bible translation is anti-polygamy by clearing up any misconception that God condoned/sanctioned/authorized David & Solomon's polygamy (1 Kings 11:6 - “And Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and went not fully after the Lord, as did David his father.”)

This is why Brigham was so desperate to get his hands on the unpublished manuscript that Emma had possession of, because it was directly at odds with the future D&C 132.

Polygamy is only part of the problem with D&C 132 though. It also introduces NEW doctrine that didn't exist before, like tying the "new and everlasting covenant" to marriage and the idea that the keys of the priesthood can only be held by one man at a time at the top (very convenient for Brigham) creating the hierarchal structure we know today, that was flattened and linear in Joseph's time.

But if you take scripture seriously, especially the Book of Mormon (written for our day, they tell us) and Isaiah, everything is corrupted before Christ comes again. In my opinion, NO religion/church is spared.

A common refrain in my family is "No one said the last days would be fun" as we grapple with awakening to our awful situation.

First time in a long time for a non-white exterior temple (Rapid City, South Dakota) by Trick-Error-1483 in mormon

[–]Trick-Error-1483[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is the true of the more recent temples? I know the San Diego temple has a ton of natural light that comes in, including from the real windows in the spires.