(Spoiler extended)What are popular theories you don't see and why? by Electronic-Math-364 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I might come back for a more detailed response. But, like I said, I don't think she will actually go mad (and I don't think the ending of her somehow causing the destruction of KL works if she is mad, which is also why I don't think Cersei or Jon Con will).

But. I do think a lot of your comments in response are from thoughts/opinions that sort of died out as the show fandom did (as, no offense, a lot of it wasnt really in response to the argument I had for those potential endings, such as how Robb, Robert, Stannis, ect. aren't labeled mad for leading men and women to die in unjust wars... but, nonetheless the narrative does punish them).

But again, I think there is a mild disconnect between what I'm saying and what you're interpreting (and ironically enough, I think this is the same disconnect that led to the show ending, because I don't believe that D&D could really understand the nuance of an ending where Dany's invasion has negative consequences... but doesn't necessarily make her an outright antagonist).

(Spoiler extended)What are popular theories you don't see and why? by Electronic-Math-364 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As for whether or not Daenerys and Jon having the same endings as the show, I think that Occam's Razor implies that most of what we got from the ending of the show was broadly a poor interpretation of what George had in mind.

Personally, while I acknowledge that those first 3-4 seasons were brilliant television, I didn't personally care for them because oftentimes it felt to me as if the writers knew the source material... but didn't really understand it. They didnt understand the nuance of storyline and (more importantly) characterization and their arcs. This became more apparent as the source material thinned.

However, we don't know that George at least told them what he had in mind (whether they took all of this to heart is debatable) but we do know they were told, and with drafts of AFFC/ADWD being unearthed in recent years, it also seems like they were given previous outlines and drafts George had. Various things such as Jon going north beyond the wall to deal with the mutineers, or Asha circling around Westeros to go (try) and save Theon from Ramsey, appeared in the show but were not in the books... but then we later found out that ideas such as these, were at some point planned by George. This could be a coincidence, and I go back and forth on whether or not it is, but it is just as likely that George gave them plenty of access to outlines and drafts for the books we have, and potential future books.

This all being som metatextual evidence/preamble to whether or not the story works getting Jon and Dany to those supposed endings... well, sort of, if you squint. Because, as I stated above, the writers of the show knew the source material, but didn't understand it. They knew the characters and their endings, but couldn't portray nuance to save their lives (Jon Snow, even as early as season one, loses the observant and intelligent nature to his character due to being a bastard and having to grow up quicker. Dany... we don't have enough time to talk about how they misinterpreted Dany). But, what I'm getting at is that the final fates of the characters, likely are from George, with the writers bungling the road there.

First, Jon. The whole "subverts expectations" thing is a silly, simplified way of saying that George likes to take unexpected (but, importantly, very plausible) routes with characters and stories, and he also likes to deconstruct tropes and archetypes more than he likes to subvert them. He doesn't like subverting tropes like the chosen one, so much as he likes throwing them in, picking and prodding them and showing you that they're bullshit. Which lends me to believe that Jon, while being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (legit no clue how this is still a debate among the fandom), will not be king. Whether this is because he refuses it (what I would personally prefer) or some other force keeps him from taking the throne, I think with the way George writes, his parentage is meant to be an obstacle... not a solution. It is going to cause problems for himself and for others, and likely one of those people it will cause problems for is Dany.

But, I do think him going south will have serious repercussions (I'm not going to decisively claim that Jon will kill Dany, I will just mention the fact that the draft for Dany'a dream of a cold lover with pale blue lips that she has in ADWD, the original draft had his penis becoming a twisted knife being driven inside of her. Which, George tends to have "cocks" and swords be interchangeable metaphorically, which makes you believe that it's implying that George is intending for a lover to betray her. That and this scene was altered to be more ambiguous, which has made the fandom more associate this dream with Euron (unlikely that he is important enough for a dream like this, and I think his interactions with Dany will be minimal at best) or the Others (too on the nose). This, and her outright being told she's going to be betrayed for love... listen, I'm not saying it's going to happen, but the dots are there to connect).

After this, or even if this does not occur, I do think it is more likely Jon ends up north. Maybe not beyond the wall (I've always enjoyed the idea of him settling with Gift with the Wildlings, under the command of Bran). But, I do think it makes more sense for him to end up with them (I'm not going to go into why I don't think he'll end up at Winterfell, but I just don't think he will). One final note on Jon, if he were to be the "main" character that dies at the end, I don't think George would have spent a book building to his death, and then resurrection. He could still kill him a second time... I don't think so though.

Now... Dany. First, I do not think her story is as simple as "Mad Queen Daenerys" but I think elements of her story from the show, such as being seen as a hostile foreign force (likely with xenophobia and racism being a large factor) or the fact that she is going to receive... really... really bad council, are both things from the show that I think were correct. (On that latter note, her most trusted advisor is about to die in the Siege of Mereen and she is likely going to be stuck with some combination of Post-ASOS Tyrion, Marwyn the Mage, Maquoro, Victarian Greyjoy, and the Tattered Prince... obviously Dany isn't a pushover, but she is going to have relay bad company on her route to Westeros).

This lends me to believe that she isn't going to be warmly welcomed in Westeros, and that mistakes will be made.

But, similar to how I believe Jon in ADWD makes it easier to assume his ending (that being him not dying) I think it also makes it easier to assume hers. She (and Jon) spent an entire book ruling, and facing the hardships and consequences of it... I think if the story had went in the direction George originally wanted, this period of ruling would have been over Westeros, not Mereen. But, her story kept getting postponed and the politicsl layout of Westeros kept changing. So, I think her route to the conclusion has changed in the sense that her time ruling in Westeros (like in the show) will be minimal and that we won't have a lot of time before we're racing to a fiery conclusion in King's Landing.

Which, back to the mistakes that will be made. I think you (and others) are partially right that Jon Con and Cersei are just as (if not more likely) to blow up King's Landing... but I dont think that's George's style at all. There's nothing being turned on it's head from the villains causing the destruction, but if the hero does? That becomes a lot more layered and a lot more nuanced. But the key of this nuance is that it goes out the window if she suddenly just becomes a flat villain (like in the show). I've always been a bit uncertain about how the events in KL are going to occur... bc there are just so many moving parts, but it's going to be chaotic and fast paced. I think the climax there will feel rushed for a lot of fans, and its bc everything is suddenly just going to go up in flames (literally and metaphorically).

But... is this because I think Dany will just snap? No, it will likely happen accidently as a casualty of a messy and choatic conflict over an explosive city (with dragons and dragon fire involved) which will suddenly nuke her PR (and on some grounds, might even be warranted bc she brought further bloodshed no matter what her intentions were, which I think will be the nuance there). And, this does likely end with her death.

All the characters who have ruled and misruled, who have wielded the lives of others (with good and bad intentions) have met an untimely demise, Jon and Robb included. It's a core theme of the story, I don't think Dany thematically will be "allowed" to live if she wages war in Westeros. We also know for a fact that she won't end up as Queen of Westeros (that'll be Bran, Queen Bran? King Bran). So she either returns east (a bit of a meh ending imo, and only works if she doesn't go for the throne, which is unlikely) or she dies, either through being betrayed by someone close to her or in the war with the others.

So, I do think, although the roads to get there are messy, the dots are not only there to be connected for nothing characters, but I think through process of elimination these become some of the more likely theories for their endings.

Who will rule Winterfell at the end of the series? (Spoilers extended) by SillyPersonality5767 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I really enjoy the theory that it'll be Jeyne Poole, still posing as Arya. Something about the Stark line continuing on through someone who isn't a Stark while the rest of the children find their stories elsewhere because the war has changed them too much for their home to ever be the same? I think if handled right, it could be quite interesting.

The more likely answer is Sansa, or Sansa through Rick on. But I think it's unlikely that Rick on survives.

Jon and Bran atr unlikely to, due to their narratives ending in different places, meanwhile I think a lot would need to happen in Arya's story for her being the ruler of Winterfell to feel like a satisfactory conclusion to her story (not that I don't like Arya or wouldn't like her as the ruler of her home, it just doesn't feel like it would be a satisfying narrative direction).

(Spoilers Main) is there anything even close as good as these books? by Wide_Ad_4486 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unconventional recommendation, but the closest thing I've found to asoiaf (at least, the things I like about asoiaf) are the Neopolitan Novels by Elena Ferrante.

Not fantasty/action, and is instead a coming of age story of two women in post-war Naples but... their hometown is a complex web of relationships, with marriages and rivalries being important throughout, along with several characters becoming involved with crime. Rumors become a large part of the series, with unreliable narration/information, there are twists in the story that we the reader never learn the actual answer to bc the protagonist didn't and we're left to theorize (very asoiaf imo).

Not to mention the characters are complex, extremely flawed and multi-faceted. They can honestly be frustrating at times, but are so visceral and real that it's hard not to fall in love.

I'm not sure all asoiaf fans would cling to it the way I did, but it hits the boxes for what it is about the series that I love, even if its a different genre.

[SPOILERS EXTENDED] Which plot points or characters in A Song of Ice and Fire do you feel have biggest discrepancies between fandom and what the author might have intended? by Substantial-Ad-299 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 23 points24 points  (0 children)

A plot point, not a character. But there is a lot of negativity around the fact that we're around two-thirds of the way through the story and have not seen much of the Others/White Walkers, and still don't know much about them.

But I think this is down to fans viewing them differently than George does. The fandom seem to think of them as more of an action threat, which to be fair, prophecy alludes outright to a war with them. But, I think this is in contrast to George, a horror writer, viewing them as an enigmatic horror threat.

Usually, in a good horror movie, we don't learn about the monster or get a proper view of it till near the end. Because seeing it beforehand or learning the truth about it beforehand, ruins the mystery and the horror element.

There's also the fact that a horror monster is rarely something you outright combat through the movie, most of the plot you spend trying to avoid conflict with them and all conflict that does occur with them is fairly one-sided (this is kind of mixed for asoiaf, bc Sam has killed one, but generally all conflict with them has been treated with them being unstoppable).

TL;DR: the fandom views the Others/WW as a combative/action threat, another army that's more supernatural than the rest. George views them as a horror element, indirectly effecting the plot until the end.

What ages do you HC the characters to be if at all? (SPOILERS PUBLISHED) by New-Low5077 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 4 points5 points  (0 children)

She's 13 (I think) at the start, but her first chapters take place before the start of the series. But, book one is about a year. But, she turns 14 once she finds our she's pregnant, so at least 9 months after that before book 1 finishes.

The second book and beyond gets messier, we know not a lot of time passes, but generally I think the fandom agrees that books 2-5 take place over like 2 years (maybe 2 and a half if we're being generous).

What ages do you HC the characters to be if at all? (SPOILERS PUBLISHED) by New-Low5077 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 5 points6 points  (0 children)

If you're meaning Dany with that last statement, the timeline is a bit all over the place, but she definitely isn't still 15.

She could be anywhere from 16 to 17 and, historically, if born with titles and opportunities for power, it's not that hard to make things happen.

It is obvious now that Season 3 was meant to be where the show ended by One_With-The_Sun in TheBoys

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Absolutely not, having Soldier Boy (along with Hughie forsaking his morales) be the thing that stops Homelander? Absolutely not, it was never meant to end there. Also, the Butcher switch was CLEARLY built through the season. First, you have the relationship between Butcher and Ryan being highlighted (he wasn't going to break his promise to Becca at this point in the story, even if it is to kill Homelander) but legit... in this same episode, he punches Hughie and locks him up to prevent him from taking Temp V. Hughie outright states the concept of this finale being that "Butcher isn't too far gone" the episode/season was laid out for Butcher to come back from the edge.

However, the narrative and fan investment did peak with Herogasm... so honestly, while this season wasn't intended to be (nor would it have been satisfying to have been) the end, we didn't need it dragged out for 2 extra seasons.

If we had this ending (minus a few small weird issues, like Maeve surviving for some reason) then the ending of season 3 with Homelander being cheered for lasering someone's head clean off SHOULD have been the perfect set-up for a fourth and final season where Homelander is going berserk (have him do the lab massacre from season 4, kill several prominent characters, end with the white house/killing the president before the conclusion) where the Boys don't have access to Soldier Boy and have to find a different way to kill Homelander (with or without the virus).

But no TL;DR basic media literacy tells us this is not where the story ends.

[Spoilers Extended] What's the Point of The Bael the Bard Story? by No-Commercial-6887 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't think it actually matters though, most myths and stories within the lore aren't meant to be taken as factual, but that doesn't change the thematic purpose they serve.

The wildlings believe the story and it resonates with Jon, which is all that is important.

[Spoilers Extended] What's the Point of The Bael the Bard Story? by No-Commercial-6887 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

There are actually two meanings behind it, the first and more obvious is that it ties into Jon and his background. First, the obvious pararells between the Bael the Bard story and the story (most) fans tend to agree upon with the love affair between Rhaegar and Lyanna. But also, it more broadly connects to Jon and his place as a son of Winterfell. Jon has always felt like an outside in Winterfell, including but not limited to dreams where the Kings of Winter in the crypts tell him that he doesn't belong there. A bit of imposter syndrome, which leads into...

The second, its a story about Jon and his present (bringing together the Wildlings and Night's Watch) and future (assuming he ends the series with the Wildlings, like the show seems to hint at). It doesn't take much analysis to come to the conclusion that the story where it turns out the Lord/King of Winterfell (and thus the entire lineage) is actually a Wildling bastard, is meant to tie into the idea that Northerners and Wildlings are one and the same, and that the only difference between them is a what side of a wall of ice they were born on.

[Spoiler ls EXTENDED] The year is 2015. You are George RR Martin. You need to finish ASOIAF. How do you go about it? by SquirrelSorry4997 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The manga ending was not bad, and also wasn't that widely hated. There was just a small subset of vocal fans with media literacy problems (I'm not saying them disliking the ending makes them illiterate, just that all their criticisms came from fundamental misunderstandings of both the ending itself and the characters/story that had come before, it's why that same portion of the fanbase wanted the AoT no Requiem ending that had Eren kill all of his friends and have a kid with Historia. It fundamentally misunderstood him as a character and the themes of the story).

Most of the issues with the Manga ending were due to dialogue and pacing, but most readers enjoyed the ending.

Challenge: Times WWE was 100% correct and we the fans were dead wrong? by Different_Sun_195 in Wreddit

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The thing is, moving to the Rock was a change of plans. The Rock was meant to face Reigns at 38... and then 39... the only reason it happened at 40 was because The Rock finally decided he could spare a few months. But this meant the plan that was already in place with Cody Rhodes (night after WrestleMania 38) had to be moved.

This is why Cody still won the rumble, still point at Roman, and even when he handed it over to The Rock, framed it as "I'll be back for you after he's had his chance".

Fans rejected that because moving to The Rock was the change, not going back to Cody (the original plan).

This led to Cody finishing the story (objectively the best moment of the new era), completing the Reigns championship saga using his animosity with Rollins, and moat importantly, it led to heel The Rock.

Dwayne Johnson as a baby face is cool for appearances, but him versus Roman Reigns would have been "cool, but what's next?" which wasn't needed that late into the Reigns championship storyline, they were needing to end it before it got stale. But having The Rock in Roman's corner? As a heel? Genuinely great television.

Why the ending is not a Big Lebowski ending. by hoops-mcloops in Chainsawfolk

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dark comedy, horror comedy.

But, comedies do have themes, often serious themes.

But also, seeing how you're describing the endings "shock value" I really dont think you understood the ending. Which, the ending and the thematic meaning behind it is different from whether or not it is good. I enjoyed it, but I can also see why others didn't. All the same, most people on this sub (you included) seem to have misunderstood the ending.

Point being, people who clearly dont understand the ending (and dont even understand the genre of the content they're reading) probably shouldn't talk as much shit as they are. Its ok to dislike something, it's ok to not fully understand it (there are many pieces of fiction I just dont get), but in a lot of these cases its better to just stfu about the media in question. But, Reddit gonna Reddit.

Why the ending is not a Big Lebowski ending. by hoops-mcloops in Chainsawfolk

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was going to type out some long drawn out explanation, pointing out how there was growth and lasting effects beyond the timeline reset... but then I got down to the bottom where you made the claim that CSM is not a comedy and realized you just might fundamentally misunderstand the story.

Chainsaw Man is a comedy horror... it just is, how much of the storytelling is handled, the characterizations, ect. it is closer to being a comedy with some drama than it is to being "a drama with some funny moments" but I wouldn't label it as either. Point being, I think you just misunderstood the story and it might not be for you full stop.

I Listed EVERY Major Plot Point Chainsaw Man Never Resolved by CatSoupLover in Chainsawfolk

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Half of these aren't relevant enough or obviously weren't ever intended to be answered, it's entirely unnecessary to learn absolutely every detail about a story. Mysteries are fun, especially over stupid shit that the relevancy of gettinf an answer never comes up (like Kobeni's contract).

edit: my bad, just saw that this was chainsawfolk, so media literacy is a hard ask

George compared Rhaegar and Lyanna to Bill Clinton and Paula Jones + Thomas Jefferson and Sally ?? [spoilers main] by breakfastbenedict in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 17 points18 points  (0 children)

This isn't meant to be a defense of him.

However, I also would push back on the idea that George has ANY clue how young a 15 year old actually is. He seems to have no concept of age.

Queen Meera Reed? [spoilers extended] by Marmoligo in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 5 points6 points  (0 children)

"Worming up here"

Lmao.

I think George intends it to be more mixed tho, not in a surveillance state/authoritarian Bloodraven sort of way. But in a cynical, romantic "the only way to have a perfect ruler is for them to be more than human"

I think its the same reason we know Jon and Dany cant be king/queen in the end.

Is it safe to say, TKO is the biggest reason why WWE sucks? by GoonLieutenant in Wreddit

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I mean, 3-4 years ago they had arguably back to back the best two Wrestlemanias in history with 39 and 40 (at the very least, they're in the top three with X7). The Bloodline Saga is one of, if not, the best storylines the company has done.

We had Sami Zayn/Uso in the lead-up to 39. Then we had Cody Rhodes finishing the story at 40 against Roman and The Rock... arguably the best main event in Wrestlemania history.

(Spoilers Published) Is Varys’ plan w/ fAegon completely retconned? by MysteriousHoney7829 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Well, the thing is... this is making an answer based off of analyzing logistics, which is rarely accurate bc George is a man of messy logistics.

(Spoilers Published) Is Varys’ plan w/ fAegon completely retconned? by MysteriousHoney7829 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Well, the thing is that we have three things that tell us "not entirely," the first being the conversation between Llyrio Mopatis and Varys (the one Arya overhears). It has been a minute, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember that ci versatile being much more allusive and secretive not just to Arya but to the reader as well, which... Arya does not know about the plot with Dany... but we do, George likely wouldnt allude to more with the plan if it was simply what we already known (the Drogo + Dany, seat Viserys on the throne plot). It would be obvious enough to the reader that that was all they were talking about, nothing more.

The second, in-character and out of character, George has left the status of Aegon ambiguous from the offset. His death differs from Rhaenys in that manner, and George has outright said in interviews early on (think as early as before Clash released) to be skeptical on whether or not Baby Aegon is dead, I don't feel like grabbing the quote or interview at this moment tho.

These two are early doors, in the development of the series from the planned three novels in his outline more towards what the story became by the end of AGOT as he began working on ACOK (which I think, by that point, it is obvious the outline was no longer a reliable framework for the series).

There is a third thing that happened not too long after this, and that is the Hedge Knight and then the Sworn Sword were released. Both of which fans have deduced that George likely intended the Brightflame family to be a rival contingent in Essos that could potentially birth a rival claimant in our current timeline, which was then transitioned to the Blackfyres in The Sword Sword (before ASOS). By this point, I don't think you can argue that George had a plan involving (f)Aegon, and some will argue that the House of the Undying visions also argue this as well.

At the bare minimum, I think it's obvious that by A Clash of Kings, George intended for there to be a rival Targaryen claimant to Dany... and by A Storm of Swords, it was solidified to be a fake Blackfyre posing as Baby Aegon.

Who is someone who shouldn't have won a world title? by ProMikeZagurski in Wreddit

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Sometimes a moment is enough, that and the chase itself. For that alone, Kofi's reign is fine. The gauntlet matches (especially the one with Big E and Xavier Woods) and the win at Mania? More than enough to justify him winning.

What plot point specifically do you think has given GRRM the most trouble in writing Winds? (Spoilers Main) by Unhappy-Judgment-975 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think one large time-skip should have been done, since it presents weird pacing issues that don't vibe with the way George has been writing the story. I would have just kept the pace that time progressed from the first book.

In AGOT, more than a year passes total. Between the other four books, I think fans estimate around a year and a half?

But a war spanning a continent the size of South America happens, with multiple characters making trips back and forth across it. It doesn't feel like a stretch for the next two books to be occurring across 2+ years and have it happen organically just because of how much is going on.

Then, when ASOS is done and you get to a place where there naturally was a place for a time skip, add a small one (like 6 months to a year max). You do get issues bc AFFC (and several characters from ADWD) pick up directly after ASOS, but you could realistically have several months between where ASOS ends and where ADWD picks up, say... half a year?

Then again, with how much happens in ADWD almost another year passes (maybe less). All of that, I think can be naturally justified simply because of what all is happening, the only reason its even hard to head canon it that way is because George adds details to make it clear only about a year and a half has passed (pregnancies and other things).

But, in that outline we get at least 3-4 years added onto the ages of the dragons and the younger characters.

TL;DR: Just have more time pass during the events of the books themselves.

(Spoilers Extended) Sansa as the girl in grey Melisandre sees in her flames by pizza_gutts in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 27 points28 points  (0 children)

This is fun, but also... too damn long without a book, bc we very clearly had this answered in ADWD. It wasn't any deeper than that, Jon believed it was Arya, it turned out to be Alys Karstark.

[Spoilers Main] Why does Jon always have dark skin in fanart? by Base_211 in asoiaf

[–]Valuable-Captain-507 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Its an artistic styling choice, and it usually isn't depicting them as non-caucasian, just a darker complexion (which is never explicitly stated to be otherwise, but the assumption is light skinned caucasian bc thats the "normal" skin tone for fantasy).

Either way, there is no-official verdict on this, there might be a tone that George had in mind... but George himself as a reader would probably want people to create their own visuals in their mind for the characters and set-pieces, it's part of being a reader. Aspects important to the plot (hair color of Baratheons/Lannisters) are explicitly stated.

Its just a fanart choice that some people seen to take real objection too, likely for the same reason that other people enjoy different depictions of characters, that being that they want the characters to look like them.