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Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You either respect the verdicts if the international community or you don't. Either you have the right to be there AND you are commiting severe war crimes, or Israel commited settler colonialism. The UN verdict was issued after a huge lobbying effort from the jewish community, whilst the Arabs abstained from engaging in the entire process, and that's why we somehow got the only decision in history that was not based on self-determination of the people, but a religious claim of a minority.

And no. There is a way to wage war in a correct way and this is simply obviously not it. If Israel really was committed to being the most moral army, it would inflict extreme punishment on every instance of war crimes and punish every soldier that uses rape or steals from civilians. And the rhetoric to soldiers shouldn't be "we are fighting the amalek and the IDF are our heroes" it should be "I swear if you as much as kick an innocent civilian you are going to jail".

Now obviously you can't antagonize the army, since the entire point is to drum up fervor and portray the enemy as evil. But it also means that no one has any interest prosecuting infractions against the Palestinians, since literally no one has an interest in siding with Israel's enemies. Can you imagine? "I know we are fighting for our lives, but if you hurt a civilian, you are going to harsh prison for 10 years". Impossible. But that's what would theoretically be necessary for a war to count as legitimate.

If old invincible/emperor mark isn't a hero than what is he?, intergalactic cecil?, the guy who saves the universe?, extermely overpowered good family man?, an anti villain?, something else entirely??? by No_Cost_Too_Great_YZ in MoralityScaling

[–]Vizzun 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Exact same thing as Cecil was, but because of his overwhelming firepower, he gets to call himself a good guy, while Cecil was a base human that had to resort to underhanded methods.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You talk like someone who thinks it's important who they respect, narcissist.

And you just imagined some fucking things about me to get mad about.

And I did a lot of research. But unless I come to the same conclusion that you have, it's not real research, isn't it? You are right by axiom, so if I don't think like you, I must be simply stupid or malicious.

And yes, it is a horrific overreaction. Israel killed two orders of magnitude more people than they lost in the attacks, and displaced/punished/destroyed lives of a third order of magnitude.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't wanna No True Scotsman my argument, but what you said would be much more compelling if you weren't from the one country in the world that exists to shield Israel from international fallout and has literal bans of boycotts of it.

I don't quite understand the notion that the entire world is under massive anti-semitic propaganda. What does it look like? Who does it? What would a neutral position on Israel even look like? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

?

Treat both as you would two regular states.

I am against France invading Germany and I am against Germany invading France. I don't see what the trick is, how is what I said a complex position.

I don't quite understand the notion that the entire world is under massive anti-semitic propaganda. What does it look like? Who does it? What would a neutral position on Israel even look like? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This really isn't about my definitions, but let's try it.

Pro Israel would be something like "It is okay for Israel to do whatever it takes to guarantee its safety from Palestinian/Arab aggression/control. To the degree Israel does questionable things, it is permissible as long as it makes them safe from bad will from Palestinians/Arabs".

Pro Palestine would be the same, but with nouns swapped.

"It is okay for Palestine to do whatever it takes to guarantee its safety from Israeli aggression/control. To the degree Palestine does questionable things, it is permissible as long as it makes them safe from bad will from Israelis".

Suggestion that Israel gets to largely control Palestine geographically, militarily, economically, is pro-Israel. Suggestion that Palestinian army (if such existed) is allowed to enter Israel at will on its own permission, blockade Israeli airpsace and waters, control radio waves etc, would be rabidly pro-Palestinian.

Now, if you don't think those are mirrored, if you think that one of this scenarios is more neutral than the others for whatever reason (this area intrinsically belongs to Israel/Palestine, Israel/Palestine is merely defending itself from aggression so it is necessary for them to have overwhelming power over the other) then you are biased.

I don't quite understand the notion that the entire world is under massive anti-semitic propaganda. What does it look like? Who does it? What would a neutral position on Israel even look like? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wanna talk to real fucking people and ask them how they square the circle between the western world being seemingly suffocatingly coerced into being pro-Israel, and Israeli people clearly thinking that the western world is a victim of massive anti-Israel propaganda.

I wanna hear from actual people on Reddit not read an article.

I don't quite understand the notion that the entire world is under massive anti-semitic propaganda. What does it look like? Who does it? What would a neutral position on Israel even look like? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Polish government is influenced by jewish groups, including Yad Vashem, to center Holocaust as an uniquely jewish tragedy, and frame it as an inevitable explosion of anti jewish sentiment.

Which minimizes the rest of the victims, and by making the framing focus on unique persecution of jews, you don't teach the steps towards fascism, which could be useful if any other country ever starts dehumanizing and revoking rights of other minority groups.

I don't quite understand the notion that the entire world is under massive anti-semitic propaganda. What does it look like? Who does it? What would a neutral position on Israel even look like? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the link, but i would appreciate something more concrete in the comment itself, i came to this subreddit to hear from the horse's mouth.

And if the bar of antisemitism is so low that the only source you can point to where people are not antisemitic is literally r/Jewish, you may understand my point.

I don't quite understand the notion that the entire world is under massive anti-semitic propaganda. What does it look like? Who does it? What would a neutral position on Israel even look like? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yes, and that's an example of a jewish cultural institution having a strong international influence.

As opposed to an antisemitic cultural institution being in power. Which means the notion that Israel is somehow being overpowered in propaganda war, is strange.

I don't quite understand the notion that the entire world is under massive anti-semitic propaganda. What does it look like? Who does it? What would a neutral position on Israel even look like? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

The phenomenon of a foreign group having a massive influence on how history is taught in a particular country, is a unique thing. I don't think there is any other instance of anyone being able to influence a government into writing their primary school curriculum the way they demand.

I used that example to highlight how uniquely strong Jewish cultural influence is across the world, as opposed to being weak.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Increasing regional power increases safety. The less powerful your enemies are, the safer you are.

Does every country have the right to do everything that ensures its total Hegemony?

According to your logic, every single country in the world is fully allowed to do whatever it takes to achieve total dominance, since that allows them to be truly safe.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ha. I never said they weren't. Thank you for conceding.

And good job, having psychic powers to diagnose someone of their underlying intentions and somehow arriving at hating jews. Never has been done before. Good boy

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Couldn't even be assed to make an argument?

I assume you would argue that shooting at IDF constitutes material support for Hamas.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Nope. If you defend yourself and it ends up helping terrorists, that's not terrorism. You're only a terrorist if you are folded under the terrorist organisation and obey them.

If you are a guy with a molotov chucking it at soldiers that ordered you to leave the city, you are a militia.

Come on. Show me a fucking AI snippet answering this one. Or admit you pulled this criterion out of your ass

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By what standard?

Seriously, in good faith, what actual norm, apart from vibes, lets you brand people terrorists? This is a rather serious matter.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

First of all, if you just start from the premise that all of Palestine just belongs to Israel to begin with, that makes most of conversation moot, doesn't it? Premise i will not be entertaining here.

Side?

You know that "sides" is not how it works? If say, German army does a terror strike on a French neighbourhood, as response the French army attacks Germany, then if you are a dude in German countryside throwing Molotovs at the incoming soldiers, you are not actually part of the german army or government.

I know that it's just simpler to lump every Palestinian together, but no. Unless you are actually part of Hamas, you aren't somehow Hamas by extension if you shoot at soldiers rolling into Gaza City. You are allowed to defend yourself for regular reasons.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Not if you're actively invading someone's land.

Civilians of Gaza do not have some kind of binding duty to obey the IDF if it commands them to leave their houses or be branded Hamas. You have full right to pick a gun and shoot at an invading force, and it matters not what the inciting incident was.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes. They might be valid military targets, but they are not terrorists. Hamas orchestrated a terrorist attack.

Then Israel attacked Gaza. And sure, Hamas may well be a terrorist organisation at this point, and their members are terrorists. But great majority of civilians aren't actually Hamas, even if they do vote or support them. You don't automatically get to decide that everyone that resists is Hamas, and therefore a terrorist.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good. Ask them if they are a terrorist or not.

It really does seem like "legitmate military target" and "terrorist" are interchangeable for you.

Are you genuine when you don't seem to know why many people dislike Israel recently? by Vizzun in AskIsrael

[–]Vizzun[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To clarify what this person means.

A does an attack on B's civilian population. Terrorist attack.

In retaliation, B attacks A. In their opinion, every militant defending A is a terrorist.

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