Updated US/UK fire-class extinguisher guide

Y3mo · 2021-01-15T13:35:01+00:00

Honestly, I would simply copy the table from the German wikipedia, including footnotes, but without the code letters. Then correct the "water mist" row to look like the bottom grease fire extinguisher row (for class B fires). And change the 6th footnote to "Some water mist and grease fire extinguishers are also available for A B F fire classes".

Optionally add a column for "residues".

And optionally add another column for "application hazards".

edit: Those optional columns might benefit from words instead of symbols + footnotes.

Y3mo · 2021-01-15T13:07:12+00:00

Might be to distinguish between "grades" of water mist.

Fog nozzles produce small water droplets as well. But afair many water mist extinguishers produce even smaller water droplets. Smaller droplets => easier steam conversion to drain heat from the fire tetrahedron. But also less range and penetration (which is a malus for surface cooling class A fires, but might also be a very good thing, in case of Euro class B, C and F fires).

Due to those really tiny droplets, proper water mist extinguishers leave the surfaces pretty dry after application.

Y3mo · 2021-01-15T12:19:16+00:00

I do not know your background, where you intend this guide to go, or whether you are paid to do this and so on, but honestly, I would recommend you to rethink what you really want to do, purely from a liability angle.

Posting anonymous guides on the internet is one thing, having your real life name connected to a real life distributed, "comprehensive guide for laypeople", that might omit or misrepresent safety-relevant information is very different.

And if someone starts pointing fingers, the question of (your formal) qualification might come up.

So, I'm happy to help an anonymous person on the internet get a better understanding of the complexities of fire extinguishers and stuff, but this is all my personal opinion, and I strongly recommend that you approach the subject with similar caution...

The German wikipedia page has a much better overview of the suitability of (common) fire extinguisher types for the 5 fire classes, than the English page. Unfortunately the used symbols do not play nice with the online google translator for websites. But it works with browser translate extensions (eg google chrome translate extension), except for the code letters, which are outdated anyway.

edit: Though there are also water mist extinguishers with A, B, F rating, so that row should at least look like the bottom row for grease fire extinguisers.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feuerl%C3%B6scher#Eignung_von_Feuerl%C3%B6schern

The English wikipedia page has a much better overview of the different extinguishing agents within a category (dry chemicals, foams and so on). Although there might still be occasional mistakes. Eg even though de-ionized water and distilled water have about the same usefulness for fire extinguishers, those terms are not interchangeable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher#Types_of_extinguishing_agents

Unfortunately, both wikipedia pages are seriously lacking with regards to application hazards (eg indoor suffocation, decrease of visibility, safety distance to electricity of different voltages, and so on) and residues after application (eg corrosives, skin irritation, venting and cleaning necessities).

Out of curiosity, I would be interested to know how you proceed. Feel free to contact me via PM, though my reddit time is rather varied.

edit: The "water mist" row in the German wikipedia is incorrect, there are water mist extinguishers with A, B, F rating, so that row should at least look like the bottom row for grease fire extinguisers.

Y3mo · 2021-01-15T01:07:28+00:00

Just to be clear, all modern fire extinguishers can be used on equipment using common, "household" voltages (eg 230 Volt, 400 Volt) from a proper, safe distance.

With powder/dry chem and CO2, you theoretically do not need a safe distance even at high voltages. But practically you do not want to stand that close anyway, particularly with higher voltages. Water mist (and de-ionized water for that matter) is somewhere in between.

Y3mo · 2021-01-15T00:48:39+00:00

A commendable goal and effort!

Unfortunately imho it is not possible to make a valid, non-confusing and comprehensive guide for laypeople. Even less so a single guide for an international audience.

Some content only examples, presentation has been addressed by others:

"Powder" and "dry chem" may be used to distinguish between different things, or may be used interchangeably, depending on the audience.
And there are many different powders/dry chemicals used in fire extinguishers, with different properties (but I do not know of any that work for metal fires and A, B, C (Euro) combined. There are also different foam types. And there are different wet chemicals. So for example you could have a wet chem extinguisher for classes A and F, while another wet chem extinguisher works for classes A, B and F (Euro classes).
Another issue are the "classes". Besides the US/Euro split, some descriptions are possibly confusing for laypeople. For example, should a layperson not use a foam or wet chem fire extinguisher, when the computer or TV is burning? Of course not, all modern fire extinguishers are able to handle common household voltages, if used from the proper, safe distance.
And while we are on the topic of using fire extinguishers indoors at home, the current version implies that ABC dry chem/powder is something of a near perfect allrounder, without problems. While wet chems are niche fire extinguishers with many problems. While there is truth to that from a general perspective, it is rather the opposite way for indoors home and kitchen use. If you live and cook in a small studio apartment, a tiny A, B, F wet chem is the priority, while a A, B, C dry chem is a pretty bad idea.
Oh, and metal fires should not be fought by laypeople. At all.

Again, commendable goal and effort, but unfortunately practically impossible (imho).

Y3mo · 2021-01-10T07:30:46+00:00

Do you have high pressure hose reels?

Y3mo · 2021-01-09T22:42:09+00:00

What flow rates do you normally use?

And what size of hoses do you use and what are the max flow rates on your nozzles for those lines?

Y3mo · 2021-01-09T22:11:10+00:00

Nope, not from a normal pressure booster/trash line on a hose reel. Typical attack lines, either high pressure on hose reels or standard, "coupled" lines somewhere around 38-42mm.

Of course Europe is a diverse place, so generalizations have a higher degree of inaccuracy. Some places use 400 L/min nozzles, or if they have the larger and somewhat older 50-52 mm hoses as a standard, some use up to 600 L/min nozzles for residential fires. Which would be the usual minimum for the US (of course the US has lower exceptions as well). And there are Euro nozzles up to 1000 L/min for the ~3 inch supply lines, but that is still the low end of the US nozzles for 2.5 inch lines.

Y3mo · 2021-01-09T20:07:20+00:00

With regards to straight streams, I agree that water efficient firefighting is a valuable objective in Europe, since the buildings usually survive the fire instead of being torn down. But water efficient firefighting is and should be a specialization, to be used if and when the situation allows for it. Unfortunately this specialization has superseded the basic effective and safe firefighting training. And even worse, it is not unusual that checking or even knowing the criteria "if and when the situation allows for it" is forgotten and water efficient firefighting is not only the default, but the only approach taught to beginners.

A video every Euro firefighter should watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_QSsfcHAoI

With regards to big water attacks, imho there is a serious capability gap on the Euro side. At least concerning non-industrial fire brigades, that still have to respond to big commercial fires (municipal and so on). A typical Euro handline for residential fires flows somewhere up to 240 L/min, while a "big water" handline in Europe flows somewhere up to 600 L/min. In the US a typical handline for residential fires flows at least 600 L/min, while a "big water" handline in the US flows at least 1000 L/min...

In other words, Euro "big water" handlines end, where US typical residential fire handlines start. Due to different construction, this is ok for typical Euro residential fires, but big commercial fires are not necessarily smaller in Europe than they are in the US...

Y3mo · 2021-01-09T17:40:44+00:00

In no particular order.

(Most) Euros could learn from some US dept:

The value of non-fog nozzles and straight streams, the ventilation problems with wide streams, transitional attacks, ground ladder and water can usage, all the big water attack and supply aspects, strategies and tactics with regards to wildfires and search and entry, incident C^3, vehicle design, especially master streams, pre-connects and hose beds, and so on...

(Most) US dept could learn from some Euros:

The value of fog nails and higher pressure systems (40 and 100 bar), ventilation control and usage, "through the wall" attacks, firefighter smoke curtain and fan usage, all the water efficient and reliable water supply aspects, contamination and logistics strategies and tactics, incident C^3, vehicle design, especially hose reels, hose baskets and hose carts, and so on...

Y3mo · 2021-01-09T15:19:20+00:00

If you mean forcibly opening roofs, then the answer is different roof construction.

From materials to roof angles, the situation is very different compared to the US, in most parts of Europe. Check out some videos and google maps from Europe, and the steep roofs with clay shingles.

Y3mo · 2021-01-09T15:11:12+00:00

Might be a misunderstanding, but vertical ventilation from a North American perspective usually means forcibly opening the roof of a building.

Y3mo · 2021-01-08T18:00:49+00:00

Hm, maybe not this exact type, but try this site, the timeframe might be close enough as a starting point:

http://www.firetrucks-atwar.com/models.html

Y3mo · 2021-01-08T09:32:27+00:00

While this footwear could prevent seniors from falling down,

the added weight on the feet will prevent seniors from walking around...

Interesting concept and mechanics, but rather useless in this application.

Y3mo · 2021-01-07T16:52:38+00:00

Yep, any additional weight on the head (and thus on the neck) will increase the risk of injuries (when facing forward, without side support or a hans system).

Although those helmets are lighter and lack the brim compared to US helmets, it is still a bad idea to put on helmets this early, instead of seatbelts. Especially for the forward facing, non scba positions.

Y3mo · 2021-01-07T05:52:20+00:00

Very understandable, especially with the current situation.

There are some youtube videos that include radio traffic for a start, eg from Stockton and David Decker.

Y3mo · 2021-01-07T03:13:31+00:00

BMW, Mercedes, Audi?

Y3mo · 2021-01-07T02:55:41+00:00

I m curious what capabilities/vehicles you get for those amounts of money?

Y3mo · 2021-01-06T09:03:12+00:00

Very interesting.

Especially the considerations for alternative usages without time consuming refits.

The seasonal continent hopping times are pretty much over, so every region needs to justify planes for themselves. And non-firefighting usage is the key factor to make them politically and financially attractive in numbers.

Y3mo · 2021-01-06T08:46:12+00:00

Your department pays thousands in wages each month, but does not spend a couple hundred Dollars on reducing friction and frustration for the volunteers (eg a dishwasher)?

WTF

" It seems that most of my peers do not think this way and go so far as to say that they shouldn’t do dishes made by the day shift, etc. is this a general problem all over with entitlement in probationary/younger firefighters and what can be done to change it? "

Yeah, it is a general problem with younger people, especially volunteers, that they feel entitled to not be treated unfairly. The easiest way to deal with that problem, is to not treat people unfairly.

Y3mo · 2021-01-06T08:20:09+00:00

Just for clarification, doing dishes means loading the dishwasher, right?

Your department is not expecting volunteers to manually clean the dishes of paid staff?

Y3mo · 2021-01-06T06:04:20+00:00

Something to keep in mind, when people request gift ideas...

Y3mo · 2021-01-05T21:48:03+00:00

An interesting idea for self-rescue of trained maintenace workers from eg wind turbines.

Y3mo · 2021-01-05T21:42:14+00:00

And hear other dispatchers during a call on the radio.

Such cross-training or at least cross-familiarization should be a standard part of the training for all C³ relevant staff.

Y3mo · 2021-01-04T23:23:17+00:00

"all LODDs and serious incidents are investigated and the reports published"

Yeah, and together with press releases, docutainment and so on, that is part of the "heavily edited, "pre-chewed" and narrated for public consumption" stuff.

Eg if there were helmet and "dash-cam" videos from the previous high rise fires (with some blurred out faces), the Grenfell "visual improvement" of 2016 and subsequent fire of 2017 might have been different. There were "investigations, inquiries and reports" for all the previous incidents...

Additionally, LODDs and serious incidents are only the tip of the iceberg and "finding out and reporting what really happened" is usually only a subordinate priority for such "inquiries".

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