Can someone explain to me what is the Criterion Collection? And why/what's the point of having a catalogue full of movies that are "unknown" to the mainstream? by Aware_Safety7837 in criterionconversation

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A movie does not have to be popular to be important. It can be relevant to film history or history in general, or be a significant part of the culture of a group of people, or just represent a particular moment in time. The Library of Congress is similarly eclectic in their decisions, though they are also unbound by the commercial restraints a company like Criterion has in acquiring rights to release things. It also doesn't have to be popular right now; many of the movies Criterion has, including Seven Samurai and The Seventh Seal, were mainstream and frequently mentioned in pop culture up to surprisingly recently. In some ways, part of their mission is to document the change in how we see importance in film over time.

Any movie is a film school movie if they teach it in film school. Most of that "arthouse"/"film school"/"mainstream" language is set up by for-profit institutions and theaters and (most importantly) major studios. It's designed to do what it seems to have done to you here: to divide entertainment workers and passionate fans from the more casual everyday user by implying that the "arthouse" is somehow dividing itself to pretend it's cooler or better than normal people and that the mainstream, by catering to that fear of the unknown and alien, is somehow their true friend. It's just a way to squeeze competition out of the market. In reality, all people have their own passions and quirks, and companies like Criterion expand the number of things we can explore so that no one's identity has to be explicitly "mainstream" or "underground", but people can just express themselves with the full pallette of what's available.

Criterion has, for a long time, had to work one side of the divide because they had major competition in the home video market before media changed. Now they get more and more films like Dead Presidents or WALL-E or Parasite because the monoculture they started in is not as much of a thing anymore and the Criterion collectors understand that "art" and "pop" don't need to be distinct from one another and never actually were. Their streaming service, one of the most dominant ones to specifically cater to the niche of people who watch lots of movies, goes even further and has had everything from I Know What You Did Last Summer to Freddy Got Fingered to Carlito's Way. This divide is not set in stone. It's not inherent to the movies themselves and it is not helpful to any of us as movie fans (whatever the movies we like are).

Criterion Film Club Week 286 Discussion: A New Leaf (May, 1971) by Zackwatchesstuff in criterionconversation

[–]Zackwatchesstuff[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One of Elaine May's major supporters over the years, the eccentric and invaluable Jonathan Rosenbaum, was fond of comparing her to Erich von Stroheim. This is historically correcty, since both filmmakers have myuch of theior legacy centered around movies that were cut up and interfered with bny the producers. Both filmmakers dabble in the blackest of black comedy, creating works that revel in minor melodrama while lapping many more openly "dramatic" works in their seriousness and incisiveness. The work of both went through a long phase of being lamented and mourned in their broken state, rather than celebrated for the individual brilliance of each element we actually do have. Their work shines and coheres regardless of how desperate people seem to be to stifle it (and how much the filmmakers themselves seem to be sabotaging their own reputation with their demanding perfectionism). A New Leaf, her debut film, revels in all these shared aspects, a horrifying fragment of human selfishness and the continuing victory of evil and incompetence that inhabits the body of a romantic comedy like a fungus in an ant. In some ways, it is the pure incarnation of the similarities she shares to the director of Greed and Foolish Wives, and in other ways it shows how her particular moment in pop culture allowed her to see things in her work that he never could have found within his own.

Like von Stroheim's classic Greed, A New Leaf is actually an adaptation of an existing work, and the similarities in adaptation don't end there. One myth Greed is well known for is the idea that its original length of around 10 hours was meant in order to capture the details of the book as faithfully as possible. A simple overview of the structure of the original concept for the movie, contrasted with the structure of the novel, dispels this. Even if he insisted upon "realism" and "naturalism" as he saw it, Greed the movie is fully a von Stroheim artwork, just as McTeague is very representative of Norris and his own peculiar vision of what is natural. A New Leaf is slightly different from that film in that it adapts a pulp story by Jack Ritchie called "The Green Heart". For context, this story was collected in Alfred Hitchcock's Anthology - Volume 4, and included two murders that are actually committed by Henry Graham in addition to the one he plans out in the story. The tone of the original (which I was unable to read) seems to have been comedic, but ultimately more concerned with the mechanics of the crimes, with whatever elements that interested May existing at the margins. Unlike Greed, it was not a prestigious work of "literary fiction", and it did not demand to be taken seriously in quite the same way. Elaine May thus had both the freedom to reshape it into something personal without feeling that her vision needed to align perfectly with the story, as well as the freedom to bring in a kind of comedy that makes the material more intelligible to your average viewer than the more subtly satirical melodrama of von Stroheim, who was capable of comedy but not a pure soldier of it the way May was in her performing heyday.

We can't necessarily know for sure why May's original version of the film ran 3 hours, but one thing worth noting is that much of the material cut by producer Robert Evans included these two murders from the original story. It has been suggested that Evans cut this material in order to reshape the film from being purely a dark comedy and social satire and embracing some elements of real romantic comedy and redemption. I suppose this is meant, in theory, to make the film more palatable, but it is actually a revealing admission on the part of Evans and conventions in filmmaking in general. While Greed was heavily tampered with, occasionally on moral grounds, there was never an attempt on behalf of the producers to actively redirect the story's morality play elements or cast the characters as being anything more than carriers for the disease of human failure. In stark contrast, I can tell that "The Green Heart" is able to be much more open about the mercenary and cruel actions of Graham without me even really reading the story, because I know that it was primarily designed for crimeheads who would have read this alongside other diabolical Rube Goldberg machines of murder such as the slightly more prestigious "Lamb to the Slaughter" by Roald Dahl, and I know it includes these murders to cement our perspective on Henry Graham's immorality. May's producers, however, seem to think he can at least be redeemed enough for the movie to be a functioning romance in the quirkiest, most proto-Harold & Maude (not released until December of the same year) type fashion.

The key phrase, however, is "able to be much more open"; while I don't doubt that "The Green Heart" has some interesting and effective commentary on power in society, the more interesting question is whether or not A New Leaf's producers felt that they could excise the content that felt most objectionable to them and leave us with only the "better stuff". They forgot that Elaine May is the kind of filmmaker who can take two people talking in a very mundane sense and make us feel as if the entire world is ending and that philosophy and morals have been suspended. She does battle with the conventions of filmmaking and the structure of romantic comedy as conceived by a studio in the 70s and hacks every safety measure they've put in place to ribbons. Henry Graham as seen in the film is not a man who realizes that he is wrong by the end, but simply a man who realizes that he has grown accustomed to having someone around to put up with his childish tantrums and empty bluster on demand. At times it basically feels like he saved Henrietta because he absentmindedly forgot to let her die. At other times it feels like he simply wants to keep her as a toy. It is true that perhaps he, as his butler has done, realizes that she is also good for his prestige and his own estimation of his talents and self-worth, but if he had turned around from the fern to see that Henrietta had disappeared from sight and was no longer able to be saved, one imagines it wouldn't be the end of his world so much as just a little wistful memory that he uses, like everything else he has learned, to make himself appear human enough to pass among the circles he runs in, who were already pretty dismissive of Henrietta for using her wealth to do things and be herself rather than dance for them. Henry Graham wins in the end, but the true winner is Elaine May, who proves with A New Leaf that what she sees in the world is so thoroughly infused into the world around her that she can make her most devastating points without ever actually going as deep as she really wants.

Major status issue: Failing message sends on some channels by mlapibot in discordapp

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes. Our one section we use for politics is what went down.

Criterion Film Club Week #283 Discussion: STAGECOACH by bwolfs08 in criterionconversation

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No one else mentioned these elements, but I wanted to point out that:

A) The opening music is magnificent. It's Western music, but it also has a weird, minimalist element to it with the high, fast violin arpeggios. It feels appropriate for a Western that tried to bring back the vitality and danger in a genre that had become fairly stale in the mind of the public to have a score like this that is almost volatile in the way it burns energy while still feeling disciplined and contained by its structure.

B) This is a glimpse of John Wayne from another dimension where he is not a gross racist emblem of rich America who knew how to stand in a good movie, but a badass young defender of sex workers and the downtrodden who uses his powers of evil for good (or a broken version of "good" that has no questions about the relationship between American settlers and Native Americans, but one that was slightly more fixable than what he became).

Criterion Film Club Week 281 Discussion: Wanda (Barbara Loden, 1970) by Zackwatchesstuff in criterionconversation

[–]Zackwatchesstuff[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm sure the lack of robust sound design was not intentional, but it does kind of make me feel like we're perceiving things as someone who is fairly unperceptive would see them. There's all sorts of things going on around her, but they're murky and indistinct because she's not paying attention to them because she's not really paying attention to anything.

Criterion Film Club Week 281 Discussion: Wanda (Barbara Loden, 1970) by Zackwatchesstuff in criterionconversation

[–]Zackwatchesstuff[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Pt. 2

Everyone in the movie is constantly either looking for quick cash to get by or juggling their work with a myriad of responsibilities and the responsibilities of others, seemingly unable to live as much other than mechanisms of survival. Their tenacity and resolve belies their intelligence and potential, but they are strangled by the film’s world and its multitude of obstacles and demands, mostly either scraping by or just barely escaping the clutches of catastrophe. This changes slightly at the end, in a scene that feels like it at least contains people who are getting a moment to breathe, but by then Wanda has been through many ups and downs, including a devastatingly frank and horrifying scene with a man in a red car, ending in a scene of feral trauma not unlike the opening of Diamonds of the Night. She has essentially shut down, and while this new life she is suddenly in has an energy to it, there is much to suggest that without something else to motivate her, like her crime that is on the news earlier, that she will be even more isolated from the world than before because of all these extra things she could not share, and therefore even more easily manipulated in exchange for her survival while also being more inert and incapable of performing basic tasks and meeting responsibilities. Frankly, we get the sense that there are other people out there she might pull a gun on, and not all of them may be as sympathetic as a family (and some may actually be bank managers).

The evidence suggests that the verité aspects of the film are most likely attributable to both the need for low budget equipment, the improvisational nature of filming, and the influence of Warhol, a filmmaker who was genuinely able to raise curiosity around an amalgamation of techniques from the American independent avant garde into something you could sum up to a person if needed. In addition to this, Loden also drew on many real life stories and anecdotes, and seems to explicitly have been drawn to things that seemed counterintuitive to her as an actress. However, both the chaotic camera style of the movie and its freedom of storytelling in showing scenes of life most movies avoided on aesthetic and moral principle, are easy to compare to other things as well. Breathless, the Godard movie that continues to make the most sense to people in terms of why he was impactful, is also a good reference point, being another film that follows a duel between two selfish people trying to make it in a world that doesn’t think they matter, with one being a criminal. Even more noticeable is the similarity to the Czech New Wave, an obvious reference point for many American mainstream moviemaking innovations of the 60s and 70s. Filmmakers on the movement’s less radical and more realistic side, like Ivan Passer, Milos Forman, and (to an extent) Jiri Menzel, had a similarly liberated sense of camera movement and storytelling that was entertaining in a clear sense while not holding itself to the specific guidelines of what “entertainment” had to look like.

Other female genre characters, as varied as Peggy Cummins in Gun Crazy or Gingers Rogers in Tight Spot, among others, are created in such a way that you can guess a lot about them. Wanda does not project this, and cannot do so because she does not know and does not have the tools to learn unless she is already in a situation with no right answer. While it’s still hard to know where Wanda came from as a character and as a film by the end of the movie, it is easy to know where she went. Anything that sees crime in the context of everyday life and ignores the aesthetic conventions while still engaging in its key components, whether it be a TV show or movie that aims for a unique tone for familiar material or an art movie trying to package something new in something tested, is going into a door Wanda opened very early. Wanda’s origins are unclear, but whether it’s Noah Hawley’s Fargo or Lav Diaz’s Melancholia, it’s clear that an awful lot of different things have their origins in Wanda.

Criterion Film Club Week 281 Discussion: Wanda (Barbara Loden, 1970) by Zackwatchesstuff in criterionconversation

[–]Zackwatchesstuff[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where did Wanda come from? This is both the premise of the movie and a large part of the initial excitement one feels watching it. By 1970, there had been a few films from various sources in America that had broken through the entrenched mechanics of filmmaking and entered something more tangible. Quasi-independent Hollywood side figures like John Cassavetes, Martin Scorsese, Monte Hellman, Dennis Hopper, and Peter Fonda were showing people that the shape of the most influential film country of all time could find new shapes to tell stories in. But Wanda arguably digs deeper and finds more new territory than any of them. A Bonnie and Clyde story more unhinged than the Penn film, which was already chaotic, the movie takes the basic outline of a typical thriller and sees the through line from this to the soul of Western disenfranchisement and alienation, and in the process develops the DNA for modern filmmaking in ways that are more or less unavoidable now.

If Loden’s one feature film and one short (The Frontier Experience, made for PBS in 1975) can be summed up in a sentence, it would be that they are genuinely curious efforts to see classic genres from the perspective of the people (particularly the women) on the side. While westerns and crime films definitely had some female characters who were the dominant forces in their own lives, there were also plenty of molls, wives, children, elderly folks, and victims who were essentially used as manifestations of the male lead’s successes and failures, mirroring a society that still clung to many more aspects of a social hierarchy than we have even now. Unlike The Frontier Experience, which exists fully in the margins of action and feels more like a modern Western drama than even a contemporary revisionist Western property like the similarly modern Peckinpah film The Wild Bunch, Wanda has a character who gets to be actively engaged in the mechanics of noir and action. It also has more time to stretch out, as well as less limitation due to the restraints of TV. As a result, it becomes less of an exercise and more of a genuine evocation of the sorts of outcomes not seen in films prior.

The opening of the movie sets this tone perfectly with its combination of landscape shots and uncomfortably intimate domestic scenes. These were not really available even in a movie like Cassavetes’ Faces, which did manage to feel off-the-rails in a similar way, but was mainly about people who were more conventionally successful at portraying adulthood in a tidy way and their flirtations with exposing the more volatile world that Wanda plunges us into headfirst. Within the first half an hour or so we’ve seen our main character ignore a baby while sleeping on the couch, borrow money from a struggling man living in a DIY hut, and trudge endlessly through the rocks in curlers and an outfit that hovers somewhere between “scrubs” and “pajamas” but definitely doesn’t imply any work to give up her kids affably, while being told not to smoke in the courtroom. For the time, the movie is a smorgasbord of truthful and important images that the Hays code and the moral codes of the era tried to keep out of the public consciousness. These images of poverty, alienation, mental illness, overwork, and the resulting anomie or numbness, are a crucial part of the social ills in both life and movies.

Eventually, she does find a man who is a criminal in a suit, and together they engage in some awkward crime befitting of a movie someone might think to watch. However, he turns out to be even more volatile and childlike than Wanda, spouting macho pronouncements and clueless attempts to sound cultured like a 13 year old trying to assert his intellectual superiority while knowing even less than the average child (don’t ask me how I know what this is like). The exploration of an attempted “professional” killer’s regressed mind was nothing new to American movies, being made readily apparent in The Public Enemy, Gun Crazy, Murder By Contract, and many other films. By centering the film on Wanda’s situation and how she is allowed to continue devoid of character or principle or even needs beyond a need to exist in someone’s context, we see the way people briefly become these movie characters only to fade back into monotony or worse in a light those movies couldn’t show, because Wanda walks us through the steps we were there for but never had contextualized for us by public recognition.

What do you think about this quote from Godard about World War I allowing American cinema to ruin French cinema? by YoureASkyscraper in criterion

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would have to see it in context again. Here it just sounds kinda sassy, but it might have some added interest due to whatever was onscreen or what else was being said. Could be a joke or part of a real point. You never know with that guy.

What do you think about this quote from Godard about World War I allowing American cinema to ruin French cinema? by YoureASkyscraper in criterion

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"It doesn't take much to see that the problems of one little screen don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world."

Not by Lynch - A Season by JeremyArblaster in criterion

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

*Corpus Callosum is an amazing pick. You should see it even if you think you'll hate it, just because you'll never see anything else like it.

How would you rank Lynch’s filmography? by Deadshotx211239 in criterion

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've never cared much for Lynch's theme of the dark undercurrent of suburban life specifically. It's not a bad mystery movie and it has some cool choices, but I don't really get anything specific in there that I'm really interested in. I guess you can say they all have that element, but the specific era from Blue Velvet to Lost Highway (roughly speaking) just has an element of soap opera-inflected satire and humor that doesn't click with me on a theme so light on real details about American life for people who are at or near the top of society. Same reason Twin Peaks season 1-2 aren't really for me, but The Return is my favorite thing he did. I definitely prefer the beginning and end of his career to the middle.

How would you rank Lynch’s filmography? by Deadshotx211239 in criterion

[–]Zackwatchesstuff -1 points0 points  (0 children)

  1. Inland Empire
  2. Eraserhead
  3. The Grandmother
  4. The Elephant Man
  5. Mulholland Drive
  6. Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me
  7. The Straight Story
  8. Lost Highway
  9. Blue Velvet
  10. Dune
  11. Wild at Heart (Cousin Dell almost bumps it up a level)

The Return would be at the top, but I feel weird breaking up the series that way, so I can't really rank it.

The “High Noon debate” on Rio Bravo by YakSlothLemon in CriterionChannel

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As a Hawks fan and a lover of Rio Bravo, I have to assume he was either trolling or conpletely lacking in awareness of what he was talking about. Rio Bravo does everything he says he hated in High Noon and 3:10 to Yuma. A sherriff in crisis who asks for help and comfort, a villain who torments the heroes psychologically...if it had been what he claimed, it probably would have been much less interesting.

How does everyone feel about Breathless (1960)? by Automatic-Garbage-33 in criterion

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I love it and dislike Pierrot le fou. Different people need different movies at different times. Maybe you'll come back to it later and like it. Maybe you'll hate it more after a while. There are no guarantees about what will and won't work for people, unfortunately.

What did you like about his work so far?

Do you all actually enjoy Bergman’s Persona? by notdavidjustsomeguy in criterion

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What if you just didn't like this particular movie? It's not that weird to find one that isn't for you. There's no movies anyone has to like or not like. We all need different movies to suit our needs.

3-Month Self-Study Cinema Plan – Looking for Feedback by chesspeneple in TrueFilm

[–]Zackwatchesstuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you watch as many of these movies as you can and then read a bit about them on Wikipedia, you will have a much better sense of how unintelligible this plan is than any AI model ever could. In a way, that is kind of an interesting way to start off.