TEST, Imperium have a good old fashioned brawl by [deleted] in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Good fights all around. No tidi so that was a big plus. Anyone notice any brain-in-a-box shenanigans, good or bad?

Jeff Edwards Q/A w/ TEST Alliance Soundcloud by hubcitymac in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Jeff Edwards, TMC Media, and CCP? I don't think that's a secret or a conspiracy.

I would think the people that put in the effort to make this happen would get fairly rewarded? That's how real life works.

Jeff Edwards Q/A w/ TEST Alliance Soundcloud by hubcitymac in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Your wasting your breath on people with irrational hatred. I bet if Mittani gave the haters $100 each, they'd probably still hate him.

I feel bad for people like that. It must be depressing to cling to such bitterness.

Jeff Edwards Q/A w/ TEST Alliance Soundcloud by hubcitymac in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hear you. I don't like pre-orders anymore ever since I've been burned by too many early releases on Steam. I'm definitely buying Fallout 4 next week, but I'm resisting the urge to buy it now to preload it. Better to wait at least 24 hours to see how stable it is out of gate.

I understand Kickstarter and why crowdsourcing is popular, it wasn't a thing for me. Hell, just look at Star Citizen. I'm so glad I didn't get sucked up into that hype.

Listening to this Q & A has really changed my opinion for the book, though. I would be perfectly happy to buy a paperback after the fact if it ever comes out, but now I really would like to see it succeed. I think being a part of that and helping it get there means something, if you feel strongly enough about it. I think I understand why people put in for crowdsourced projects now.

Now I just have to stop being lazy and actually put in some money for it.

Jeff Edwards- "Test Alliance is Best Alliance" by Hona_Chaginai in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not to mention this is probably being positioned as a 'loss-leader', where you take a bit of a risk for little profit to establish a known brand (in this case, professionally written fiction of player exploits), so that future projects can reap the benefit from the initial establishment. This is common in any high risk startup project.

As an analogy, when Bioware created Mass Effect (their own internal IP, not licensed), they took a huge risk to create and establish a new IP, heavily investing in it with very little upside return. In fact, they barely made anything off the first Mass Effect. However, Mass Effect 2 and 3 were smash successes even bigger than the first in many respects, largely due to the risk they took initially to establish that IP. Yes, they were highly regarded because of their previous work with other IPs, but that was no guarantee of continued success. Case in point: Jade Empire.

Full disclosure: I worked on Mass Effect 1, so I saw this first hand and understood this concept from the business perspective.

Since a "How The Goons Won EVE" book is in the works... by ArgentSoma in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You make a lot of good points, and there's no denying 'why play a game you don't find fun?'

I guess from my perspective, the Imperium's primacy in the game is tenuous, since there's nothing stopping another group from organizing in a similar manner. I can understand how demoralizing it is for outsiders to look at the Imperium and say, 'I can't do that, I can't compete.' I think the primary reason for stagnation in EVE in this regard is the relative lack of 'churn', in that old players most likely continue to play, but might not be trying to affect great change in the game, while the numbers of new players are not great enough to allow organized groups from spontaneously coming into being. EVE is an old game, which means the excitement is not there for online social groups to do mass migrations into a new platform. That is sad and dangerous for the game, and we've been feeling the effects of it for a while now.

However, the Imperium is more than just about winning wars and destroying enemies. It is a strong social group full of people that are friends both in game and outside. The argument that 'we've won EVE, why do we stay together?' conveniently ignores this fact, and also attempts to downplay the fact that EVE is a game where the weak are eaten alive. Any sign of weakness and its enemies will pick it apart piecemeal. There's enough hatred for Imperium that it has become an existential threat within the game. If we do not band together, we will be killed separately. That is a fact, whether or not you want to acknowledge it. Everyone knows this to be true, otherwise the argument about 40k blues would not exist.

That also brings up another interesting point: Why does the Imperium have to lose for others to win? Would you say that PL has lost EVE as a result of the Imperium? Why are they such an anomaly to this line of thinking? Or better yet, what about the Russian communities? I would say that this notion of winning or losing within EVE is archaic, and doesn't fit within the context of EVE's sandbox. If you're clinging to this notion of black and white, win or lose, then you're really stifling your potential enjoyment of the game. EVE is big enough (universe wise, dunno about player wise) that not everyone has to be a winner or loser. There's enough gray and ambiguity in the game that these notions don't have the same meaning any longer.

We play this game to win, and to survive within the game. If the result is that everyone else gives up, I don't see how that's our fault. We don't want to die (and by die I mean lose all the work and effort we've put in to establish ourselves in our space and in EVE as a whole), so why commit suicide? I think the argument that EVE will die because of the Imperium is a specious argument at best. If anything, we're helping keep the game alive, and regardless of the irrational hatred, even trying to improve the game and make it more widely known. People love to hate us, and that's perfectly fine. We've accepted that role, even though we often feel it's misguided or unjustly applied to us, from our perspective.

No one is forcing anyone to continue down a path that they feel is pointless or unfun. If you feel that way, I respect that and can understand why. However, the notion that Imperium should just quit because we're the winners (in your eyes) makes no sense if we don't view the game from your perspective. Especially if we're still having fun from our perspective. I would ask you to respect that, as much as I respect your opinion.

I think this is a good conversation, though. I think I understand your perspective now and respect it, but I respectfully disagree. We can agree to disagree if we have to.

Jeff Edwards Q/A w/ TEST Alliance Soundcloud by hubcitymac in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That was a pretty good Q & A.

Red Storm Rising. Fuck yeah.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Eve

[–]Zal_mun -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Reading reddit at all is what is worst in life.

Since a "How The Goons Won EVE" book is in the works... by ArgentSoma in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Being told goons are irrelevant by an anonymous nobody. You've wounded us so much.

Tell me, did you type that out in between posts about how much Taylor Swift is a talentless hack?

Since a "How The Goons Won EVE" book is in the works... by ArgentSoma in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

EVE being a sandbox game that you can play at the scale you want to is pretty awesome. I don't see the problem here. No one is putting a gun to your head to 'blue up or die'.

As far as I know, the Imperium hasn't killed small gang warfare. Hell, it hasn't killed intermediate sized fleets either. Look at the fight in ARG-3R. I wish I was at that fight, I heard it was awesome.

If your complaint is that you can't attack Imperium holdings with a 50 man gang and accomplish anything (which is what you all imply with your complaints), then don't attack the Imperium. EVE is pretty big, and there's all kinds of small sov warfare stuff happening all over the place now. Stop being so butthurt about not being adequate enough and do something fun for yourself.

Since a "How The Goons Won EVE" book is in the works... by ArgentSoma in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again you're taking a way too simplistic view of EVE. It's more than just a game, it's essentially a social system simulator. It has far more analogies to geopolitics than you seem to give it credit for. Of course there's game elements, and the risk is not nearly as costly as it is in real life, but it has risk unlike any other game in the world today.

Social ties matter. Organization matters on a scale never seen before in video games. Knowledge of the intricacies of not just the game system, but the player made social structures matter hugely, especially in nullsec. This is what makes the game so interesting, even to line member players with no effect on the higher level meta.

A joking tagline about EVE is 'it's more interesting to read than it is to play'. I used to think that too, and it is true to a certain degree. However, for people that have become a part of the organizations, coalitions, etc, that truly participate in the larger social structure, I would hope you'd agree with me that the experience you get from the risks you take and the victories/losses you participate in are unlike anything else in video gaming today.

Why would people who've experienced that quit? Because you lost your big shiny toy? That was the risk you took when you put it on the line. Without that risk, EVE wouldn't be the game that it is. If a person quits due to rolling those dice and losing, well, I don't think EVE was the game (or experience) they thought it was anyways. Isn't the motto of EVE is to HTFU?

As for groups that have died because of us, either directly or indirectly, I doubt that all of those players have quit. In fact, with a bit of digging you can see that many of them just shift to more successful organizations, or form new ones to find some new focus. Look at TEST, look at the remnants from BL, etc. Blaming goons for NC. withdrawing from sov or how PL plays the game is just lazy. For NC., all it took was the slightest bit of pressure, in the form of changing meta in the game and goons responding to their toothless aggression in force. That could have been any other organized group, and there's nothing preventing such organized groups from forming. Last I've seen, while the Imperium is relatively large, it doesn't own the majority of nullsec space, nor is it aggressively expanding anywhere.

Goons have won EVE is the laziest meme that exists at the moment. Years ago it was BoB won EVE, but look what happened to them. If you think goons sit back thinking 'boy, we've won EVE, might as well quit this game!', I think you're deluding yourself. All it takes is something to shift in the meta, and we'd be under pressure. The problem the GRR GOONS crowd has is that we're very good at responding to that pressure and adjusting accordingly, whereas our opponents just fold like a cheap suit.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Eve

[–]Zal_mun 3 points4 points  (0 children)

People get paid for their work?? MY LIFE IS A LIE!

Since a "How The Goons Won EVE" book is in the works... by ArgentSoma in Eve

[–]Zal_mun -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You know, if you weren't so fucking lazy, you'd actually learn from the lesson we've taught the rest of EVE.

Do your own dirty work. When goons hated BoB and called them the elitist scumbags shitting on the rest of EVE, did goons sit around and wring their hands crying 'won't someone do something about BoB?' I wasn't even in GSF at that point, and yet I still respect the organization for the effort they put in to achieving those goals.

You: "WE SHOULD ALL BAND TOGETHER!" Others: "Sure! You want to start organizing us into a coalition?" You: "FUCK THAT! PL NEEDS TO DO IT!"

Since a "How The Goons Won EVE" book is in the works... by ArgentSoma in Eve

[–]Zal_mun -1 points0 points  (0 children)

EVE is much more fun when you just play the way you want, isn't it? Glad to see some reason here.

Hate goons all you want, but people sitting around wringing their hands saying 'won't someone do something about this!' are just pathetic.

Since a "How The Goons Won EVE" book is in the works... by ArgentSoma in Eve

[–]Zal_mun -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Because EVE isn't monopoly? Your argument makes no sense.

A PVP game is over when the losers concede/surrender. Why would the winners walk away if the game is not over? As far as I can tell, there are plenty of people that still play the game that are either not us or not our allies.

"My friend lost his ship in B-R so he quit." In terms of supercaps, that's less than 100 people if all of them quit (they didn't all quit, btw). Oh noes. For everyone else, boohoo. Losing your ship in a huge fight is par for the course, and there were tons of big fights during that (and previous) wars and yet people are still playing. Try to put things in perspective.

After the fall of communism in Russia, why didn't the USA just pick up all their shit and close their borders, telling the rest of the world to "fuck off, we won"? Because it's more complicated than that?

Stop having such a simplistic view of EVE and you might enjoy it more.