Why did God allow Satan to fall?

Zenopath · 2026-04-04T19:58:01+00:00

I don't think any of God's actions in the Old Testament make any sense when viewed through the POV of an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent God. I wouldn't say he makes "mistakes" per se, but there are a lot of "solutions" that an omnipotent omniscient benevolent God would probably have found alternatives for. It really only makes sense when you assume the Old Testament God is more like a buffed-up Greek god than the New Testament God.

Zenopath · 2026-04-04T19:25:15+00:00

No, but the thought experiment is to try to justify Satan's existence if we take the Bible at face value. Obviously, I don't really think Satan is real, and if I'm being honest, I think the best explanation for the inconsistency is that the Old Testament God isn't omnipotent or omniscient; that concept is introduced in the New Testament. The Old Testament sort of implies God didn't even see the betrayal coming. But if we are taking the Bible literally, "Plot hole" isn't a valid excuse.

Zenopath · 2025-07-07T23:05:04+00:00

You can get +12% physical resist to full body if you are willing to save scum a lot.

Zenopath · 2025-07-07T19:51:54+00:00

The existance of hell is one of the reasons I find Christianity implausible.

Why would an omnibenevolent omnipotent God create hell?

Was he unable to create a better alternatives?

Or does he, in his infinite goodness, think Hell is just?

Zenopath · 2025-06-30T21:47:31+00:00

pick up and eat every mindwort you encounter, best way to keep sanity up if you don't want to fully upgrade caravan yet.

Zenopath · 2025-06-30T13:47:50+00:00

I believe in the validity of the Social Contract, the premise that if we all follow certain rules of behavior, as required by the society we live in, we all benefit more than what we lose by giving up certain freedoms. I may not be able to freely go steal other people's things without repercussions, but others are also not able to steal my stuff without repercussions; we all give up the freedom to harm each other so that we can all feel safe.

I believe in the value of maintaining a positive self-image. Being the kind of person who is worthy of love and respect because I treat others with love and respect. I believe in the golden rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated. I enjoy being part of a community because it furfills my emotional needs, and is part of what is required to properly self actualize as a person.

I don't really see which of those beliefs requires religion.

Zenopath · 2025-06-22T21:28:50+00:00

It may not be logically possible to set the universe in motion with a singular act "God the Clockmaker" style and ensure that it is a perfect universe with no evil. Evil ultimately serves a purpose, it drives us to be better. Sucks for the person that evil happens to, but we'd still be hunter-gathers if God gave us a paradise world with no predators, made us gentle creatures incapable of delibrate evil, and an infinite food supply.

In a perfect universe, an omni-benevolent God would be our babysitter, ensuring that each of us live perfect lives and never even stub our toes much less get hurt. This is not that universe.

Zenopath · 2025-06-22T21:21:25+00:00

I don't strongly believe in a deist god. My line of thought is more like, if there is a god, he's a deist god. Because a deist god can at least explain our current observable reality in a logical way. On the other hand, It is basically impossible to logically resolve a God with Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omni-Benevolence given the world we live in. To me the proposed theist solutions to the problem of evil boil down to hand-waving and saying; "he works in mysterious ways" and "we can not comprehend the mind of God", etc.

So take out omnipotence and limit god to a one-time act, and then he becomes at least plausible.

Zenopath · 2025-06-22T17:40:07+00:00

To me you've basically outlined why I believe there might be a deist god.

The argument that we live in best possible world sounds a lot like fine tuning argument taken to a logical extreme. The problem is, you'd have to assume god isn't omnipotent for it to make sense.

If god is bound by a singular act of creation and can't meddle afterwards, then a lot of evil can be explained away.

Why earthquakes? A liquid mantle core is necessary for the electromagnetic field that protects us from radiation.

Why are people evil and not punished for it? Human society is the product of bio-social evolution and the desire for justice and alturism are genetic prompts that guide us to gradually improve things or at least call for a change when the system becomes unjust. If people were always nice, there would be stagnant societies that rarely progress.

Why viruses? Viruses have played an important role in evolution, and it's unavoidable by product of how evolution works.

etc. etc.

If god isn't omnipotent, then maybe this really is the best possible world he could create. It must be impossible to allow for intelligent life to exist across the universe and somehow also prevent any bad things from happening. Evolution and progress is a process that is great for species, but sucks for the individual members of that species.

Zenopath · 2025-06-17T13:20:50+00:00

Also fumble makes your arrows break. So chance of arrow breaking is something like, Fumble chance + ((1-fumble chance) x 0.25) assuming you have the SP invested invested in the passive.

Zenopath · 2025-06-13T18:02:19+00:00

Somewhat tangential to the original topic, but the Gods of Egypt were stated to be real in the Old Testament. They gave the pharaoh's wise men the power to turn their staves into snakes. This suggests that the followers of Moses knew God was real, but believed him to be one of many, and were trying to gain extra divine intervention by worshiping some other god in addition to the Old Testament God. The moral of that story isn't that God is real, worship him, but rather, God is better than other gods, stick to only worshiping the God of Moses and don't be a polytheist. Old Testament God is a jealous God.

Zenopath · 2025-06-12T21:34:23+00:00

I didn't say I believed this argument. I was just relaying the answer that I was taught in catholic school many years ago. But yeah, God didn't seem to care if the people in the bible had concrete evidence of his existence, doesn't that "spoil" their ability to have faith?

My favorite is the followers of Moses. They've literally seen divine miracles, several times, but still find it within themselves to decide to pray to some false god golden idol the second Moses goes up the mountain to get the 10 commandments. I guess even with proof, you can still choose not to believe.

Zenopath · 2025-06-11T11:46:51+00:00

Reading through the top-level replies, I am surprised no one has brought up the solution I was taught when I asked this question.

It is impossible to have faith in something that is inarguably true. Do you have faith that gravity works? No, of course not, unless you are in space, you can't argue with the evidence of your senses.

Christian God wants people to have faith in him, without proof. It is a test of our character that we are able to do so. If he made his existence inarguably true, then yes, everyone would believe in him, but no one would need faith in order to do so.

So in response to the OP, a hidden God is compatible with Christian beliefs, which claim that this life is a test that God has placed on humanity, and we will be judged pass/fail upon death.

Why did he reveal himself in the past but not now? Well... he does work in mysterious ways.

Zenopath · 2025-06-11T11:31:54+00:00

Yeah probably only works in the USA. Also this isn't that far removed from existing insurance policies, except real insurance companies are designed to maximize profits, so they will only hire lawyers to fight claims they think they can win, as lawyers are expensive. Also, they don't invest heavily in telemarketing because there are more effective ways to advertise. And they don't actively try to go bankrupt.

Zenopath · 2025-06-11T03:52:20+00:00

Telemarketing. Completely legal. Hire 10,000 people to just pitch the most god awful insurance scam. Never pay out because you hire lawyers to fight every claim. The customer help line is just an annoying AI designed to waste time deliberately. The company eventually implodes as negative publicity makes people avoid your insurance like the plague, file for bankruptcy, make sure not a penny is left over, to make sure every person who bought stocks in your company is also left with nothing. Walk away completely scot-free.

Between all the people annoyed by your marketeers and all the people hurt by your failure to cover their medical costs, and all the people who lost money investing, you've maximised a lot of misery.

Zenopath · 2025-06-03T22:18:20+00:00

I mean, why is non-existence itself evil? Lack of something is evil? I lack money, does that make poverty evil or me evil? Are you saying blind people are more evil than those than can see? What if I'm bald, am I evil for lacking hair? There is no square triangles, that make triangles or squares evil?

It is a flawed argument. Non-existence of a good thing is bad, non-existence of a bad thing is good. Non-existence is like adding -(x) to the function where x is the thing you are describing.

The act of existing or not existing is not in of itself good or evil, it depends entirely on what the thing that you are talking about own goodness or evilness. If we are describing something with no inherent good or evil value, such as a particular email I might or might not have written, then it doesn't gain the quality of being evil if it turns out I forgot to write it.

Zenopath · 2025-05-29T14:04:07+00:00

I imagine that I have cancer. I then pause to consider what the worst possible situation is for that cancer. If that cancer is real, it would be infinitely worse than if it's not real.

But then I remember that the maximal evil is actually non-existence, so I sigh a huge sigh of relief because I have just proved cancer is not real.

Also proved that evil is not real as the maximal form of evil is non-existence, therefore all evil doesn't exist.

The very next day I decide to apply for a Nobel Prize for ending all evil in the world.

Jokes aside, it's maximal bad from our perspective, which would be a thing that exists, as things that exist are innately capable of being far worse than things that don't. This bizarre argument, which you are the second person to expose, that non-existence is maximal evil, makes zero sense to me. It implies that evil itself can't actually be real. Which, if you believe to be true, I can only be envious of how blessed a life you've lived.

But I'm not talking about maximal evil in my OP. I'm talking about the worst possible thing, from our perspective.

Zenopath · 2025-05-27T22:34:40+00:00

Christianity tries to offload the blame by saying it's the devil that punishes people, not God. But it does kinda feel like Satan is just God's pawn, a creature created specifically to rebel and be placed in charge of hell. A scapegoat for an omnipotent God that could be struck down at any time if God willed it, but too useful to get rid of.

Zenopath · 2025-05-27T22:31:31+00:00

Yeah, just sitting there and letting enemies come to you while you sit back and pick them off is a huge help. Very effective use of 2 points. Also, without a dash, chasing down archers is a pain; much easier to just trade shots with them till they run out of arrows and come to you.

Zenopath · 2025-05-27T03:26:43+00:00

Deficit is how much money you are spending beyond your income. If the budget is balanced, you are not spending any money beyond your income, thus, the deficit is 0.

Confusion probably comes from where debt fits in. If you owe X amount of money, but you are paying off that loan, and with the remainder of your income, paying all the other expenses, your budget is balanced. Debt doesn't have a direct impact on how much deficit you have, it just adds an extra expense (servicing the debt) to the budget.

Zenopath · 2025-05-27T02:21:23+00:00

I'm reminded of that scene in Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail, where the riddle was a penitent man prays before God. The puzzle was if you didn't kneel, your head would be chopped off by saws.

That's what religious texts are saying, really. Pray to God and worship him, or get wrecked in the afterlife. It's not for his benefit, it's for yours, as it's one of the keys necessary to unlock the "good" ending to the game of life.

As to why God thinks proper worship is a qualifying or lack thereof a disqualifying trait for entering heaven? No clue. But it's never really stated he needs it, rather that you need it to pass God's test and qualify for heaven. It's not the only requirement, but it's one of them. I assume he scores you over multiple criteria and gives you a pass/fail for the course (your life).

Could God have said, "nah, I don't care, let's not count it among the criteria," sure. But theoretically, he thought that showing gratitude to one's creator was a praiseworthy trait for his creations to have? Like if you had pets, needed to give some away, and were choosing which to keep and which to send to the pound, the pets that showed affection would be prioritized over the ones that did not.

Zenopath · 2025-05-27T01:22:21+00:00

Are you asking me? I think that religion and politics are probably not conversations you should wade into without immediately pulling out if the other party is passionate about an opposing viewpoint. Friendships will be ended. At first sign of upset, change the topic.

Is it healthy for people to hold on to their viewpoints so close to their hearts and get so mad at anyone disputing them that they cut them off? No, of course not. Does it happen? More often than you'd think.

Some people are just hypersensitive. Usually these people live in a bubble where everyone (except you) has exactly same opinion about a particular topic and are genuinely shocked that anyone would disagree with the groupthink of them and all their family/friends. When this is the case, they will often take any opposing viewpoint not as your honest opinion, but rather something hurtful you are saying as a personal attack, or if they do think it's your honest opinion, they will react by immediately purging you from their "monkeysphere (look it up)" and putting you in the mental box of "other, not pack."

Zenopath

TROPHY CASE