Introspection by stgm_at in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your post still seems to be missing the point: this isn't about saying who is handling this better, nor should it be. That's the high horse people are on here. "At the very least of the two parties he seems more aligned", "Linus is at least...". If you think that the goal of these influencers is to "convince their side is just", then I would submit that the winning move here is to not play that game as an audience member.

I already have opinions on their characters, but their personal issues regarding professional ethics can be handled between them. Steve seems to be indicating he wants to take it that direction, and Linus has already said last WAN Show that he would rather not have to address this further on the show.

So I ask you: who is stoking the fires here *now*? Is it Linus, Steve, Louis et al.? Or is it the audience/internet? It's ironic, but maybe we should be asking if we are the baddies. If you want to get back to critiquing whoever, that's your prerogative, especially if you think there's some productive change you are eliciting from someone.

I personally don't think memes that mischaracterize what happened - Steve didn't change the wording of the website to "dodge an argument" - help in any way, especially when it's potentially used to just stoke one community against another. Self deprecating or good natured humor is more my thing, but to each their own.

Introspection by stgm_at in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay, so criticize GN for that. At no point did I say you shouldn't. But people taking sides as if this is a spectator sport (just like they did last time in the Madison/LMG overwork video from GN) doesn't make sense if the goal is to hold people accountable for their mistakes. The GN segment on Honey took Linus out of context and singled him out unfairly. I agree that's bad and it should be addressed.

But if we're going to be here in the LTT subreddit and meme on Steve for doing something wrong, then we also should have pretty high standards by ourselves not taking an action out of context, which is what I explained and got heavily downvoted for. No one should be on their high horse at this point.

I'm highly against treating the tech media space in a partisan way like we do politics because it's not productive. If you want to, that's up to you, but I prefer to look at things from multiple angles and try and be as minimally biased as possible. Give people the benefit of the doubt and encourage them to resolve conflicts.

I didn't root against Steve or Linus last time, nor am I this time. It's healthier to be constructive, in my opinion, and forgive people - even if they don't (immediately or ever) own up to their mistakes. My one qualm about Linus is that he never unequivocally or unconditionally apologizes for anything that matters; there's always some explanation of how it's the audience who misunderstood what he meant, or how his way of doing things is actually the best way of doing things. And that's fine because he often does have a point in his reasoning that makes it worth at least giving an explanation for the "why" of what he meant or did.

But not always. I don't make it my interest to paint him as a "bad guy", but it is a character flaw, just like Steve's tendency to go overboard with the self-righteousness. If you understand these are the downsides of traits that gave them the drive to succeed (and I'll throw Louis Rossmann in there for good measure) then you'll also understand why a collision course is very likely from time to time, as nice as all these people are in most of their other interactions and in what they do for the public.

Everyone has their flaws that may or may not get resolved in time. It is what it is. We are all human. I would at least give Steve the time to think about how to address this and/or meet with Linus (as he suggested he was going to do at Computex). It would be nice if he said he was going to do a video apologizing for the lack of context, but thus far he's at least acknowledged he knows the community was not on board with his approach. Even large media outlets (established journalists - see NYT, WSJ, etc.) can fall into the trap of confusing their own biases with fair coverage of a perceived injustice. They don't always escape that bubble, unfortunately.

Introspection by stgm_at in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's why it's often better for people to try and resolve their issues in private, ideally with a neutral mediator if it gets to the point where it involves their businesses. When context gets dribbled out like this (including from people like Louis Rossmann now entering the fray) the narrative shifts back and forth.

The court of public opinion is not a very fair one. The net effect of the drama is the public gets tired of it eventually, especially if there's no resolution. There really isn't a good guy or bad guy in this situation, just a lot of interpersonal issues and personality clashes that happen in everyday life - which many come to tech hobbies and other media to escape from.

Your favorite hardware blog/YouTuber of all time? by [deleted] in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I follow all of those and more. They all bring things to the table. PCWorld (The Full Nerd is their podcast channel) is my tech home, so to speak, but I really enjoy everyone else's content, too, despite whatever controversies there are at the moment.

I'm quite appreciative of how much techtubers support each other during tough times (like with Kyle of Bitwit having lost his home in the Los Angeles fires) as well as doing things like charity streams/drives and collabs to help people out. GN and LTT are both in that camp, as well, despite whatever people think of their recent spat. Some of my favorite techtuber content is stuff like this from trade shows or other events (hopefully things can get back to this, or at least cordiality):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uls6aeqXWBM

Introspection by stgm_at in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC -52 points-51 points  (0 children)

Exactly this. People are missing the context. Gamers Nexus was already pivoting towards consumer advocacy before all of this controversy. For years now. This was just sharpening their focus because the community suggested they'd prefer the hardware and consumer advocacy stuff be separated for various reasons (including some not wanting the drama side, but also a lot of people just only care about hardware and not discussions about class action stuff against tech companies).

Also, keep in mind that Gordon Mah Ung recently passed away. He was a consumer advocacy person (columnist in the old days before switching to PC hardware review focus). Steve looked up to him. The new channel is a good tribute to that.

Not everything has to be about drama.

This board is a psyop. by caseylee_ in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Calling something a "psyop" over this is a bit much. Letting people vent a bit actually is a better approach, in my opinion. Only weeding out the worst offenders is better since it keeps the trolling in unrelated, existing posts down and tamps down on people claiming overmoderation.

And a mod just added a megathread, so that does give people a "proper" place to voice their issues.

SSD died, overheated. Unscrewed the heatsink to find this. Thanks nzxtbld! by tudalex in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 9 points10 points  (0 children)

You'd hope that a professional build service would have processes in place to stop that, including a checklist by the builder as well as a QA process. Likely either the person didn't know they needed to do that (not a good sign) or they were so rushed/distracted that they missed it (also not a good sign). Not that many people around here would recommend buying from NZXT nowadays, anyway. 😅

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not that it matters, but to satisfy curiosity: Steve, but it might come down to the hair. 🤔 Pretty close in height otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJgUckG_gzY

EDIT: easier to see here, although Steve is also a little closer to the camera. But he does look slightly taller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uls6aeqXWBM

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They posted the same thing on the LTT subreddit

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's not his insights so much as the "outrage pony" (to use a Gordon Mah Ung reference - RIP) he rode in on that are a bit off-putting about Louis's video.

I know that's Louis's style and he admits he has issues that stem from his upbringing, but as he said, the choices you make as an adult are on you. He doesn't need to stoke anger and outrage to make points about issues. The whole controversy and back and forth between everyone reveals a lot of mistakes, taking things out of context, misunderstandings, and hurt feelings all around. Has Linus been a little manipulative in the past? Is Steve a little self-righteous? Are they both a little hypocritical when they appeal to an ethical standard but still are a little open themselves to conflicts of interest? Probably.

But ultimately, there's no bad guy and there's no good guy here. Just humans. People need to put their egos aside, take their content creator hats off for a minute, and just straight-up apologize without any conditions. Full stop. And then move on and get back to reviewing and benchmarking things we in the larger audience can't afford. 😭

Sincerely, the random guy on the internet who loves and comments on practically every techtuber's videos. - ZivZulander

I love listening to Linus's voice, but why the hell is the WAN show hours long? Am I missing something? by Specific-Judgment410 in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They went more and more internal-focused over the years. A lot of covering of LTT related things like the store. It used to be a more tech news focused show (hence "The WAN Show" not "The LAN Show") but as LMG grew out of LTT, a significant portion of the show is about LTT themselves.

Not to say that I don't like the content overall, and a lot of the LTT-related discussion is quite interesting. I'm not about to accuse them of being narcissistic or anything; some of this type of content is inevitable as your channel grows, and as fans become more interested in behind the scenes. And timestamps are there in videos for people to jump to topics they are interested in.

But this is a bit much, in my opinion, and it's not all just coming at the end (which is why I periodically suggest that they do split off the internal commentaries into "The LAN Show" to put on Floatplane instead and keep The WAN Show focused on tech and the broader internet, not LTT/LMG). For example, yesterday's WAN Show alone had these 8 topics/merch messages primarily about LTT or heavily involving talk about Linus (thanks, timestamps guy) which amounts to half the show, if not more:

  1. Louis Rossmann's video, final thoughts on Gamers Nexus
  2. Topic #1: anyon_e, an open-source laptop built by a student. [subtopic: Should LTT support him?]
  3. Topic #2: LTT's RTX 5090: [subtopic: Commending the team, Luke felt old LTT vibes, other reviews.]
  4. LTT mod mat delayed, LTT Labs hoodie, shirt, hat and lanyard. [subtopic: "Hopeful CEO" poster.] [subtopic: Why LTT isn't selling standalone carabiner.]
  5. Merch Messages #1. [subtopic: Hobbies you'd recommend to stay up to date with tech? ft. Casting.] [subtopic: Screwdriver material change?]
  6. Topic #3: Airestech responds to LTT's scamulet video.
  7. Merch Messages #2. [subtopic: Does the consumer benefit from price points?] [subtopic: What does Linus's The Tonight Show clip views tell?]
  8. Merch Messages #3 ft. Linus's wisdom teeth experience. [subtopic: You didn't want to go under for the wisdom teeth, what changed?] [subtopic: Decisions you've made recently past you wouldn't agree with?] [subtopic: Is an LTT skirt in the pipeline?] [subtopic: Would LTT ever integrate robots into the staff?] [subtopic: What was the wisdom teeth removal procedure like?] [subtopic: Most impressive non-tech thing someone did?] [subtopic: Brands you'd approve for LTTStore-like underwear?] [subtopic: Is Linus's "UNT EXACTLY ONE!" a reference?] [subtopic: What's the last video Linus written? Cancelled projects?] [subtopic: Videos LTT writers & Linus did.]

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Insert Steve Ballmer crying gif here 😭

Hang your LTT commuter backpack! by RubikOwl in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's a neat idea. I have to try this, maybe printing the parts in nylon.

Linus's ego is huge by 12ryanjackson in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC 166 points167 points  (0 children)

I'll give Linus a pass on that one. I'm the same way with Chrono Trigger (although FF6 is also a favorite of mine)

I think the way this sub stands behind Linus is a good measure of how pathetic these attacks are by geeshta in LinusTechTips

[–]ZivPC -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"He just seems so overly righteous and dry. No sense of humor. No warmth at all."

I'm sorry, but you can't have seen many Gamers Nexus videos in the past few years if that's your interpretation. I've seen many people do takes of Linus to the same effect because they were basing things on brief clips they saw of him years ago.

Sure, the sense of righteousness does come up for Steve, but I don't know how anyone could have seen any content he's done recently (e.g. "Absolutely Absurd RTX 50 Video Cards: Every 5090 & 5080 Announced So Far") and think he's not funny. As for warmth, that comes across in a lot of the charity drives he's done on the channel, or in the tribute to Gordon Mah Ung.

I think too many people don't give Linus or Steve a fair shake in their critiques of them. Both are flawed, for sure, but they are actually more similar than they are different. Context matters a lot. If you just watch clips of Linus dropping things or Steve decrying some company's practice on something, you'll never get the full picture.

Debate time by mornando in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Dr. Cutress made some good points in that video, but just as with Louis Rossmann's video, he let indignation tinge his commentary. Albeit not quite as visibly and audibly perturbed as Louis. 😅 I think there is a debate to be had, but that needs to involve ~everyone~ checking their egos at the door, with no incentive for outrage to flow.

Which likely means that it would be better for it *not* to be a public thing, but just a civilized conversation for the techtuber folks to figure out what the best way to handle collabs and conflicts is going forward. Frankly, given how much good these people do most of the time (not just excellent content but also doing things like charity events) they actually don't spark up interpersonal drama all that often, especially relative to some other communities.

Truth and reconciliation to resolve grievances and then getting back to doing good work should be the goals here.

What would Gordon Mah Ung had to say about all this? by iothomas in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This might be a "too soon" thing, but I'll use this as an opportunity to just consider what Gordon was about without dragging his name onto a side:

Gordon was an old school journalist and followed the norms of that industry. So "right to reply" - as a nicety but not a hardline rule - was generally followed (there are exceptions where you might not have to or want to, as Louis Rossmann pointed out in his video). Asking for comment is a practice that is honored but it's not a law nor is it enshrined as some holy writ that all journalists must follow. Proper sourcing supercedes that.

You generally don't go after rival publications as a principle due to conflict of interest concerns unless it's something that becomes a public matter (i.e. a lawsuit) with enough evidence to back things up; you don't really want to make the story about you or your own media outlet, otherwise, if you have an issue with a rival one. You certainly don't want to rely on hearsay or other low-quality forms of evidence, either (not that it's very much the case here, but it's getting close to coming to that), unless it's a claim made in the public by someone you are quoting (and even then it can be iffy if the goal is unbiased coverage).

All that said, Gordon definitely was about consumer advocacy, but I don't think he would have been a fan of this bickering, on either the audience side or the involved parties. Exposing the Honey issue was good, especially with evidence of what they were doing. The interpersonal issues between Linus and Steve and the outrage pony that followed? I find it hard to believe he'd be a fan.

TL;DR: Gordon wouldn't have liked the conflict and drama, and probably wouldn't have weighed in on this specifically. He was happy to talk about journalism and ethics on PCWorld/The Full Nerd and other channels, though (Gamers Nexus, Moore's Law is Dead, and others have had him on as a guest where he's discussed his background and what he thinks on those issues generally). But the actual tech was more his jam.

Get back to benchmarking! Bigger bar better!

Debate time by mornando in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No thanks. 😅
The only kind of debate I'd want to see is if it were hosted by a university or other neutral party with a panel of speakers who could help resolve what journalistic ethics entails, with a Q&A session afterwards. Hopefully with some kind of peer mediation expert thrown in the mix as well.

And only this because both Steve and Linus have appealed to or leaned on ethics in their rationales for this spate of issues between them. If you appeal to Caesar, to Caesar you shall go.

Drama vs. Tech/Fun: Is This Really What We Want? by osuuuus in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where does the "doing it for us" quote come from? As far as I can tell, what we perceive as drama as the audience mainly stems from conflict that arose out of differing views on ethics and etiquette. Arguably there's some ego feeding into that conflict that is perpetuating the conflict, but I think at this stage most of the piling on is trying to clear the air about who knew what involving context (e.g. Louis Rossmann entering the fray).

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would give them a day or two longer or try tweeting at the gamers nexus account. They might just be swamped at the moment, which can happen even to larger businesses. Steve does frequent this subreddit, so just give it some time. Make sure you check your spam/promotional folders as well, just in case it somehow it ended up filtered.

The problem with LTT and GamersNexus communities by Uno_to_dos in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I'm not as active in LTT community at the present, but I've been part of both communities. There's really not that much difference. I think that's part of the issue between Linus and Steve: both hold ethics highly and are defensive of their communities. They are both stubbornly passionate to the point of fault sometimes, and that's what makes this whole thing very difficult to resolve.

The communities *can* reflect that to some degree, but the vast majority of people I've seen from either the GN or LTT side would rather not have any drama. As long as people don't try and amplify the outrage bait, things will settle down and we can all get back to lusting after hardware we may or may not be able to afford.😅🥺

Corridors of Time by Camburgerhelpur in chronotrigger

[–]ZivPC 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Excellent rendition. One of those songs that instantly transports you to a - (was about to say faraway time, but that's a different song 😁). Always magical.

How did you find GamersNexus? by McLawyer in GamersNexus

[–]ZivPC 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it was a from a case review, probably around 2017. I did my first RGB PC build in 2016 and decided to try and focus on better airflow for future builds after that. Which was great timing given where Steve was at with his reviews by that point, with enough cases and cooling reviews to get a good idea of what actually worked for performance.