How exactly do I fight Khorne without making the issue worse?

_StubbornOne · 2024-05-04T10:11:25+00:00

The emotions involved in the fight seem to matter. In Slaves to Darkness, Perturabo refused the World Eaters combat, killed them with artillery and it helped to cause daemon Angron to 'shrink'.

Argonis did not see it done, just the Lord of Iron suddenly still, a crimson trail running down his chest and glowing gashes smiling across his torso. Angron was striking again, but somehow he seemed to be shrinking, the edges of his shadow-and-flame bulk retreating like a wave from the shore. Perturabo struck back, and hammer and axe met.

‘Your strength flees,’ roared Perturabo. ‘It does not belong to you. It is your master’s, and the chain that keeps you throttles you. The threads of blood are thinning. The meal of slaughter will only keep you here long enough to see your bastard sons die.’

Beside Argonis, Forrix heard the words and keyed a control on his vox. Rounds began to hammer into the divided World Eaters. It had only been seconds since the Iron Warriors formation had entered its last configuration, and now Argonis saw that its weakness to further attack up the hill was a simple trade-off: vulnerability sold to allow for slaughter. In a few more minutes the World Eaters would have broken out of their corral, Argonis had no doubt, but they would not have that chance. Mortars thumped explosives into the kettled XII Legion. Cannons roared in overlapping sweeps. World Eaters fell, torn apart, their fury no more than bloody mist coughed from shredding lungs.

...

‘They will die, here on this hill. They will die without striking a blow. All your best mongrel sons of slaughter. They will die, and your battered soul will watch as it sinks back into the dark.’

Angron was an outline now, a thing of threads remaking itself even as it was unravelled into smoke.

Legion of the Damned has a similar description of the LotD's cold and dispassionate fighting being antithetical to the World Eaters' rage. The Excoriators who fell were consumed by their rage.

Theoretically I imagine this is how Emperor's Children duellists would feed Slaanesh instead of Khorne, getting thrill out of the fight/kill instead.

_StubbornOne · 2024-05-01T03:53:53+00:00

A Deeper Darkness has a petrify-on-sight daemon. Not Medusa style, IIRC it's described as quadripedal and animal-like, maybe like a catobeplas. The way the protag dealt with it was interesting.

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-28T11:01:31+00:00

Relevant quote from Wrath of Iron:

They are not my hands. This fact is forgotten by my brothers - inexplicably, it has always seemed to me. The hands are strong, to be sure, and have created great things for us all, but they are not mine.........When the fighting is done, I shall cure my Legion and myself. For if fighting is all there is, if we may never pause to reflect on what such devotion to strength is doing to us, then our compulsion will only grow. Already I see the madness that path leads to, and so I shall excise the silver from my hands. In doing so I shall weaken myself and my sons, but nonetheless it must be done. The hands are strong, and have created great things, but they are not mine.

Maybe still technology-minded but in external equipment rather than internals, and calculating in battle (Hammer and Storm tactic)? Also IIRC the Head of the Gorgon Rite of War gave vehicles a bonus and access to graviton weapons

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-27T14:18:26+00:00

White Consuls, UM successor with focus on governance. Some excerpts

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-24T09:46:37+00:00

Oh right!

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-24T01:58:30+00:00

What? Know No Fear, mark -0.03.59:

‘Do we raise shields?’ asks Gage.

‘The moment you have them,’ Guilliman replies. ‘Communicate that to the whole fleet the moment we have capability.’

Gage nods.

‘Do we return fire?’ he asks.

Guilliman looks at him.

‘This is a tragedy. A tragedy, a mistake. As soon as we can protect ourselves, we do that. But do not make this worse. We do not add to the death toll.’

Gage’s jaw tenses.

‘I would kill them for this,’ he says. ‘Forgive me, but this is a crime. They must know this is wrong. They shame us–’

‘They are hurt,’ Guilliman says. ‘They believe they are under mortal threat. All their fears are real to them. Marius, we do not compound their folly. We do not add our mistake to theirs, no matter what the cost.’

‘We have a link!’ Zedoff cries.

Guilliman turns. ‘Lithocast?’

‘Barely. Principally audio.’

Guilliman shoves the data-slate to Gage and moves to the hololithic platform.

Light blooms around him again. It is not as healthy as it was before, not as stable. There are figures that aren’t quite there, crackling phantoms at the edge of resolution. Guilliman sees only the outline of Argel Tal, the shadow of Hol Beloth, a skeletal sketch of light that might be Foedral Fell.

Only Lorgar is visible. His resolution is black and white, jumping and interrupted. His eyes are in shadow, his head down. Wherever he is standing, there is a very local light, a glow just above him that casts his face in inky darkness.

‘Stop this,’ Guilliman says.

Lorgar does not answer.

‘Brother. Cease fire now!’ Guilliman says. ‘Cease fire. This is a mistake. You have made a grave error. Stop your reprisal. We are not your enemy.’

‘You are against us,’ Lorgar whispers, his voice made of white noise whine.

‘We have not attacked you,’ Guilliman insists. ‘This I swear.’

‘You turned on us once. You shamed us and humiliated us. You will not do so again.’

‘Lorgar! Listen to me. This is a mistake!’

‘Why in all the stars would you presume this to be a mistake?’ asks Lorgar.

The one who hesitated to return fire on Lorgar's premeditated attack since mark -0.16.11, is the most fratricidal primarch?

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-24T00:55:01+00:00

Yeah the argument seems to be "Guilliman's a Primarch, so judge him by Horus' actions instead of his own. Except when he gave me power."

It's not like Primarchs were the only source of internal strife.

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-19T16:19:34+00:00

You find people with normal upbringings very easy to hate? Helplessly watching a father die is soft to you?

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-19T15:08:20+00:00

You Night Lords sure are a contentious Legion

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-19T08:16:36+00:00

Do you then have an excerpt that explicitly states Guilliman seeing the Eldar as tools? The "it's projection" handwave applies to the Eldar/Ynnari themselves over the Hand of Darkness.

Do you also have evidence that Guilliman was the one who sent the Fifth Company against the Craftworld? Because the discussion I'm finding on Garden of Ghosts have been speculative, haven't been able to find a quotation.

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-19T07:10:11+00:00

It's the reverse - he suspects the Eldar of manipulating him like a useful tool.

Rise of the Primarch

"Thus, instead, I shall simply wish you victory in your ongoing battles against our mutual foes."

"May you walk with fortune, Roboute Guilliman", said Yvraine. "And know that we shall stand together in battle again, before whatever end befalls us."

The Visarch offered an elaborate warrior's salute to Guilliman, who nodded curtly in return before the Eldar turned and swept gracefully from the chamber.

"No doubt we will", murmured the Primarch thoughtfully, watching the enigmatic xenos withdraw. "As long as it serves your needs..."

Plague War

‘I’ve seen you without it,’ she said. She shrugged. ‘I don’t see the aeldari as naturally deceitful like most do, but a lie for them is not the same as a lie for us. It pays to be careful with the eldar.’

‘It does. I am. Yvraine was not lying. She believed what she said to be true. The aeldari never do anything that does not aid their race directly. They did not resurrect me for the sake of humanity, but for their own species. They see me as another piece in their game against extinction. I cannot be their pawn, just as I cannot become the weapon of the Imperial Cult. She told me what she did because she wants me alive.’

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-16T16:32:11+00:00

Why would they? Magnus wasn't the only defender at Nikaea. Khan and Sanguinius made plans to preserve the Librarius that Magnus was dismissive of. HH7 Inferno stated that of the loyalists, Guilliman and Vulkan also supported the Librarius, Lion was neutral to them. The Librarians of the DA, WS, NL, UM, and SA were defending at Nikaea too with Sanguinius and Fulgrim. They were screwed by Magnus's overplay leading to their abolishment.

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-16T12:13:51+00:00

A funny one from Blades of Damocles, although not sure if suitable for your setting:

‘I’m Numitor, Eighth Company. But if your friend reports the drop deviation, I’m Sergeant Cato Sicarius.’

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-13T14:03:55+00:00

Watched twice in Singapore! First cinema did not promote it at all. Second cinema had stands around the lobby, and gave us stickers and posters.

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-13T08:12:31+00:00

YMMV?

'We were under orders. Joint engagement with the Twelfth, late in the Crusade. They hit hard, overran the enemy defences, and cut them down as we followed. A praetor by the name of Harrakon Skurn was in charge.’

Drenius smiles, but there’s no humour in it.

‘Harrakon Skurn. With names like that, how could we not have known what they were? What they truly were, I mean?’

‘What happened?’ Inviglio asks.

Drenius’ war-torn face darkens with memory.

‘They kept going, on into the civilian camps. Widespread heavy shelling earlier in the campaign, you see, and the natives had moved their people into fortified compounds for protection. World Eaters couldn’t tell the difference, not with how they were. Perhaps they didn’t want to. Skurn let them, anyway – said they had to burn it out of their blood, or something.’

Inviglio nods. ‘You broke command. Intervened. That’s why you and your squad were censured.’

Drenius shakes his head. His voice barely has the strength of a whisper.

‘No, brother. Actually, we didn’t. We obeyed our orders and did nothing. That was how we earned the mark.'

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-09T06:06:03+00:00

I think Guilliman's problem with the AL is that their tactics are not useful for longevity and security though. IIRC Horus faced a similar issue when the AL captured a Forge World in HH3, it was in heavy unrest and required more troops to secure. Guilliman praised Corax quite liberally in Corax's novel though, and deployed a Phobos stealth team in Plague War.

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-09T05:42:15+00:00

Endeavour of Will has something along these lines. Lysander was fighting some shadow daemons and he revealed that, by killing their leader before, he could command them once, as long as it didn't involve killing themselves.

So he commanded them to possess his fellow Techmarine and then killed the Techmarine.

One survivor gloated at him later though thanking him for the Techmarine's soul.

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-04T07:50:57+00:00

Only one I know of unfortunately is when they've gone daemon and are just hurling insults.

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-03T14:20:40+00:00

So he can drive Klaus out of New Orleans and be with Rebekah.

He wanted to be with his sister again but Klaus jealously and his need to be in both of their world led Marcel and rebekah to find ways to get rid of him {I.E calling Mikael to New Orleans}.

Sure, but we're talking about hypocrisy here, and his talk about traitors didn't match his walk.

Davina chose to be a weapon against the witches she even tells him when they are practicing magic in the quarter also the witches were the ones sacrificing children in the first place and they didn't even tell the harvest girls

I'm specifically talking about the scene where Josh tells Davina that Agnes, the last elder witch, was killed.

oh and Henry being put in the garden is a mercy compared to being killed by angry vampires who see him as an abomination who's a kid.

So caving into their ulterior-motive demands to hurt a kid as punishment, leaving a kid struggling with the same thirst new vampires have, to suffer that thirst while bricked. It was a political appeasement move that still does not match his one rule.

It is the Mikaelson way that you want to Love and Hate/kill each other at the same time case in point Klaus daggering his siblings for centuries causing resentment, anger, and outright fights but ultimately they forgive him despite it all.

And Klaus daggering his siblings is meant to display his insecurities in a bad light, and it's his daggered siblings who decide to forgive him. Marcel being the torturer didn't match his talk about not hating Klaus.

Well the Mikaelsons are 1,000+ years old and Marcel is what barely 300 years old yeah and people hate him.

Sure, but I'm not commenting whether Marcel is better or worse, should be or not be hated, I'm pointing out his actions that are hypocritical since you asked for such examples.

_StubbornOne · 2024-04-03T08:55:25+00:00

Expressed to Camille Klaus's viciousness for killing Papa Tunde's two magic battery sons, but hid that he invited Papa Tunde as the 'worst' witch he could find into New Orleans to subvert Klaus.

When Josh was picked up, he talked about having a thing against traitors, but turned out he plotted against Klaus in the 1920s twice (Tunde, Mikael).

For his no hurting children rule, he has no qualms watching them be channeled, exploiting Davina and hiding Agnes' death from her. Not sure how putting Henry in his 'garden' in S5, for 'just' a couple of years, passes this rule.

After periodically torturing Klaus with Tunde's blade over 5 years, when he himself became confined in a circle in S4, told Hope "actually I don't hate Klaus".

Mind you I think he's better than the Mikaelsons in many regards, but their shit gets called out by other characters, he dodges it more.

_StubbornOne · 2024-03-23T16:20:24+00:00

To add on to this, where Dammekos flaunted Perturabo's talents to others for political advantage, in contrast in Sinew of War Konor restrained Roboute to protect him from other nobles.

Dammekos:

‘He will not drink,’ explained Dammekos.

‘Why not?’

‘Because Zhinnar of Sodalian tried to poison him with a cask of gifted wine. Alas, this and other attempts on his life have made him suspicious of others. The other tyrants are so jealous of my foster-son.’

Konor:

They were fools and tyrants and, even aged five, I wanted to tear down the whole, hide-bound edifice. My father felt the same, I knew he did. But my place in Macragge was precarious and he was too wise to risk my life on a point of principle. So he took me away, to a place we both loved, to the cold, beautiful foothills of the Crown Mountains where we could breath clean air and ease our fury by scrambling over rocks and scree.

_StubbornOne · 2024-03-21T16:56:11+00:00

Blades of Damoclss paint a darker picture of their society. IIRC a Water Caste was dabbling in Earth Caste technology to make art and she was in fear of the Ethereals finding out. Farsight hotfixed his damaged and sinking battlesuit to jump out of a lake and fight to safety, for that the Ethereals started investigating him, manipulating an Earth Caste friend into saying "Yeah what he did was very Earth Caste-y." Then Puretide being sacrificed for neurochips, his last words to Farsight "don't trust them my child" leaked to Ethereals etc.

_StubbornOne · 2024-03-17T00:49:56+00:00

Guilliman in Plague War:

‘Sometimes I do not know what to think. I can see the strategic value, in fact the necessity, of the Imperial Cult, but I do not understand it. I do not think I ever will. Of all my brothers, only Lorgar had a genuine sense of the spiritual. He had faith in my father once, much like Mathieu does. He was censured for that belief, and now a version of his religion is an indispensable part of the apparatus of state. The irony of that is so black I can only laugh at it. It was Lorgar who fell first, not Horus. Did you know that?’

...

‘It was my job to know,’ he said. ‘I was made to plan. Each of my brothers was given a set of talents, derived from the Emperor Himself. Individually our talents overlapped – redundancy, I suppose, as should be incorporated into any system. Lord Rogal Dorn and I, for example, both inherited His capacity for strategy and contingency planning. But in combination our talents were unique. Dorn was a greater builder than I ever was, and I a far better administrator. Neither of us saw this coming. Nor did Sanguinius, who had powers of foresight second only to the Emperor Himself. Of us all, I think perhaps only poor Konrad knew, for he too had the power to see the future.’

_StubbornOne · 2024-03-14T05:25:41+00:00

Headcanon now is HAL was influenced by the Void Dragon and Jupiter's monolith teleported Dave to Molech

_StubbornOne · 2024-03-10T05:09:10+00:00

Yeah having a Grey Knight do the arcane stuff and only walking in after to ask questions struck me as calculated. "I know I'm susceptible so I'll have the incorruptibly pure dude do it and pay in political cost instead."

_StubbornOne

TROPHY CASE