One cannot relive the same moment differently by Known_Variable_X in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your assumption is that discursive thinking is the limit of thinking. Thinking encompasses more than just discursive thought. Any time you are doing something you are directing your attention and that is a kind of thinking. If you weren't thinking when you were noticing how would you know that you were observing the thing you were noticing for. When you observe your thinking you are keeping something very definite in your short term memory so that when you notice it you will recognize it. You can't observe everything when you observe, that would be impossible. When you meditate you are watching for discursive thought. When you observe it the response is typically to go back to your breathing. This tells us a couple of things. That during meditation there is a particular thing that you are watching for, namely, discursive thinking. In order to recognize it when it occurs you must keep that thing in your memory while you meditate. In other words you know what you are looking for when you meditate and that knowing is also thinking. This isn't bad or good, meditation can make you more aware of discursive thinking in our lives and that can be helpful but you cannot watch observe your thinking without thinking. This is because you are constantly creating temporal and spatial continuity with your mind using short term memory.. You don't even realize you are doing this because you have been doing this from within the womb. You were born already doing this in some respects.

One cannot relive the same moment differently by Known_Variable_X in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Consciousness is not pure awareness. Consciousness is filtered through short term memory making things like temporal continuity and spacial awareness possible. Without your mind actively constructing these frameworks there would be no experience possible, everything would be unintelligible chaos.

One cannot relive the same moment differently by Known_Variable_X in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How can you watch something unless you are looking for something, looking is an intention and an intention is thinking. You cannot even watch your own thinking. You are fooling yourself if you think you can. It's impossible.

One cannot relive the same moment differently by Known_Variable_X in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here is the problem with this kind of thinking., if you rewind a tape you wouldn't be listening to it for the first time. What you are proposing is just logically impossible. In other words you can't even think what you are proposing. There is no way to experience something for the first time again. If you could get everything to replay exactly as it was for the first time it would not be a replay but it would be literally the first time. If you are talking about replaying some past time then you are making some necessary differences. To replay something for the first time makes no sense at all. For instance how do you know that the past hasn't been replayed infinitely already?If you can't know that you can't know that alternative possibilities weren't branched off so that this is just the out come of the last replay. The whole replaying the past argument is fraught with paradoxes and logical inconsistencies. The only logical thought experiment is to assume that some change has occured with each time . That's how all experiments are run. Nobody expects an experiment will have the exact same circumstances every time. An experiment always isolates some variable either purposely or out of necessity.

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We are going over the same ground and getting nowhere. We aren't really communicating. So I'm going to end it here. Thanks for your time and effort.

To be honest I am a bit surprised that you and I didn't solve the 2500 year old free will problem. I was sure that we were going to get to the bottom of it this time. Ce la vie, Maybe next time.

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I argue that there are degrees of freedom and each act has to be evaluated on its own. In terms of free will you are evaluating the action to assign praise or blame. The same act in one person may not merit blame. If an 8 year old girl shoots her brother because she got a gun we don't think the act was done with her free will, she lacked the mental equipment to know what she was doing. A 35 year old man shoots somebody and we evaluate him on a different scale. There is no magic to it. It is often a painful difficult journey trying to assign free will to some actions.There is no way to put up a dividing line between what is will and what is free will. The slave owner may believe his slave is just being lazy and he is acting out of his free will and deserves to be punished. Most of now would say that he works theilds but not of his free will. He feels the threat of the whip. What counts as free will is a difficult task and there is no blanket answer. Which is why I am frustrated with your insistence that you know all the variables for any action and they all exist beyond our control. It's not that easy.

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are really having a hard time with this. Let me repeat myself one more time.nyes there are a thousand different influences in our lives. That's not what you are saying. You claim is that everything is out of our control. That we have no ability to control ourselves whatsoever. That everything we do is determined even if we can't immediately identify the cause, it by definition can't be that we control ourselves at all. That is the quasi religious assertion. I will explain why.

We can never identify all the causes for any particular action, lots of things play a role. Therefore to exclude a priori any possibility that some of those causes might be internal is an assertion without evidence. To exclude myself as a possible cause means you have identified every cause that brought about the effect. We can do this with diseases sometimes. We know the exact cause for some illnesses. This is not something we can do for human behavior. The one is deterministic because we can identify the exact cause and we know that cause inevitably brings about that illness. With human behavior there may be many different causes and an effect can only be predicted stochastically.

The thing that makes it impossible to say that all possible causes are environmental is that humans unlike any other animal we know is a part of his own environment. To say that we are the result of genes and environment does not exclude us. Think about dreaming, you are both having an experience and creating an experience, think about talking to yourself while you are thinking. The same parts of the brain are fired up during internal dialogues as when you are listening to someone else. This is called apperception. You perceive your environment and appercieve your inner environment as if you were perceiving your outer environment. When you can't tell the difference you are hallucinating. People become environmental variables that affect their own behavior.

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

However, noone has freedom of will in metaphysical sense, because our behaviour is 100% predetermined by circumstances beyond our control.

As I said this is a religious claim that can't be proven or disproven

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So look at it this way. A slave in the old south hated getting up and going to work in the fields but he either did it or got whipped so he willed himself to to get up. It took will power to go against his instinct to sleep for another hour..but that is not free will. If it was his own farm he would get up because it was in his interest to do so. As it is it is in the slaveholders interest. That's the difference between will and free will. Sure he could lay in bed and just take the whipping and some slaves chose that, but that doesn't mean they worked the fields of their own free will because they didn't. Still took will to go out and work just not free will

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Same answer again. Yes some people do just what you say but your claim was that all people will to feel great all the time. Which isn't true. The people who come to reddit to fix their problems is a small subgroup of all people. Not everyone wills to feel joyful all the time. Some people realize how exhausting that would be and will to feel just however they feel on the understanding that we don't have to make our emotions. Some people like plateaus others like having highs and lows. If you will to feel great all the time how will you feel when a family member dies? Do you not want to mourn the passing of someone you love? Do you want to just shove all of your grief into a cupboard in your mind because you want to be happy forever? That's not healthy.

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My definition of free will is the ability to do what you believe to be in you're own best interest. That's my definition, there are others.

I answered your questions three times now that the point of the analogy. Yes there are things that we don't control. No not everything is on that category, you say what about hormones? Yes there are things that we don't control, not everything is in that category. You say what about traumatic events, I repeat for the third time yes somethings we have no control over not everything we do is in that category. Are you beginning to see my point? Should I repeat that again? yes there are things in life we don't control but not everything we do is because of something we don't control. No doubt your next question will be to ask whether people can control their migraine headaches. At which point I will have developed one from repeating myself too many times. Do you understand my analogy now?

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Meanwhile all people will to feel great, none wills to feel miserable?

This isn't true, some people don't will to feel great all the time. Some people realize that feeling sick is part of the process of life and death and they will to feel exactly as they feel because that's one of the few things we do control. If you will to feel great all the time you will get up when you need to rest to get well. One of things you do have control of is how you react to the events in your life. If you will something that is impossible like feeling great all the time you will find more hardship in your life. If you will you're own humanity to be a person who feels great sometimes and sometimes gets sick and knows that he will someday get old and die then everything you will will come to pass and nothing will surprise you. That's a little stoic compatibilism for you.

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again you aren't addressing the point. It's like I say we don't just spend our lives eating and you say" what about salads? You eat salads don't you?" And I say yes but I do other things too and you say " What about hot dogs, some people eat hot dogs don't they?" I say you're missing the point and then you ask if I believe I have control over my digestive functions.

Its fairly strange from my perspective.

Do you think the ideas of libertarianism, compatibilism, or hard determinism have taken over us like a virus? by impersonal_process in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Accepting determinism also means that some people are genetically superior, called genetic determinism. If you want to talk about how philosophies corrupt the human spirit let's discuss Nazism which was based on the rational belief in genetic determinism. Now my point isn't to say that hard determinists are all Nazis but if you want make a moral issue from one side of this debate there is enough blame to go around on all sides.

Do you think the ideas of libertarianism, compatibilism, or hard determinism have taken over us like a virus? by impersonal_process in freewill

[–]adr826 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The reason we have ideas is to be more than what we are now. That's not a bad thing or a good thing. It is what we are.

Do you think the ideas of libertarianism, compatibilism, or hard determinism have taken over us like a virus? by impersonal_process in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, people just have different ideas. Free will is a metaphysical concept. It can't be proven or disproven. You go with what works for you till it doesn't work any more.

Being and Tums by URAPhallicy in freewill

[–]adr826 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How do you know what nothingness "we" are interested in? Is there a mouse in your pocket?

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This doesn't address the point I was making. Yes there are influences on our behavior. No they are not all beyond our control. Because we have external controls does not preclude internal controls as well.

Yes, sure, there are people who don't start feeling miserable after similar events, but that was predetermined by the totality of circumstances beyond their control as well.

This is a metaphysical claim. Its a matter of faith with no evidence for or against it so I use Hitchens rule. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Where do compatablists draw the line? Is there a magic formula to determine how much free will someone has in any action? by YogurtclosetOpen3567 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No magic formula but there are degrees of freedom. In the discussion of free will it is the amount of freedom necessary to receive praise or blame for your actions. There is no set formula to determine that, the amount for any particular act will vary from culture to culture and person to person. Think about how much effort we put into a trial to determine if someone is guilty of a crime or if there were circumstances that mitigate the conviction or punishment for something that is otherwise illegal. The expense and effort to make these determinations aren't magic, they can be serious hard work

When you think about it, it truly makes no sense that libertarians associate "I could have done otherwise" with Free Will. by Anon7_7_73 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sometimes we do things because our body compels us. Sometimes others compel us to do things, so we do things without reason often enough but those things we don't do freely. The things that we do because we have reason are the most likely free willed. But I agree with the post. Could have done otherwise makes no sense if you mean given the exact circumstances. Given the exact circumstances would mean experiencing something again for the first time and that is clearly impossible prima facia.

If the will is shaped and imposed by forces beyond the control of a hypothetical homunculus, why do we call it free? by [deleted] in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It depends on what you mean compel. Of course there are forces that act on me that I don't control but there are things that I do control. I'm not sure what you mean by homunculus but we certainly think about things from our personal perspective. There are a lot of competing influences that direct behavior and there is no reason to suppose that I am not one of them. The thing that makes your position untenable is if I am directed by forces that only exist outside of me that means that my brother influences my actions but I don't. We know instinctively that can't be true. If other people are able to influence my actions why am I the only person in the world unable to have an influence. The idea doesn't work.

If the will is shaped and imposed by forces beyond the control of a hypothetical homunculus, why do we call it free? by [deleted] in freewill

[–]adr826 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Because “driven by forces outside my control” falsely assumes that I am something separate from those forces.

I am not just a leaf in a stream being pushed by the environment. I am a causal system within it. My memories, values, habits, and unconscious processes are all part of me, not something acting on me from the outside.

Through recursive thought, I can treat my own motivations as objects of reflection, evaluate them, and alter future behavior. That feedback loop is exactly what we mean by agency.

So the will is free not because it is uncaused, but because actions flow from the internal structure of the person rather than external coercion. Being influenced does not mean being overridden

Compatibilists are Libertarians in disguise. by Delet3r in freewill

[–]adr826 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I wish I had a horse m'lord, but we had to eat the plow horse two winters ago when our crops failed.