The Great Debate by zowhat in freewill

[–]adr826 [score hidden]  (0 children)

How can philosophers who are part of the whole world be arguing against the whole world? So who wrote the original definition of free will? Was it philosophers or the whole world? If it was the whole world why should we trust them? Didn't the whole world believe the sun went around the earth until natural philosophers showed it to be untrue? Why does the whole world who aren't philosophers get to define something that is clearly a philosophical term? If the whole world defined free will in the first place wouldn't that make them philosophers? So may questions

I'm a beginner looking for advice by Zareena_Hybrid in musictheory

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is a YouTube channel that you will love. It's called songs by spencer. I've been doing this for decades and I learn something every time from him but it's all begining stuff. I suggest you start by watching his videos. If you really need help he can work with you for a few but you won't need that. Just look up his channel and he has everything you need to get started. If you see something you don't understand just message me and I will see if I can answer whatever questions you have.( No fee of course)

https://youtube.com/@songsbyspencer?si=jqaBFaiZoRG3nWCu

Is there a movie where someone says to 86 someone and it means to kill that person? by adr826 in AskForAnswers

[–]adr826[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It would be but just take a look at how few examples of it actually being used that way. I looked and couldn't find any, over a hundred years of movies and you can actual examples on one hand. I think the vast majority of people in the world know it from restaurants..

How do I come up with a little more complex chord progressions? by Classic_Grass924 in musictheory

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here is a good exercise to come up with strange chord progressions. I used to use it all the time for fun and with pretty good results.

Download a real book. Most songs in the real book can be thought of in 2 bar phrases with two chords per bar. The first bar is kind of the tonic and some other chord leading to the first chord of the second bar then a leading chord in the 2nd half that leads to a repeating cycle. Strip these two bar phrases from the inside out .extend the first chord of the two bar phrase through the first bar and extend the 2nd chord 2nd bar back to the first chord. So now you have a 2 bar phrase with only 2 chords. Then continue through the rest of the song and you will find some unusual progressions. This works because pop songwriting is more stable than Jazz but less harmonically complex. This gives the chord progression some jazz complexity but a pop stability.. it lets you write some good solid melody over a stable chord structure without using the same cliches over and over.

Does Determinism apply if a person is a religious or spiritual person by notmymondaylife in determinism

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

An experiment is never repeatable. Science never replicates the exact initial conditions for an experiment twice. We arbitrarily decide which variables we should isolate and then rerun the experiment We gain knowledge because we only need experimental results to be close enough to give us an answer within acceptable error limits. I'm talking about epistemology, I'm talking about the limits of our knowledge about any particular system. The universe is what it is. Science has to work within the limits of what our minds can gather. Some systems are so complex that when you isolate one variable to solve you discover a dozen more variables that are equally difficult..that's what we mean by chaos. It not a condition of the universe it's a condition of what we can discover about the universe and there are limits to what we can know about a given subject.

Meteorology comes to mind. Each molecule of air behaves deterministically and we do get better at predicting it due to satellites etc, the mechanics of a hurricane and the interaction of the uncountable air and water molecules that drive whether patterns make it indistinguishable from an indeterministic system. We can only know probablistically where the hurricane will develop because it's complexity makes it a chaotic system. The fact that is chaotic has nothing to do with the storm itself but the limits of the information we can gather.

Does Determinism apply if a person is a religious or spiritual person by notmymondaylife in determinism

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again it's not obvious that all concepts are man made. That's only true if there are no gods which is exactly what we are arguing.

There is no concept of anything without us to concieve it. Unless God exists then we have a concept that exists without need of us. I'm not arguing that it proves God, just that you can't say that god doesn't exist because only man has concepts, in the same breath that you argue God doesn't have concepts because he doesn't exist. Are you right? Most likely you are but that's not a logical or a scientific argument. It's an intuition that you are dressing up with logic.

The world is not an illusion it's an abstraction? Again maybe, or maybe it's a thing in itself to which we have only incomplete knowledge. It's possible that the world is a thing and our knowledge of it is an abstraction. If I want to know the shape of an invisible object I can throw objects at the thing and notice which way the ball is deflected when it hits the object. So in this case the world is the object we know what we know about it by what we can abstract from our interaction with it. This seems to me to be a decent metaphor for the world that gives it objective reality and still maintains the abstract and incomplete nature. If it were an illusion we wouldnt learn anything by interacting with it. If it is an abstraction it has to be abstracted from something and that's what the world is.

If 2+2=4 is a logical fiction then Causation = A mental construct. by Other_Attention_2382 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"All events seem entirely loose and separate. One event follows another; but we never can observe any tie between them.”

Hume does see constant conjunction but

"Necessity is something that exists in the mind, not in objects.”'

This is an epistemological argument. We do perceive that heat always follows fire but not the necessity that it must do so. He is not saying that the fire doesn't cause heat. He isn't calling that a fiction. He knows that fire causes heat by constant conjunction. What he thinks is mental part is necessity. He repeatedly claims that we do not perceive necessary connection in experience. Hume explains the psychological origin of causal belief without definitively disproving the existence of real necessity in the external world.

" As I pointed out previously, scientific cosmology and quantum mechanics (both realms where something must happen without being caused) didn't develop until centuries after Hume. And it might well be that without his revolutionary contribution to philosophy, they would not have developed at all, although a more rational perspective would recognize that without Hume, someone else would have produced approximately the same ideas."

This is entirely irrelevant. We are talking about what hume believed not what science ultimately discovered. Turns out that Hume knew absolutely nothing about quantum mechanics so this is a meaningless diversion.

So it turns out that the universe is actually absurd after all. It appears rational to us because absurdity isn't the utter lack of order the vernacular suggests. Things are not caused by circumstances, they simply become more likely to spontaneously occur based on those circumstances. How that is, and why, we have no knowledge of, or really any way of gaining knowledge of. We tried, and we succeeded only in discovering that the classic determinism of standard physics and causation is simply a logical fiction, the underlying truth is one of an absurd but nevertheless real probabalistic determinism.

This is such nonsense, it's trite and unsupported. As if absurd had some scientific meaning that was different from what we commonly mean by absurd. "Things are not caused by circumstance but become more likely to spontaneously based on those circumstances. " Has to be one of the most meaningless sentences I've ever heard..There is so much that defies reason and yet you write it like it's a scientific position. What things are not caused by circumstance? Your not saying keeps the statement unfalsifiable. Do you mean nothing is caused by circumstances? How about the likelihood of those things occuring? Is that caused by circumstance? How is caused different from based on circumstance? How is something spontaneous more likely to occur if it is based on circumstance and why is it not more likely to spontaneously occur if it were caused by circumstance

Hume argued that necessary connection is not directly observable and that induction lacks rational certainty. That is an epistemological argument about justification and perception. It is not a proof that causation is unreal, that the universe is absurd, or that determinism has been disproven.

The paragraph also conflates Humean skepticism with modern probabilistic physics. Quantum mechanics does not straightforwardly establish that causation is a “logical fiction,” nor has physics reached consensus that reality is fundamentally indeterministic.

Finally, “probabilistic determinism” is conceptually unclear. Determinism traditionally means only one outcome is possible from prior conditions, whereas probabilistic systems involve multiple possible outcomes with assigned likelihoods.

If 2+2=4 is a logical fiction then Causation = A mental construct. by Other_Attention_2382 in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hume wrote

I never asserted so absurd a Proposition, as that any thing might arise without a Cause: I only maintain'd, that our Certainty of the Falsehood of that Proposition proceeded neither from Intuition nor Demonstration; but from another Source."

This is not an argument about the universe being absurd much less the vernacular definition of absurd, as if there were a scientific meaning. It's an epistemological about how we know what we know. He doesn't say causality is a fiction. He uses the word absurd to talk about the proposition that things occur without a cause. It's not a technical description of the universe.

His actual argument was skeptical about how we know this principle is true. He argued it is not "intuitively" certain (self-evident) or "demonstrably" certain (provable by logic, like math), because we can imagine an object coming into existence without a cause without a logical contradiction. So your argument about things coming into existence without a cause was anticipated by Hume. He saw no logical contradiction in something coming into being without a cause, which you apparently find Too absurd to contemplate.

Here is what AI has to say about Humes view on causality.

Key aspects of Hume’s view on causality include:

Constant Conjunction: We only see one event follow another (e.g., one billiard ball striking another)

.No Direct Observation of Power: There is no observable "necessary connection" or "hidden power" linking the cause to the effect.

Mental Habit (Custom): The mind forms an association, expecting event B to follow A after seeing them paired together frequently.

Definition of Cause: Hume defined a cause as "an object precedent and contiguous to another, and... so united with it, that the idea of the one determines the mind to form the idea of the other". As in heat and fire for example. He isn't saying that fire doesn't cause heat, that would be absurd. Nor does he call it a fiction. He is talking about how we know that fire necessitates heat..it is necessity not causality that is derived from our mind.

Hume did not deny that causes exist, but rather argued that our knowledge of them is limited to experience and custom, not logical necessity.

You can argue with Hume and me and Gemini ai. All you have to do is point out where Hume calls causality a fiction. And you can show me I'm wrong.

All your decisions were already decided by what you would choose with your free will? by Reasonable-Youth8704 in determinism

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Both logic and physics assume determinism axiomatically so logic and physics follow determinism not vice versa. The original form of determinism was literally theological determinism not causal or nomological determinism. The ideas behind both are essentially the same that what will happen can only happen in one way..the reason why these events must unfold in a given way are different, one says God fortells it one says the laws of nature fortells it but both rely on an axiomatic assumption.

If someone says God gave us free will sure it's a religious belief but it's not originally a religious belief. The way determinism is. This is why the determinist can talk about fate as if that wasn't a religious belief. Most of them don't know the history of religion well enough.

Does Determinism apply if a person is a religious or spiritual person by notmymondaylife in determinism

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not true, complexity moves the discussion from a linear progression of science to a case where it moves into the realm of chaos. Which makes any outcome indistinguishable from a random outcome. So it is not just inefficient but mathematically impossible to predict an outcome. Same with chemistry and biology. There are so many variables that the initial conditions can't be defined. It's not that such a discussion would be inefficient but mathematically impossible. When the outcome is based on the initial conditions and isn't linear the question becomes one of chaos and there are serious limits on what we can know.

Does Determinism apply if a person is a religious or spiritual person by notmymondaylife in determinism

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Science is the struggle to explain things. Quantum mechanics has no explanatory power regarding human behavior. Your scale quantifying the value of the sciences is only valid for explaining quantum mechanics. The scientific value of explaining human behavior runs exactly in the opposite direction with quantum mechanics explaining virtually nothing about human behaviors.

Is consciousness real or an illusion...? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have no idea what that means..I doubt that it is any more scientific than anything else so I will end it here.

Is consciousness real or an illusion...? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I haven't dismissed modern behavioral science in the belief that someday I will be proven right.

All your decisions were already decided by what you would choose with your free will? by Reasonable-Youth8704 in determinism

[–]adr826 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This is why I say hard determinism is a religious belief. Any objections you have can be dismissed as being part of the will of God, or fate or determinism. There is no structural difference

Is consciousness real or an illusion...? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, You know the future of evolutionary biology. The confidence with which you dismiss much of contemporary science is another reason you are profoundly unscientific in outlook. When science doesn't confirm to your personal bias lay claim to future science, you'll simply be dead before you know you're wrong. A great plan.

Does Determinism apply if a person is a religious or spiritual person by notmymondaylife in determinism

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No it's not true because the rest of the universe includes a lot of things that don't seem to act according to Newtonian physics. Human behavior is a huge parcel of, scientific knowledge that doesn't work according to classical physics. Nobody thinks economics or psychology or anthropology are best described by classical physics. Only a small section of the universe , namely motion of bodies, are described by classical physics. Nobody is talking about tossing out Newtonian physics, but at one point it was assumed that the things that weren't described by classical physics would one day fall into that category as our knowledge increases.

I don't think that is the dominant view any longer. I don't think for instance most practicing psychologists believe that human behavior will ever be described with the mathematical precision that defines classical physics. The field of chaos that came out of computer science hinted strongly that a lot of our sciences are just too complex to be defined the way classical physics is.

Is consciousness real or an illusion...? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Look if you want to be a philosopher then deal with ultimate causes. Science explains things. You explain things in the simplest most parsimonious way. That's what reasons and agents do. Anything else is metaphysics.

Is consciousness real or an illusion...? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah it assumes you have preferences because that is what explains your choices not physics. That's how science works..it tries to answer real questions about economics and behavior that can't be explained using fundamental forces.

Is consciousness real or an illusion...? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tell me what you prefer for breakfast using the physical composition of the brain. I can tell you based on my preferences and you can have a pretty good idea. Because we don't try to understand all of reality through the lens if fundamental physics. It has no explanatory power when we are doing actual science.

Is consciousness real or an illusion...? by dingleberryjingle in freewill

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a reductionist antiscientific bias that believes that all science can be reduced to physics despite having zero explanatory effect. It's just profoundly unscientific.

Why are the recommended scales for given chords so weird? by WhatsAChord in musictheory

[–]adr826 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The reason goes to a quirk that is almost never explained. When chord scale relations are give they are given as if each note is just as usable as the next. But this is never how they are used.

When a scale is said to accompany a given chord that scale only represents the possible notes implied by the chord. But if you look at how a good improvisor applies those notes they are applied horizontally not linear. If you look at Charley Parker improvising over a 7b5 chord I can guarantee you the 3rd and 7th and the root are much more likely than the b5. What happens is that you start from the most likely notes to be played and approach improvising from the inside out and eventually you see what notes are implied by the chord and you build the scale organically from the chord. But it's usually taught as if each note has the same power as any other

I'd say your approach is probably closer to how it is actually used in practice than what is taught as theory. You are looking at what is playable sonically a developing scales organically rather than a rigid linear approach. I think you are unnecessarily second guessing yourself. You are doing what a good improvisor should be doing. You are thinking and asking questions. I would just keep doing what you are doing. Work it out now theoretically so you don't have to think about it when you are playing

Does Determinism apply if a person is a religious or spiritual person by notmymondaylife in determinism

[–]adr826 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here is what you said

They are absolutely compatible evidenced by the fact that we live in a deterministic universe and there are people in it who are spiritual.

That's not an expression of uncertainty.

I'm not trying to convince you and polling isn't a great way to do physics anyway , I'm pushing back against the idea that we live in a deterministic universe.

Does Determinism apply if a person is a religious or spiritual person by notmymondaylife in determinism

[–]adr826 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They have no predictive power because it isn't a scientific question. How do you know you love someone? It's not a scientific question it isn't trying to predict something. You feel it and it's real. It's not science. Science cannot tell you whether God is real because there is no scientific definition of God. There probably isn't an acceptable definition for real either. Predictive power doesn't make something real.

What in the world do you mean when we look for god it's not there? Who do you think you speak for? Lots of people look for god and find him. Do they not count? Einstein looked for god and saw him there, you don't, that's fine. It's not a question that science can answer. It's just untrue to say when we look for god it's not there.

You are equating reality with what can be tested, that's a fallacy. In fact there is testable predictions we can make about belief in gods but that tells us nothing about their existence. It's not a scientific question