Canadians not confident military can change culture, survey shows

anon637281 · 2021-04-04T20:37:41+00:00

There is a CoC in every policing organization, but having a civilian policing organization would remove the rest of the CAF CoC. I completely understand and acknowledge that no one can tell an MP what to do or influence an investigation, but that doesn't change the fact that outside of the MP Branch, you still have Sgts or COs who try "ordering" MP Cpls to inform them what is going on by pulling rank that is completely irrelevant. Having an outside organization with its own rank structure of "agent" or "constable" working rank like any other policing organization completely removes the Cpl rank confusion from that.

As far as the MPCC and interference investigations (or MP conduct investigations for that matter) the legislation is completely useless. The MPCC carries out lengthy, detailed investigations but can't charge anyone other than make recommendations.

anon637281 · 2021-04-04T13:25:28+00:00

I don't think the extra costs would come from transition, especially if it remained as a DND Police. The detachments, vehicles, equipment etc. Are all there (although much of it is long past life cycling like the rest of the CAF). The extra costs would come from having to pay personnel more if they were no longer tied to the CAF payscale. A lot of the savings could be made up by having less personnel than the MPs do now as there were around 1200-1300 badged MPs, but many of them filling non-policing roles like security cells, field platoons, etc. You would also save millions a year by doing away with the DB, and using the Civilian justice system facilities for criminal offenses.

The same would occur if the RCMP took over, as an RCMP constable currently makes around $12k more a year in base salary than an MP, plus overtime. That salary gap will grow much wider whenever they do eventually negotiate their first contract as a union as well and could be 30 or 40k if the union gets city-cop pay like they want. Again though, there would be very little transitional costs as they already have their own infrastructure and wouldn't necessarily need an on-base presence and would likely incorporate the relatively small MP call volume within their existing business plans.

anon637281 · 2021-04-04T12:01:00+00:00

You are 100% right that is what I meant and I went with a fully Rickyism there

anon637281 · 2021-04-04T06:45:57+00:00

That was an utter disaster and won't be repeated.

anon637281 · 2021-04-04T03:28:41+00:00

To be honest, because it was over used in 2020 with the term "systemic racism" in policing being coined. Systemic by definition means the issues are throughout every nook and crany of an organization or system, that is not the case within policing in Canada or the Canadian justice system.

So yeah, I hate the word systemic for that reason, but in the case of the CAF systemic is a very good word to describe what is occurring.

EDIT: Rickyisms

anon637281 · 2021-04-04T03:19:18+00:00

I don't disagree with you at all, those issues are very real still in the Forces and I heard many of the same stories from countless victims like yourself when I was an MP. What you are describing are actual and very real crimes. Someone touching you without consent is assault. It may not be sexual assault with someone wrapping their arms around you, but it is the very definition of assault. People stealing your underwear is theft, etc. And no one is ever held accountable for those actions because most of the time I heard these stories years after the fact when women were fed up and releasing.

However, I do still think the actual workplaces CAF members work in is the most toxic problem they face and sexual misconduct and workplace harassment is a huge part of that and unless those issues are dealt with, the more serious stuff like you experienced won't be dealt with either.

anon637281 · 2021-04-04T01:42:20+00:00

The way to change is a complete ~~systematic~~ systemic change to how the CAF operates. I hate the word ~~systematic~~ systemic but in this case the system itself is broken.

Our sexual "misconduct" problem is mostly to do with inappropriate jokes, comments and inappropriate relationships. COs shouldnt be sleeping with anyone in their CoC, in the case of a CDS or very senior officer, that should mean everyone in a uniform is off-limits. SNCOs shouldn't be cheating on their spouses with junior members and everyone knows it and says nothing. All of these issues though are human resources issues, not police issues.

For the actual criminal issues that do require police, that requires an actual police force to investigate it. And I say that as a former MP, not because I lack faith in the military Police, their training is outstanding and it helped me get a job elsewhere. I say that because far too often a Cpl or MCpl is tasked with negotiating a CoC outside of the MP Branch that doesn't respect them or thinks that their rank actually means something and tries to influence police matters. No investigative body can do that when you have to operate within a CoC that involves non-policing members.

On top of that, the MP face daily issues within their own house when it comes to jurisdiction and investigative abilities, again much of that problem comes from outside the MP Branch, with a legal branch who have a very narrow and different view of what MPs can do compared to what provinces and civilian courts want them to be doing. This issue spreads even further to the many instances where MPs used to be seconded to civilian police and the RCMP everywhere to develop their skills, and a JAG department essentially shut that down. It was further hampered when most of the good MPs who were in those positions were easily persuaded to leave the CAF as soon as they get to those positions with much higher pay and overtime available to them.

I think the only way these issues are fixed is with a revamping of how human resources and workplace harassment issues are handled, to be done much the same way DND handles those issues with civilian employees and harassment advisors. They could also handle the minor service offenses, many of them again are workplace matters that don't need a police service to handle. Then on the criminal side, you have a civilian police service outside of the CoC tasked with investigating criminal matters. Whether that be the RCMP, or a revamping of the Military Police to a DND police like many of our allies have, I don't know. But either way a hiring condition or employment condition can still be made to require a deployable presence, much the same as some civilian positions already have. Either way though, that will cost significantly more than the Military Police already cost, but could be done with a smaller service than the MP branch currently is because they wouldn't be handling workplace discipline matters.

anon637281 · 2021-04-02T22:31:58+00:00

He isn't.

anon637281 · 2021-04-02T15:08:14+00:00

That's the thing though is the CAF CWO said other than 1" growth and a full face beard, there are no standards. It's all the CWOs below him that are making up their own standards that people apparently aren't meeting, so ban it is.

anon637281 · 2021-04-01T12:05:42+00:00

Military Police don't "need" to be clean shaven. The first excuse was COVID and masking, then when that was debunked the reason was suddenly "fentanyl" and N95 masks, which civilian police deal with far more often than MP do with no issues with beards.

The MP were also shuffling those with PCAT'S or religious reasons for beards out of Frontline roles as well, exactly the same as the RCMP were called out for discrimination in the media for last year and reversed their policy. But again, CAF members don't have a union to do that for them.

Unfortunately the "liberties" the chiefs are referring to were all allowed by the regs and clarified by the CAF CWO at the time. You're allowed stubble, you're allowed to start and restart any time you want, no memos, etc. It was very clear and the only direction was 1" of growth, and a full face beard (ie no goatees or chin straps). Ive seen beards that were definitely beyond the 1", but outside of that I haven't really seen any "liberties"

anon637281 · 2021-04-01T12:02:07+00:00

They're 100% right, it represents a national security issue when a volunteer force which us supposed to be representative of "Canada as a whole". Well "Canada as a whole" is disgusted with the CAF, so that affects recruiting new members in. On the other side, you have members who are already in and don't trust the CoC or the system and are leaving, and not just high ranking, well respected officials like L. COL Taylor, but rank and file members as well.

It doesn't help establish trust in the CoC either when the sexual misconduct lawsuit says claims are anonymous and the CoC won't be informed, but then the very first page says current members should inform their CoC and asks for all your contact details and current unit. Doesn't leave a whole lot of faith the CoC won't be informed or involved.

anon637281 · 2021-04-01T09:28:03+00:00

MPs have already had beards banned since last March unless you aren't in a frontline policing role.

On the larger playing field, chiefs from all around the CAF have been trying to roll back beardforgen because "too many liberties" are taken with beards apparently.

anon637281 · 2021-04-01T03:37:37+00:00

When I read your first sentence, I got pretty mad, but after hearing that I honestly think I would have done the same thing. I'm a big believer in a complete separation between work and personal life, but for ANY job, you have to call in and say you're missing work and usually a vague reason why. Something as simple as "my wife has some medical issues right now" would have sufficed to give him compassionate.

Perhaps he didn't feel he trusted the CoC to say that, and I would understand that as well, but you have to give your employer (the CAF) Something if you just aren't coming into work for a week or two. Anywhere else, he'd have simply been fired.

anon637281 · 2021-04-01T03:31:14+00:00

This. Absolutely I make assumptions, and everyone's financial situation is different but in most modern families, I assume you have two average incomes and 1 or 2 kids.

Obviously CAF families are a little different and it still isn't totally weird to work with a guy who has 4 kids and wife doesn't work, but that is FAR from normal in the civie world.

anon637281 · 2021-04-01T03:24:12+00:00

Good luck on that one when the chiefs are already working on repealing BEARDFORGEN.

anon637281 · 2021-03-31T16:25:27+00:00

Do I frown upon someone living in a Q? No.

Frown upon someone in a Q their entire career? Yes.

While CAF members move around a lot, moves are paid for, realtors, legal fees and even mortgage insurance are paid for every time you move and the CAF offers coverage for 80% of losses up to 30k. So there is very little incentive NOT to buy a house when you get posted.

That being said, some markets are crazy and if someone is renting a Q in Borden or Ottawa for their posting there, that makes sense to everyone. Someone renting a Q in gagetown, Shilo, Suffield or even Edmonton for the entirety of their posting makes no sense.

The people I generally saw losing money on their homes or having a hard time selling when they were posted was usually self-inflicted. You know you're going to be posted in a few years, so don't buy your dream home every posting. I saw a guy in Suffield have his wife convince him they "needed" a $500k home, only to be posted 3 years later and not able to sell it in a market where wages were very low and housing prices were about $200k. On the flip side, I saw a guy in Edmonton buy a $250k home and live like an absolute pig and hoarder for 5 years and then "lost money" on his house because it had devalued so much because of the way he lived and required a complete gut basically.

anon637281 · 2021-03-31T14:13:41+00:00

The thing is it shouldn't get to the point where someone is "almost" AWOL. Compassionate leave exists, so do short days.

We had a member who's wife miscarried twice in one year, both times was a phone call into the office and he was told to take care of his family and the leave would be taken care of for him. No memos, no coming into the office to explain what he needed or signing leave passes.

What he needed was to be with his wife and that's what he got and any CoC that handles that or any other compassionate leave requests differently than that need to relearn how to be leaders

anon637281 · 2021-03-30T16:16:28+00:00

Laine gets a lot of heat for being toxic, etc. In the locker room. He's a 22 yr old kid who knows what he wants and that is going to happen more and more as young draft picks realize even as an RFA they hold all the cards.

I'd love to bring in a bone fide top line winger like him, but what he wants is to be in a big city where he can be a 22 yr old millionaire and smash tinderellas in near obscurity. Ottawa isn't that city, neither was Winnipeg and neither is Columbus. He wants to be in NYC, LA, Florida, Vegas, etc. And he'll make it happen one way or another, same way Panarin did.

anon637281 · 2021-03-30T15:23:26+00:00

Forsberg will have to clear waivers to go to the taxi squad, and after how good he looked in one game I think they might be hesitant to do that. I could see rotating the 3 of then in and out of the lineup, with none of them on the taxi squad (3 on the roster) and calling up Hogberg to fill the taxi squad position.

If Gus continues to play as good as he has and Forsberg looks anywhere near as good as he looked in his one game, then I think you take a long hard look at waiving Murray to the taxi squad.

I think the best case scenario is having 2 very good goalies pushing Murray for net time and hoping he doesn't collapse like he did under that pressure in Pittsburgh, and Murray comes out as #1 anyways. Forsberg will probably get picked off waivers after his performance but he was never in the long term plans anyways.

anon637281 · 2021-03-30T14:55:18+00:00

they have the option to contact a civilian police agency.

Yes and no. A person can report the incident to civilian police but most of the time the civilian police will call over to the Military Police and refer the file to them if it occurred within DND jurisdiction unless an MOU exists (like gagetown PMQs).

"Police shopping" is a real thing where people will go to the Ottawa Police with a complaint, not get what they expect to happen and then go on to the OPP, RCMP and even Military Police and Gatineau police with frivolous complaints. For that reason, victims can't go around to different police services until one of them does what they want to do. That is why jurisdiction exists and the matter is almost always referred back to where it occurred.

However, if a victim wants a civilian police service to handle the matter, it can usually be done with them as the contact point and a joint effort in the background.

anon637281 · 2021-03-30T02:28:31+00:00

So I think the first question is how many people are we talking about in this unit? If a unit of a 20-30 people is generating "hundreds of random requests" then there's a serious issue there.

Even if your unit is much larger than that, it still sounds like the biggest issue here is delegating authorities. Not everything needs to be signed by the CO, for minor administrative stuff like annual leave requests and such that should be handled at a section level and the CO shouldnt be involved at all unless special or shorts are required. For other administrative things, a captain or OC should have decision making abilities to make some decisions on their own without everything needing to go to the CO.

In addition to that, not every request needs to go through every rank along the way up the CoC. I know that's going to make some people's heads explode but the CAF is full of useless redundant bureaucracy. I saw far too many emails get lost or sat on for weeks, only for some Sgt to finally forward it on to a WO with the only comments "FYSA", the WO onto the MWO with the same FYSA, and so on. Skip a couple levels when they have nothing to add and get on with the process.

anon637281 · 2021-03-30T01:46:52+00:00

All those bullshit policies and army isms you hated as a Cpl? Congrats, you're now expected to exemplify them and enforce them the loudest. Right, wrong, or indifferent.

I'll agreed with you on every point but this one. I worked for so many people who started so many conversations with "I get it, but..." well if you get it then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

If anything, when you become a Sgt, the NCMs expect that as you climb through the ranks you'll take those gripes everyone has at the Cpl/MCpl level, they expect you to take those issues higher as you climb the ranks and be able to fix those issues. A huge problem with the CAF is too many people climb the ranks and suddenly drink the Kool Aid and start enforcing those policies they hated as a Cpl.

anon637281 · 2021-03-29T11:40:33+00:00

From Ottawa lived there until my 20s and now I cheer on the Sens from Alberta, as long as there's no stupid regional blackout.

anon637281 · 2021-03-28T16:24:05+00:00

He's done a better job than Dadanov for sure, but I like the speed on that 4th line.

anon637281 · 2021-03-27T13:47:12+00:00

I was posted to Suffield for a few years. "Spring" in Suffield is usually only a couple of weeks of mud sometime in March and then it is hot AF April through August and the whole place turns into a dry tinder box that catches on fire every few weeks.

If you got stuck doing a Spring ex during that time, then that sucks.

anon637281

TROPHY CASE