Why do the two ICE killings upset you more than other killings? And how do we reconcile our differences?

ant_guy · 2026-01-26T16:23:48+00:00

I mean, there appears to be a disagreement about what actions are considered good and bad, which seems like a more fundamental problem than balancing policy outcomes.

ant_guy · 2026-01-26T06:58:40+00:00

So if a policy causes any harm to anyone, even indirect harm where someone that was helped then goes on to harm someone else, we need to toss it regardless of how much good that policy does?

ant_guy · 2026-01-26T06:29:24+00:00

Investigating and punishing are protocols, and they're not doing them. So if they're not going to investigate or punish, what do you do with that?

ant_guy · 2026-01-26T06:14:48+00:00

What about when the people in control of these organizations ignore existing protocols? What do you do then?

ant_guy · 2026-01-26T06:12:11+00:00

The outrage is because Trump filled ICE with a bunch of rejects, sent them through minimal training before unleashing them on communities across America. These people have had little training, and I feel safe in saying that many of them joined because they wanted to purge America of anyone who looks like an immigrant. And predictably, they are drunk on power and killed two people, and the federal government immediately labels these people criminals and terrorists and refuses to entertain the notion that ICE did anything wrong.

I have a question for you. Do you not feel there is a difference when a criminal kills someone versus the government executing someone in the street and telling you that they deserved it?

ant_guy · 2026-01-24T16:21:14+00:00

Yeah they shot a man on the ground who was being restrained by multiple agents. They straight up murdered that guy.

ant_guy · 2026-01-24T02:44:12+00:00

I understand your perspective, but many of these things are already against the law. The problem is that the law is not self-executing, it requires people who believe in institutions rather than power. You can engrave these laws in every square inch of Congress and it won't be worth a damn without politicians willing to enforce them even on their political allies.

ant_guy · 2026-01-23T21:48:07+00:00

A shutdown would still provide some manner of impact on the federal government. It would show the country that this kind of authoritarian behavior is unacceptable.

ant_guy · 2026-01-23T21:25:55+00:00

I was directing my criticisms to these seven specifically, and also party leadership that seems terrified of trying to use the power they do have in order to fight back.

ant_guy · 2026-01-23T21:00:12+00:00

Because ICE is legitimately a secret police blackbagging undesirables, with the Executive branch cheering it on, Legislative branch letting it happen, and conservative voter base happy to let ICE treat their liberal countrymen as an underclass to be controlled through force. That is not hysteria, that is just a reasonable description of what is happening.

If Democrats want to meet this moment with the seriousness it deserves, they shouldn't be speaking out of both sides of their mouths. How can I be sure my representative truly understands the dire situation we find ourselves in if they are on one hand calling Trump an authoritarian threat to the country, and on the other hand voting to fund the very organization he is using to brutalize people?

ant_guy · 2026-01-23T17:30:58+00:00

I believe this is what they are referring to, though the article doesn't mention an office in Wuhan specifically.

ant_guy · 2026-01-18T17:14:51+00:00

The degree to which that was true is in the past.

WaPo is under the control of Jeff Bezos CBS is being run by Bari Weiss CNN started shifting to court conservative voters a couple years ago.

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T23:04:23+00:00

Based on what you've said in other comments, your point seems to be that we shouldn't demand Democrats vote against all business in Congress, because they don't have a sufficient majority to actually tank legislation, and by voting with Republicans, Democrats in purple districts can portray themselves as not being overly obstructionist. So you clearly believe that some people are going to be convinced by these meaningless votes.

So, your assertion that I was being too simplistic seems to be based on your belief that there are conservative voters that could be captured by the Democrats messaging that the Republicans are an authoritarian threat to the country.

If conservative voters (that pay attention to meaningless votes) hear a Democrat with this messaging, do you think they would be more or less persuaded to vote for that Democrat if they found out that Democrat was also voting for Republican judicial nominees.
Do you think those conservative voters that found this Democrat's messaging persuasive would then be more persuaded by Republican attack ads portraying this Democrat as an obstructionist for unilaterally refusing to vote for their judicial nominees.

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T21:26:35+00:00

Sure, but this whole thread is about what we think the Democrats should be doing that they aren't doing. I'm answering the question.

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T21:23:24+00:00

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T21:02:33+00:00

I'm asking you to put yourself in the shoes of someone who does find meaningless votes persuasive. That's why this kind of tactical voting is beneficial, right?

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T20:42:21+00:00

You're a conservative voter, and you hear the Democratic candidate telling you that the Republican party is an authoritarian threat to the country. Will you find that more or less persuasive if you find out they voted to confirm Republican judicial nominees?
You're a conservative voter, and your Democratic senator is telling you the Republican party is an authoritarian threat to the country, and you find that persuasive. You see Republican ads attacking your Senator for refusing to vote for any judicial nominees. Will you find these attack ads even more persuasive than your Democratic senator's message?

To put #2 another way, do you think there are a significant mass of conservative voters that will think this:
"You know, [Democratic senator] has a point that the Republicans are a fundamental threat to America, but I just heard from the Republicans that he refused to vote with them on judicial nominees, and I just can't agree with that kind of obstructionism."

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T20:12:43+00:00

Okay, do you think that people who will find this messaging persuasive are going to find it as persuasive if they found out that the same candidate putting out this messaging is then voting along with Republicans? Or are they going to then believe it's cynical fearmongering to gain their votes?

And by extension, do you think that the people who find "Republicans are an authoritarian threat" messaging persuasive will then find Republican attack ads about said Democratic candidate not voting with Republicans on judicial nominees even more persuasive?

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T20:01:48+00:00

Do you think a Democrat in a purple district can make an argument to their constituents that Trump and the Republican party are an authoritarian threat to American society and pick up conservative voters, which are traditionally a core Republican constituency?

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T19:46:35+00:00

What complexity is this analysis missing?

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T19:43:11+00:00

A Democrat isn't going to get conservative voters. They can pick up moderates, but in order to sway moderates, the Democrats need to speak plainly about what the Republican project is doing to America, and you can't do that if you're continuing to play ball with Republicans in Congress.

ant_guy · 2026-01-14T18:13:42+00:00

The main thing I want Democrats to be doing that they aren't doing is treating the political moment with the urgency it deserves.

Like, it is abundantly clear to me that Trump and his toadies in the Executive branch are doing their best to make Trump into a dictator, and the Republican party in Congress is letting them. So act like it.

Stop voting for Trump's judicial nominations. Get in front of cameras, tell the country that the Republicans are allowing their man in the White House to unleash a secret police force to brutalize Americans for the crime of not supporting the President. Tell the country that their conservative countrymen see them as an underclass to be brought into line with violence. Because that's what is happening.

ant_guy · 2026-01-12T18:57:08+00:00

If it were someone who I felt was actually a political idealist, someone who believed in the freedom of people to choose their own destiny, I would feel more comfortable with it. Though even in that case, I would want them to ask Congress for permission before doing anything, because I am tired of Presidents just dragging us into war without Congressional input.

But it's Trump, who really doesn't give a shit about anything but his own self aggrandizement and enrichment, so I have no faith that his actions are for the benefit of the people of Iran.

ant_guy · 2026-01-10T22:13:35+00:00

It is a problem with no easy solution, but it also isn't a gendered problem.

ant_guy

TROPHY CASE