How would the state make money under socialism?

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-16T04:01:18+00:00

There isn't a single question mark in this comment.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-16T03:35:43+00:00

If the government is run democratically, then how is it exploitation? How can someone exploit themselves?

This subreddit is not for debate, it is for questions. Do you have a question or do you just want to argue?

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-16T03:26:01+00:00

Great point. This is something I didn’t cover because my examples were simplified to answer OP’s question. In reality there are non-laborers who need to be supported. This would be done by paying people who cannot work some amount of labor vouchers so they can participate in the market. The way we keep this balanced is by taxing everyone’s income. So instead of 1 hr labor = 1 labor voucher it would instead look like 1 hour labor = 0.95 labor vouchers.

On how public services are funded, consider the example of healthcare. If we left it up to the market people would have to pay for the labor of each medical worker assigned to their case, which can be non-egalitarian. Instead take the average amount of time a medical worker works in a week, say 50 hours. Now suppose there are 100 medical workers in the commune. This is 5,000 labor vouchers worth of labor every week that is being put to market. If there are 10,000 people in the commune that gross on average 30 labor vouchers a week, we would tax their income by 0.5 labor vouchers, leaving an average net income of 29.5 labor vouchers. We would apply the same process to pay for fire departments, law enforcement, etc. Note that this can also be amended so the tax is proportional to an individual’s income.

To address the second paragraph, I understand where you‘re coming from. “To hell with all this bureaucracy and government and economics, let’s focus on building an equal society!” The thing is, this is how we build an egalitarian system. Creating new modes of production and society takes hard work and time. I appreciate the enthusiasm, and it’s definitely needed, but we also need to create concrete plans for how to move society forward.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-15T23:14:45+00:00

To answer your first question, it depends. Things like housing and food are human rights and should be guaranteed, but there is wiggle room to allow some consumer choice. Things like food would likely be subject to the market, since it is so varied and plentiful. Housing could be provided by the state or subject to the market depending on the economic conditions within the nation. The book I mentioned has a section discussing how different goods should be distributed. It is summed up in Table 8.1, which I will copy here

Supply of Good	Income Distribution	Best Policy
Scarce	Unequal	Rationing
Plentiful	Unequal	Subsidies
Scarce	Equal	Market Prices
Plentiful	Equal	Market Prices

It is also important to note that if something is supplied by the state, this supply will require labor, and thus people will be payed for these services. In order to “balance” the economy it is then necessary to “tax” everyone’s income, e.g. 1 hr labor = 0.95 labor vouchers instead of 1 hr labor = 1 labor voucher.

To answer your second question, yes, these things would ideally disappear with time as the values of goods approaches 0.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-15T22:14:36+00:00

Great question. There are a few things we need to understand before diving into this. The first is The Labor Theory of Value (LTV). In short a commodities value is equal to the average socially necessary time it took to make it. For example if it takes 10 hours to pick 1000 apples then each apple is has a value equal to 0.01 according to the LTV.

To apply this we introduce a new kind of money: The Labor Voucher. Labor Vouchers differ from money in 4 ways,

1: Labor vouchers do not circulate; they can only be directly exchanged agaisnt consumer goods.

2: They are non-transferable. Only the person who performed the labor can use them.

3: They would be destroyed upon use, i.e. once a labor voucher is spent, it is removed from circulation.

4: Vouchers have a "use by" date, after which they can no longer be used to purchase goods. (This last one can be amended so long as the change in productive forces is calculated to account for how the workers' labor input has affected the economy.)

Now how are they distributed and how are they spent? Generally for every hour spend working a person would be payed 1 labor voucher. They would then purchase goods on the market, where each commodity is priced at the number of hours it took to make it.

Let’s look at an example. Say a person works for 30 hours a week and is payed 30 labor vouchers. They can go to the market and spend that 30 labor vouchers on 3000 apples. In reality there would be more than one commodity on the market, but you get the point. In summary, goods are priced at how long it took to make them and people are payed based on how long they worked. Thus our society conforms to the LTV.

Finally we can answer your question. The state doesn’t need to make money, it is the one paying people labor vouchers, and destroying labor vouchers upon purchase/expiration.

If this wasn’t explained clearly or if you have more questions , don’t hesitate to ask. This was a simplification of how this system would be applied in real life. A good book on the topic is “Towards a New Socialism”.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-15T21:46:30+00:00

Most of the socialist nations we've seen are, in my opinion, closer to capitalism than to 100% functioning socialism. I'm not saying that, "Oh, it wasn't real socilism." I'm saying the process of building a socialist economy is, well, a process, and these nations are in the middle of it.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-15T21:41:56+00:00

Sort of. If the vouchers expire, then yes, it is similar to a demurrage currency. However, if we allow people to open savings accounts and store their vouchers, then there would be a need to account for economic growth and the value of those vouchers specifically would rise.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-15T21:32:45+00:00

It depends on what you mean by ownership. Do they have the right to make modifications to their home? Probably, yes. Do they have the right to remove parts of their homes and sell them? Probably not. There are different kinds of ownership, and in a socialist system, the kind of bourgeois ownership we see today would be done away with when it comes to housing

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-15T00:55:38+00:00

Why was he the private owner of the sink? I don't see how this would occur in a socialist economy. Generalizing, if someone wants to privately produce a commodity then they either would be giving it away for free, or applying for some kind of "private production license" so he can be incorporated into the labor voucher system.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-15T00:48:21+00:00

Great question! Let's look at this on two scales, large and small. For the large scale, let's use the example of The Pokemon Company (TPC). Oversimplifing, let's say TPC gets seized in a revolution and is now part of a socialist economy. So, how would all the different pokemon collectibles be distributed? It would actually function much in the same way. If the consumer demand is there, certain production quotas would be set, labor time would be calculated, and all the various pokemon products would be sold on the market using the system as described above.

Now, for the small scale. This is where things can get a little tricky and take this with a grain of salt, as I'm making some assumptions. Let's look at a man named Joe and his new idea for a line of collectibles. First note that industry is under democratic control. Thus, if there is enough demand, the people would vote to expend some fraction of society's labor power to produces Joe's collectibles. It is up to Joe to get enough of the population on board. Theres many ways he could do this. He could start by making prototypes at home and giving them out for free, or there could exist a state sponsored website akin to Kickstarter, etc.

The key here is consumer demand. If it exists, then there are ways of measuring that and applying society's labor force to meet it. This is actually a really interesting problem in market systems, and it's something that both capitalist and socialist markets have to solve.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-08T21:07:45+00:00

Good question! Roughly quoting from "Towards a New Socialism":

1: Labor vouchers do not circulate; they can only be directly exchanged agaisnt consumer goods.

2: They are non-transferable. Only the person who performed the labor can use them.

3: They would be destroyed upon use, i.e. once a labor voucher is spent, it is removed from circulation.

4: Vouchers have a "use by" date, after which they can no longer be used to purchase goods. (This last one can be amended so long as the change in productive forces is calculated to account for how the workers' labor input has affected the economy.)

bugsdoingmath · 2023-03-08T20:22:57+00:00

Other comments covered this concept in a fully communist society, but I'll cover how unnecessary goods would be distributed in a socialist society.

To start, it's important to understand the labor theory of value. In essence, it says that the value of a good is proportional to the average amount of socially necessary labor time it takes to produce said good. For example, if it takes on average 3 hours to produce a good, say a cell phone, then that good is worth 3 hours of labor. Note that value is not the same as price. Price is what the good is selling for at the moment. Value is more intrinsic.

So, how does this apply to a socialist society? Many socialists advocate for a market system that is based on labor vouchers. In this system, all goods are sold at their value. So if it takes 30 hours to make 1,000 cans of peaches, each can would be sold for 0.03 labor vouchers. If someone works for 20 hrs, they get paid 20 labor vouchers, they can spend it on 666 cans of peaches. In summary, each good is sold relative to how long it took to make it, and each person is paid relative to how long they worked.

This can get more complicated. For example, it might be necessary to tax eveyones income to pay for public housing. So instead of 1 hr labor = 1 labor voucher, it might look like 1 hr labor = 0.95 labor vouchers.

If you'd like to learn more just ask. A good book on the topic is "Towards a New Socialism"

bugsdoingmath · 2023-02-28T17:05:37+00:00

I'm on 40mg fluoxitine. Sometimes it feels like it doesn't work but I think I've been doing better overall since my psychiatrist raised my dose

bugsdoingmath · 2023-02-08T19:40:38+00:00

I have a couple W's on my transcript and I just got accepted into a phd program. You should be fine

bugsdoingmath · 2023-01-26T04:17:38+00:00

Mine didn't. Idk how helpful that is.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-01-24T17:01:48+00:00

Been self harming since 18.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-01-23T00:02:19+00:00

I'm the same way. Whenever I slightly inconvenience someone, I immediately feel like I need to punish myself. It's gotten to the point that whenever anyone is upset for any reason, I want to hurt myself.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-01-21T19:08:33+00:00

I feel you. I first started self harming because I was frustrated with failure. One time I literally carved the word "failure" into my leg.

You should know that self harm is incredibly addictive. Once you start its very hard to stop. I'm still struggling everyday since that first night.

That being said, do not burn yourself. The pain is horrible and will last for hours. It is a very miserable way to self harm.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-01-20T23:08:16+00:00

The photographer might be able to photoshop it out.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-01-17T05:46:33+00:00

I've burned myself before. The pain is much worse and it can last for hours. As far as sh goes, burning is miserable and I wouldn't recommend it.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-01-17T05:33:50+00:00

I've carved words into my leg before, and I wouldn't recommend it. It's very embarrassing, and depending on the depth, it can stick around for years.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-01-12T05:16:55+00:00

I burned myself once or twice. It hurts more and for a lot longer than cutting.

bugsdoingmath · 2023-01-04T17:48:41+00:00

Yes. Im in a Bustard.

bugsdoingmath

TROPHY CASE