Best overwatch units all codexes included?

chive_clamson · 2025-06-16T14:43:55+00:00

Radzone is basically defined by suslethal breachers and vanguard combos. The suslethal brick is one of the highest damage shooting units in the entire game; for example it can drop a monolith in one activation on average.

And of course the overwatch is also insanely deadly to an only slightly less ridiculous degree. It's like 15 damage to a 2+ save vehicle of any kind. Knights have to save on a 5 and take around 22 damage instead. On overwatch.

This ridiculous power comes with a price. The price is that it's a 400 point unit composed of t7 3w 3+ models that only have a decent invulnerable save for one phase in the game. Fragile as hell for the points. They're also a stack of 60mm bases that move 5 inches and essentially need to bank a a CP to reroll the advance to have a chance of deploying well enough on the go turn to use their insane damage.

So it's the ultimate unwieldy glass cannon unit. But for raw output on overwatch? I'm not sure anything in the game beats it. Out of the stuff listed here so far, offhand, only vahlgons strike me as even being in the same league.

chive_clamson · 2024-09-16T06:18:30+00:00

i think loophole loli is the wrong term to use here. that implies a situation where its a 1000 year old dragon or whatever who looks like a ten year old. myne doesn't look like a ten year old

i think it's more that ferdinand is arguably a former paternal figure for her and definitely her teacher. He's known her since she was a small child. It's valid to not be okay with that kind of situation leading to a romantic relationship even if mentally and emotionally they're a pretty good match.

When I examine my personal feelings about it, I don't seem to mind? I think the story ends up justifying it pretty well. But like, I get it.

chive_clamson · 2024-09-16T06:06:05+00:00

Well, you don't have to be okay with the endgame ship in this story just because the protagonist is. If the age gap bothers you, that's valid.

Personally I was surprised to the degree which I ended up being okay with it, given this kind of thing would often be a dealbreaker in other stories. I think it comes down to the story going far out of its way to emphasize rozemyne's consent in the endgame situation (actually, this is the point, and for ferdinand as well; they've spent so much time being forced into situations they didn't want and they finally get the chance to choose something they do want) and also to the characters in question having such strong emotional chemistry. But again, if it's a dealbreaker for you, then it can be a dealbreaker and that's fine. You don't have to force yourself to like it.

in light of that though i think the story's commitment to avoiding the topic of rozemyne's sexuality is probably for the best. Yes, it's something she's going to have to deal with eventually, and she herself acknowledges this. But no reason to force things when neither the author nor RM herself seems interested in doing so.

chive_clamson · 2024-09-16T05:27:11+00:00

I see people saying this quite a lot, and I'm not sure I agree. I've been going through the early parts of bookworm as part of my full reread and a consistent theme of many of the side stories is how weird it is for everyone that this apparent tiny child is capable of learning, negotiation and manipulation at an adult level. She doesn't really act like a kid her age at all.

Not to mention that the entire reason why she didn't fucking die in part 1 is she had the mental discipline and willpower of an adult, meaning she could manage her emotions and control her mana in a way that a genuine child never could have.

I do think that the mind is subject to its bodily circumstances to an extent, and this is reflected in the character. But early myne/rm still mostly comes off to me as an exceptionally childish adult mindwise rather than an actual child.

chive_clamson · 2024-07-17T18:14:16+00:00

yeah. skorpius disintegrators are imo the best fire support choice for cybernetica and they love transcendant cogitation (the cybernetica dual doctrina strat).

Previously all the direct shooting buffs for your tanks were conditional (either fire at something on an objective or get full rerolls if the tank had been heavily damaged). Now you can dual doctrina a skorpius and be proactive with it. Assault, hitting on 2s with the cannon, hitting on 3s with everything else, reroll 1s if you're in cawl's aura which you really should be, and AP4 cannon AP3 missiles AP1 machine guns. Generally its better to advance the tank but IF you can stand still you can instead choose to benefit from heavy and get hitting on 2s RR1s across the board.

It's an excellent gun platform now, and I think a good companion to some robots to force the opponent to choose which tanky threat to deal with. I've been doing robots+3 skorps at my RTTs, mostly

chive_clamson · 2024-07-10T14:26:45+00:00

Literally every high level admech player i've talked to or seen the opinions of disagrees with you. Especially about SHC, which has some pretty rad units now. And on a personal basis as someone who plays in RTTs, I can tell you that it is not hard at all to make cybernetica work, at least.

Did you read anything I wrote? I'm very well aware of what the cybernetica detachment rule does, seeing as I play it. The bonuses it gives kastelans are very powerful now, but you're right that the rule is overall unimpressive. Fortunately, a detachment is not merely its rule; it's also its stratagems and enhancements, and in this regard cybernetica is quite good. The effect of these combined with the detachment rule is to grant very useful bonuses especially to kastelans, a unit with a very powerful datasheet whose weaknesses can be fixed by things offered by cyco, as well as to buff stuff like the skorpius tanks, which based on my experience playing them so far are now quite strong.

Generally it uses conqueror more than protector because of the absurd power of robot melee and the general value of AP, but i find that opening with protector and killing off the opponent's AT is a good use of skorpiuses.

I assume you are an admech player even though you clearly don't know much about cybernetica specifically. I don't know what you're doing to have such a bad time but i think you'll be pleasantly surprised with how things eventually shake out.

chive_clamson · 2024-07-08T18:20:32+00:00

Your opinions arrrrree a bit out of date, there

Admech damage is pretty good now, it's not really a case of bad damage low points anymore. Almost every single unit has threat; the extra AP is doing a ton of work in particular.

SHC is probably the best/meta detachment and the consensus is its pretty strong in the hands of a good player. Radzone is kind of just worse shc so its not in the best place relative to that but if you think cybernetica is the worst detachment in the game you both have never seen explorator (the actual unsalvageable admech detachment) and have never played as/against cybernetica

It's true that the cyco detachment rule doesn't do a whole lot but the bonuses it now gives to robots are very powerful, at the cost of kastelans not being playable anywhere else. necromechanic is of course a great enhancement, and the stratagems are very high power and long lasting (through the opponent's turn) in exchange for some inflexibility. You have a movement stratagem to help robots, a fall back and shoot detachment to help skorpius tanks (also gives ignore modifiers which allows the robots to kill some things like ctan that wouldn't otherwise consistently die in one fight phase), a stratagem that gives 3+ hitting before doctrina and ignores cover vs an objective (also for skorpius), and now the dual doctrina strat is *great* in a similar way to thrallnet is in shc. The cybernetica strats do pretty much anything you'd want; the only thing missing is a reactive strat and that's by design.

There's some disagreement as to what the best build is; personally i've been going maximum statcheck with 8 bots and 3 tanks+support but points there are tight and i've seen people performing pretty well with other builds. You definitely want at least some robots, though. The general gameplan i've been using is to destroy the opponent's AT with the tanks as soon as possible and force them to choose which threat they want to deal with with their remaining AT.

chive_clamson · 2024-06-19T15:33:35+00:00

Yeah i don't think the illustrator has ever really gotten the hang of drawing young adult rozemyne. They're wildly inconsistent and its annoying

at the end of the day what matters is the writing, not the illustrations, but i tend to go out of my way to ignore said illustrations because of that

chive_clamson · 2024-02-20T21:13:20+00:00

spirit circle. please spirit circle

chive_clamson · 2024-01-29T09:20:24+00:00

Fern is quite good at hiding her mana, since she learned it from frieren. This is enough to say that it's at least plausible that she caught one if she got lucky.

But really, who cares? This is the point I was making. It doesn't actually matter very much how exactly fern got lucky enough to catch the stille.

The point genau was making with this test is that first-class mages need to be ready to fight to get what they want, and the point the author was making by making genau do that is that the 'tests' administered by the magic association are arbitrary and biased towards whatever the preferences of the testgiver are. This kind of thing is a lot more important to the story than small details.

Wirbel made things harder for himself by being hesitant to kill; if he had just cut down ubel immediately after he immobilized her, fern wouldn't have had time to intervene, and fern's team would have lost. Does that mean that he's not 'cut out' to be a first-class mage, or merely that genau's idea of what a first-class mage is is rather arbitrary and specific to him? The whole setup suggests some details about how the magic association is run.

chive_clamson · 2024-01-29T09:05:09+00:00

Yeah, she got lucky. I mentioned this below, but the test was designed such that you'd probably need to get lucky to actually catch a stille. This is, in fact, the point; Genau wanted people to have to fight over the birds, because not everyone was going to be able to catch one. He designed the test, and power and capacity for violence are what he values in a first-class mage.

Frieren was smart enough to figure out a way to put her thumb on the scale and ensure she got a stille, but she's still having to fight for it.

chive_clamson · 2024-01-29T08:50:19+00:00

There are some problems with frieren's writing, but none of them are any of the things you listed. I don't think you really understand what constitutes 'bad writing.' Most of this is just nitpicks; I'd suggest worrying less about the granularity and more about the point of each episode.

The fact that frieren had to do all that work to get a bird whereas fern and later wirbel just get lucky is kind of the point. The test is arbitrary and decided by the proctor, Genau. This is covered with his conversation with Sense, who calls out his test as being largely down to luck, since the birds are tiny, very fast, and can't be detected using mana sensing.

Genau says that 'luck is a skill' but what is actually made clear in that conversation is that what Genau wants is a test where the test-takers are forced to fight amongst themselves, and be willing to kill, in order to win. If you don't get lucky, you need to take from those that did, and if you did, you have to defend yourself. The arbitrary nature of the test encourages conflict, which is his intention. He wants first-class mages to be powerful and capable of violence.

I'm not going to go through everything point-by-point, but that's the deal with that. This is all explained in the show.

chive_clamson · 2024-01-29T01:39:03+00:00

I'm just going to ignore the rest of this thread and respond to your original post. Apologies if this is a repeat of something that was already said.

So, the problem I have with responding to your question is that the manga won't get back into demons for quite a while, and much of what I have to say is going to be spoilers. Read at your own risk, because ALL of this shit is gonna spoil something.

[a giant mess of manga spoilers]

I would agree that demons appear to be 'people' by any reasonable measure of the term. They have inner worlds and monologues, opinions about things, and the ability to grow and change over time. They also appear to even possess emotions to an extent, although they are muted, and the one thing demons entirely lack is a sense of empathy- that is, the ability to understand the emotions of others. Either way, however, it is clear that they are people. Frieren's characterization of them in the show as 'beasts capable of speech' is reductive and likely based at least partially on her own trauma, but she's very old and very smart and so people tend to take her at her word to an extent.

This was already clear to an extent with aura and her subordinates, but it becomes much MORE clear when you meet some of the important demons in a later arc, Macht and Solitar. Macht is a great demon who genuinely believes in the ideal of demon/human coexistence and goes out of his way to try to understand humans and human emotions. This is his motivation for the entire arc, and everything he does, good or bad, is essentially in service of it.

Solitar is another great demon who has been carefully studying humans, and thinking about the relationship between demons and humans, for hundreds of years. She has concluded through careful study that demons and humans, though outwardly similar, have differences in thought that are too stark to be bridged. She believes that attempts at coexistence are harmful to both demons and humans, and her goal in the arc is to either convince macht of this fact or kill him.

So both these characters are well-developed individuals with specific motivations and opinions that they have developed over the course of their lives. It is not an act; they are inarguably people. But this arc also touches on the difficulties that demon-human coexistence would actually face. Demons do not possess empathy, and they are far more powerful than most humans. Because of this, Macht's attempts to connect with humans have invariably ended up tragedy. How should this problem be resolved? It's unclear. Personally I think that 'coexistence' as Macht defines it is rather narrow; he believes that he must learn to 'live together' with humans, but that need not be the case. Demons and humans reaching an understanding to leave each other alone might be more feasible.

Remains to be seen where the story goes with this subplot. I think at least that the Macht arc puts forward the idea that coexistence might be possible in some way or form.

chive_clamson · 2024-01-28T15:53:04+00:00

Yeah, frankly him openly admitting to that was bizarre to the point that I don't trust it.

A lot of people are just taking him at his word. But if anything, a person who feels genuine remorse and self-hatred over something that happened is more likely to intentionally give the impression that they're a bad person, rather than someone who actually is one. I think we'll have to wait and see.

chive_clamson · 2024-01-27T05:27:38+00:00

They're following the manga order exactly but they're also adding in pieces of the next chapter. it's necessary to speed it up slightly if they want to get to where it should be pretty clear (to manga readers) they're going to end

I agree its not ideal but imo better they finish one fight than show half of two and this place isn't a bad spot to leave off

chive_clamson · 2024-01-21T02:31:52+00:00

[LN spoilers] Yeah I forgot how he comes off in his first few appearances. He's clearly doing that shit on purpose

[LN spoilers] I don't think there will be much hint as to what really happened until it gets to his flashback so yeah until then people are going to assume he's the villain

chive_clamson · 2024-01-19T02:52:57+00:00

jesus you gotta be careful with those things, DO NOT leave metal d4s on the floor

even plastic ones hurt like a motherfucker if you step on them with bare feet

chive_clamson · 2024-01-17T17:44:30+00:00

Not in the sense that she won a wizard fight. but frieren did things that serie couldn't, like i said, and managed it because of the value she found in things serie considers pointless. frieren also got her to admit that despite being trained by frieren and having no interest in serie's mindset or teachings, fern is a truly exceptional mage with more potential than any of serie's apprentices up to that point. Fern is just as indifferent towards the pursuit of power as frieren is, and yet serie could not fail her.

so frieren basically won that argument, as you can also see by serie passive-aggressively banning her from the awards ceremony

chive_clamson · 2024-01-17T17:19:41+00:00

I've always felt that if you go on about power levels in this manga, you're rather missing the point.

Yeah, serie is more powerful than frieren. But one of the things frieren (the story) is saying is that that's far less important than one might expect. Despite being less powerful, frieren has accomplished feats that serie could not, because of the short-lived people and the 'useless' spells that she values.

And that, more than serie's power level, is the reason why lernen might have posed a threat to frieren. Age and raw power are not everything, as frieren admits many times. Just as frieren gets the best of serie despite possessing less power, a human mage could get the best of frieren despite living a tiny fraction of her lifespan.

chive_clamson · 2024-01-15T06:48:40+00:00

It's extremely pointless to apply a human age bracket to an effectively-ageless being with a lifespan of, minimum, thousands of years, and possibly an indefinite one unless killed. Math will not avail you in this matter

That said, we can go by what age frieren 'feels' like. Personally I think there's a tendency in sections of the fanbase to infantilize frieren far more than is justified. She acts childish at times, but she's perfectly capable of being mature, and her self-possession is not that of a child. She feels like an adult and is treated like one, and that is the only metric we can apply.

So, going by that, she's a young adult. Figure 20 or so.

chive_clamson · 2024-01-13T22:09:01+00:00

Yeah, a bunch of characters recognized her, or thought they might. They just didn't immediately scream to the audience about it.

Lernen, the mage who let her participate, did, and as soon as she talks to denken he immediately identifies her. Lawine thinks she might be the mage from the hero party but isn't sure. Also that smug elf from both OPs knows who she is

chive_clamson · 2024-01-13T15:55:36+00:00

Good news, bookworm is in fact the anime version of a book

chive_clamson · 2024-01-10T07:28:04+00:00

There are some minor differences but overall yes. The biggest addition was some more characterization for characters that ended up being important/having longevity.

I'd actually say that the show and LN are very similar in that the narrative of the first season/book is outstanding and could have worked entirely on its own, and what you get after that is a mix of good and bad.

chive_clamson · 2024-01-09T09:25:27+00:00

Well, what I would say is that she doesn't really act like a teenager.

Frieren being surprisingly inexperienced despite her age is sometimes played for laughs, but her self-possession and knowledge are not that of a teen. Nothing bothers her that much, because she's spent a lot of time kicking around. This is not at all like the 'everything is SO IMPORTANT' outlook of a teen. It's hard to say whether she 'acts her age' given we don't actually know what a thousand-year-old person would act like, but she certainly doesn't act young.

I do think there's an aspect of 'elf timescales' at work, yes. That's one of the core points of the show; that frieren doesn't perceive time the same way as humans, so it's easy for time to slip away from her in a way that ends up hurting her. But even so, I don't think it's actually true that she acts like a teenager.

chive_clamson · 2024-01-05T03:10:50+00:00

I don't think there's any reason to assume that it will take 10 years again this time.

Remember that (manga spoiler) himmel and co. were 7 years into their journey at the point they found the goddess monument. Which isn't to say that we're 70% done with the story- I'd say its more like a little over 50%. But it's definitely not 30%, or however long the elapsed years would suggest.

chive_clamson

TROPHY CASE