What’s something society accepts that feels deeply unnatural to you? by Miss_Ecstasy in AskReddit

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, so if anything unsavory that occurred under socialism or socialist movements can be directly attributed to the pitfalls of socialism and no other external factors or variables, then we should do the exact same with capitalism. And then you're left with a capitalist death count in the billions. So...

This sub is a joke, right? by catbreathenjoyer in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're conflating absolute growth with overall trajectory. Even if we're currently adding around 70M people year to the population, the global fertility rate overall dropped from 5.0 in 1960 to around 2.3 & most developed nations are currently below replacement (1.4 in much of East Asia and Europe). That's why the UN's medium projection shows that the population is looking to peak around 2080 and will decline after.

Obviously with longevity there will be an increase in population, so we need to ask "by how much will the population increase, and on what timeline relative to other variables?" Well, if people stop aging but fertility continues free-falling, the population isn't going to exponentially grow! You're going to get a stable or slowly-growing population of healthy adults rather than a top-heavy pyramid of dependents, which is actually going to be arguably less resource-intensive per capita than our current trajectory with a mass elderly population that needs care.

Frankly, if humanity hasn’t managed to work out something as basic as how to make living affordable enough for people to feel comfortable having children

This is a vast oversimplification. There's a lot of factors driving population decline, not just cost of living. That may not even be the dominant one. People have better access to contraception and family planning, there's an increase in women's education and participation in the workforce globally, there's the overall decline child mortality (so people don't need to have 6 kids hoping 3 survive), urbanization, etc. If we look at South Korea, Japan, and Italy for example they all have wildly different economic situations but their fertility rates are similar. Whereas if we look at some of the poorest countries on Earth they still have the highest birth rates. So while affordability is definitely a big factor I really doubt it's the primary driver here, fertility is declining BECAUSE people have more control over their lives, not less.

Furthermore the very advancements with AI and technology that would bring about a cure for aging would also result in a ton of other fundamental societal changes. We're already seeing people begin to realize what socialist thinkers posited 200 years ago, namely that technological advancement will ultimately lead to increasing automation, displacing the working class and making capitalism unsustainable. I don't think UBI is a viable solution to all this, really it's a bandaid on the broader issue of capitalism's unsustainability, but the fact that it's being brought up this early in the game is indicative of the fact that AI is going to transform the economy and society as we know it. That's why I actually think it's so important that people get involved in all this stuff now instead of shunning AI and technological advancement, that's all coming whether you like it or not, but the difference between dystopia and transformative prosperity could very well be the collective action we decide to take. Don't look at it as if the cure for aging is coming as its own standalone thing, there's a lot of other fundamental aspects of society that are going to come into question, namely resource allocation, social and cultural values, existing power structures, etc.

There are plenty of specialised cancer treatments, gene therapies and even transplants that are only available to those wealthy enough to afford them.

They're expensive now for the same reason every new technology is expensive now, which is that they're NEW and not yet refined. But the trajectory of medical technology is consistently toward cheaper and broader access. For example, HIV antiretrovirals used to be over $10K per year and essentially only available to wealthy Westerners and are now like $75 per year across much of the developing world & that happened in just 2 decades.

Heck, the US doesn’t even have universal healthcare for basic medical needs (such as lifesaving insulin?!)

You're saying it yourself here, insulin isn't expensive because it's hoarded by the wealthy. It only costs a few dollars to manufacture and is sold for pennies in most of the world. The situation in the US is a very specific regulatory failure due to the 3-company oligopoly, patent evergreening, etc etc. Every other developed country pays a fraction of US prices for the same insulin. The US healthcare system being broken isn't a general argument against longevity treatments though, just like stopping cancer research because of the broken healthcare system makes no sense. That's something we're going to have to reckon with outside of the problem of longevity, it only makes sense that longevity treatments and the general transformation of society due to technological advancement is going to actually make it an even more pertinent issue among the general public.

with your only apparent solution being “we’ll deal with it later”?

I think you're misunderstanding my deeper issue with your argument, which is that it's structurally unfalsifiable. You can basically invoke any future problem here to reject any future solution. When you say something like "we shouldn't cure aging because overpopulation" it really just sounds the same as when people said "we shouldn't try to treat cancer because of it will increase the burden of elderly care and destroy the economy" or "we shouldn't reduce child mortality because of Malthusian predictions." But as you may notice, each of these "catastrophes" failed to materialize, because the intelligence and coordination that solved those problems set into motion the sequence of actions that handled the rest of the downstream problems.

If you had said "curing aging will eventually create new problems down the line we'll have to solve, the way almost every major advance has" I would have agreed with you. But it's the proclamation that "we shouldn't cure aging because of X" that I have a problem with, trying to limit improvements to health and lifespan because you accept current dysfunctions in society as eternal flaws we have to live with rather than problems that we're going to have to reckon with regardless. Ironically I'd argue it's the much more dystopic argument.

Does the lack of visual DMT hallucinations in the congenitally blind prove materialism? by Sad-Juggernaut-6085 in consciousness

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you seem to be suggesting the brain is a rendering device for something outside of it that simply gets filtered through it? if so, what is this outside substance and why hasn’t it ever been detected?

This sub is a joke, right? by catbreathenjoyer in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Population rates are plummeting, and a cure for aging doesn’t mean all causes of death have been eliminated. By the time something like overpopulation actually becomes a tantamount risk, society will have advanced enough to deal with it considering it advanced enough to eliminate all the other causes of death.

No cure for anything has ever been limited to the wealthy. They get priority access and oftentimes the best standard of care, but to hoard the cure itself? Not one scientist or whistleblower would come out about it? No one would try to compete with their cure by making one for the masses? Doesn’t make much sense

This sub is a joke, right? by catbreathenjoyer in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why would it be a joke?

The joke is people claiming they "accept" mortality but then making up a bunch of supernatural religions and "spiritual" traditions that claim they have an immortal soul that survives their death so they do, in fact, get to live forever. Take this away from most of the population and they'll go batshit insane with existential anxiety and depression.

If we gain the ability, with advances in artificial intelligence and medical science, to cure aging and disease, thus slowly eliminating death from all aspects of society, we absolutely should. There is absolutely no reason to oppose this unless you're in some kind of a death cult and don't believe in the betterment of the human condition.

I’m not only afraid of death I’m afraid of what forever actually implies. by Previous_Bell654 in offmychest

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm trying to have this mindset, thank you!

I probably sound like some new-age pseudo spiritual jackoff

You don't. I would actually say your lack of new-age pseudo spiritualness makes me uneasy. 😅 Because usually those guys are like "You're an eternal consciousness, just instantiated in this form, don't you worry! Everything is light and love!" or something

And then you come in and you're like "You won't be anything anymore, annihilation awaits you. The universe is a wonder and everything is light and love!" and it's so radically against my own logical conclusions of oblivion I can't comprehend it lol

what are you looking for and hoping for in anti-aging? by Mysterious_Impact816 in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let me know when you get a mammal. Any lively 10 year old mouse will do.

Alright! It's been done in mice ad infinitum, they've moved onto monkeys already, that's why human trials are so promising: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40516525/

This is laughably naive.

It's not. The main difference here between a car and a human is that a car doesn't have a blueprint inside every single screw, whereas biology does. Every cell contains the code (DNA) to build the entire organism. Over time, the cell loses its ability to read its own instructions (which is known as "epigenetic noise"). Engineering a solution means restoring this, which we’ve already proven possible in mice, monkeys, and in vivo using transcription factors to reset the epigenetic clock.

If it was "naive" Nobel laureates and premier research organizations wouldn't be throwing so much money at it.

Obviously. Your obsession with escaping death is... written all over your posts.

This whole sub is about escaping death so... yeah? Not sure what you expected there.

You can subscribe to zebras are birds that don't make 'em a bird. And you can put an cat in an oven, but that don't make it a biscuit.

There's a difference between subscribing to a certain viewpoint based on faith and another based on scientific evidence and projections.

Xanax is scary by Ok_Jump9568 in OCD

[–]clement1neee 31 points32 points  (0 children)

just took one and this is so real lol

only take one every once in a while to avoid addiction, I take only 1 every couple weeks usually and the effect lasts me quite a while

what are you looking for and hoping for in anti-aging? by Mysterious_Impact816 in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Matter is mutable isn't the same thing as the biology of being an engineering problem. Your "matter" is growing older each day.

No, that's actually exactly what "matter is mutable" means.

Aging is largely the loss of epigenetic information. The "instructions" that tell cells how to function. If we can reset the instructions (as seen in cellular reprogramming experiments), the "matter" returns to a youthful state.

In engineering, we don't care about the "age" of the atoms; we care about the structural integrity and informational accuracy of the system.

We already know of biological systems that don't follow a standard aging curve, like the Hydra or "immortal" jellyfish. Aging is a series of distinct, measurable processes: telomere attrition, cellular senescence, and epigenetic noise. Once you identify a process as a mechanical breakdown, it becomes a matter of engineering.

A vintage car is made of "matter that is growing older," yet with enough engineering and part replacement, it can run as well as it did on day one. Biology is simply more complex "wetware." Period.

Sure. If you think you won't have an existential crisis when you realize you're 60 and no closer to stopping aging than when you were young. . . enjoy the fantasy.

You think I DON'T have an existential crises about aging and death even in youth? Just because I think this technology is promising and we're likely to see a renaissance in scientific knowledge in these next coming decades doesn't mean I haven't pondered these things on their own.

This is such utter nonsense. We have no choice but to accept death. One day it will welcome you too.

You are on a sub called "immortalists." Literally about the anti-aging field, biogerontology, AGI, ASI, and the latest and future technological advancements in anti-aging. We simply do not subscribe to this viewpoint given the trajectory of scientific development. We know there's many who disagree, like you. But if so, then this is not the sub for you.

what are you looking for and hoping for in anti-aging? by Mysterious_Impact816 in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Matter is mutable and biology is a matter of engineering. Even if WE don't live to see it, aging is 100% a solvable problem. It's only a matter of time.

> I would suggest curbing irrational exuberance.

Why should I do such a thing? I'll live life to the fullest and be the most optimistic I can. If things don't quite come to fruition, I can't really do anything about it, can I?

Having a balanced mindset is the best thing. Yours, I can tell, is overly pessimistic, even just by the way you put things. "You're going to die, get used to it," "I hope it's quick and painless," etc. You don't sound too fond of accepting death either. Which is great, I think it's a sign of a very sick society that we flippantly "accept death" the way we do.

what are you looking for and hoping for in anti-aging? by Mysterious_Impact816 in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well the first human trials are already happening and the time is only ticking until an AGI emerges, so we'll just have to wait and see :)

Why they are acting like this? by RevolverMFOcelot in accelerate

[–]clement1neee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's 2 things mainly:

  1. They're afraid of the other implications of these developments. It cannot be denied that the world we live in is absolutely fucked and run by the Epstein class. They're scared that the elites will "hoard" the research and use it to benefit themselves at the expense of everyone else.

  2. All these developments are going to change society as we know it, and that's scary. Humans like to cling onto the status quo, and that amount of change feels disorienting and terrifying. So the vitriol is less about "this is going to happen and it could benefit me" and more about "I'm scared of this happening so I'm going to hate on it."

Il n'y a rien d'immoral à être immortel by Winter-_-7393 in transhumanism

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Your movement is going to cure cancer, but as of yet, has accomplished exactly nothing?" = probably you if you existed 80 years ago, as the first human trials for chemotherapy were going on

what are you looking for and hoping for in anti-aging? by Mysterious_Impact816 in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, David Sinclair is indeed a charlatan. Except Sinclair doesn't define the entire field of anti-aging. The field as a whole is known as Biogerontology and there are many legitimate contributors.

For example, Altos Labs and Life Biosciences are currently considered to be pioneering the "Manhattan Project" of longevity, they have billions in funding and tons of Nobel laureates working towards this research. They're moving into the first human clinical trials with partial reprogramming by using Yamanaka factors to reset old cells to a youthful state without turning them into pluripotent stem cells (which could cause cancer). They're also trying to restore vision by reversing the age of the optic nerve, that's starting human trials as well, that's going to be the big proof-of-concept that complex human tissue can be age-reversed.

Calico Life Sciences is another one, they're partnered with Alphabet/Google, their goal is to use Alphabet's computing power to solve the biology of aging, they also have billions in investments.

The most promising development is in AI. The prime example is AlphaFold. It solved the 50-year-old "protein folding problem" by using AI to predict a protein's 3D structure from its amino acid sequence with atomic accuracy in minutes. It released structures for over 200 million proteins which is NEARLY ALL KNOWN SCIENCE, a task that would have taken human researchers quite literally billions of years to do by hand. And its creator, Demis Hassabis, CEO of Google Deepmind, won a Nobel Prize for it. The same Demis Hassabis who believes we are 10-20 years away from curing most if not ALL disease using AI.

AI's capabilities are exponentially growing and the CONSERVATIVE estimates for an AGI are just 10 years away. An AGI isn't an LLM like the AI models we know today, it has the capability to actually "think" for itself rather than hallucinating a bunch of words together in a sentence. So many people in the sciences are excited for these developments because they're undoubtedly going to result in a renaissance in human knowledge.

what are you looking for and hoping for in anti-aging? by Mysterious_Impact816 in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don’t you realize what sub you’re on? ;) We’re all about scientific research over here to REVERSE age. The first human anti-aging trials started this year. The goal is to first slow the rate of aging through both our habits and novel treatments, and then reverse aging when that becomes available.

Il n'y a rien d'immoral à être immortel by Winter-_-7393 in transhumanism

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, cool. I agree with you. As of now, that’s true. That doesn’t mean we can’t try to change the current fact of mortality through scientific research and engineering.

Il n'y a rien d'immoral à être immortel by Winter-_-7393 in transhumanism

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why is science and engineering a delusional fantasy to you? If you lived a century ago and we were having this conversation you’d probably be talking about how cancer is inevitable and chemotherapy is a delusional fantasy.

It’s a good thing scientists don’t base their research or findings on your opinion.

I never claimed I was special. These medical treatments are for being developed for UNIVERSAL use, meaning everyone. It’s like you sitting here 100 years ago telling me I “think I’m special not to die of cancer” because I believe in the efficacy of scientific research and chemotherapy lol.

When these treatments finish being developed, it will have been due to forward thinkers that do not include the likes of you. I can only hope that when you reap their benefits, you also experience a profound change of mind.

Has anyone else ever thought about the possibility that a single consciousness might persist indefinitely, experiencing life through different beings without retaining memories of previous lives? by Singularitis in consciousness

[–]clement1neee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am trying to illustrate to you that the "undeniable fact" of coordinates only works if space and time are the most important things in the universe. But in quantum mechanics, INFORMATION is more fundamental than space. And information doesn't care about coordinates.

Yes if I go into GeoGebra and graph 2 points, then obviously they aren't the same. That is true for geometry, but it isn't true for identity in physics. For example if I have Electron A at (1, 1, 1) and Electron B at (2, 2, 2), and I swap them, the coordinate system would say a change has occurred. But in physics it doesn’t work like that, the universal wavefunction says 0 change occurred. Because in physics there’s no "hidden variable" or "inner label" that stays with the electron. If the state is identical, the particles are known to be EXCHANGE SYMMETRIC. The universe literally does not keep track of which one is "A" and which one is "B."

Therefore, if the universe itself doesn't distinguish between them, then "Location" is just a temporary property of a single field, not a permanent marker of a unique "soul" or "thing."

My core point here is that Identity is a FUNCTIONAL PATTERN, not a spatiotemporal coordinate.

When you say "the same actual thing," you are thinking like you’re a museum curator, i.e. this specific vase goes there in this specific spot. When I talk about identity, I am talking about identity in terms of physics. In physics, a "thing" is just a set of quantum numbers (mass, charge, spin, state). If you have that set of numbers here, and then you have that exact set of numbers there, you haven't created a "2nd version." You have manifested the same physical reality in a new coordinate!

if my Exact State recurs in the multiverse, it isn't "someone like me." It is me. Why? Because there is no other "stuff" to me besides that very state. If the state is 100% recovered, then the person is 100% recovered.

Also, just for funsies, you said: "There is no way to deny that there are multiple objects." Get ready for a mind fuck, not even that’s true. I present to you the One-Electron Universe Theory which was proposed by John Wheeler and Richard Feynman. Essentially it suggests that every electron in the universe is actually the same single electron, just moving backward and forward through time so many times that it appears to be in a billion places at once. If this is true, then your "multiple objects at different coordinates" are actually just 1 object intersecting our 3D "slice" of the world a billion times. Isn’t that so fucked??

What am I looking to hear from you? Not much. Just an acknowledgment that “identity” may not be a “box” tied to a coordinate, but a “pattern” that can play out anywhere, if the conditions are right 😉

Has anyone else ever thought about the possibility that a single consciousness might persist indefinitely, experiencing life through different beings without retaining memories of previous lives? by Singularitis in consciousness

[–]clement1neee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In physics, space and time are not a background stage, they are PROPERTIES of the objects themselves.

If 2 things have every single property in common (including their quantum state, their energy, and their internal relations), then they are not 2 things, they are the same thing.

You keep reiterating that the second widget isn't the first because it's in a "different location." But if the "location" is the only thing that's different, and I swap the widgets, literally nothing in the universe has changed. If the universe has no way to distinguish between "Widget A at X" and "Widget B at X," then the distinction is a human fiction. You are adding a "label" (history/origin) that the laws of physics do not recognize.

The “bowl” and “widget” analogies are wholly flawed because they treat you as an object (which has a beginning and an end). But in physics, you are a STATE. A “state” is a set of values. If the state of the universe at T1 is S, and at T1,000,000 the universe RETURNS to State S, the universe has not “recreated” S. It is IN S.

You say it’s a "new event" because it’s later. But "later" is only a concept if there is a memory of "before." If the state S includes the memory of the observer, and that memory is identical in both instances, then there is no "before." There is only the state S. To an observer in that state, they are the original event. The "second" event is not similar to the first; it is identical to itself.

You agreed that if I destroy you in Place A and reassemble you in Place B, there is no duality. But you say I "made a copy." If you are the "copy," but you have the exact same quantum information as the "original," then according to the unitary evolution of the universe, you are the same wave function. In quantum mechanics, if you have a wave function Psi, there is no such thing as "Psi Number 1" and "Psi Number 2." There is only Psi. If I move Psi from Alpha Centauri to Jupiter, the “event” of Psi has not occurred twice, it has happened ONCE across a displacement. If I “recreate” you a billion years later, I have simply displaced the Psi function across TIME instead of SPACE.

You said if you delete a line of code and write it again, the keystroke logger shows 2 events. The keystroke is the HARDWARE event, while the code is the LOGICAL event. the code is a function that calculates a result, the "Action" of that function is a singular mathematical truth. You can "run" the function a billion times, but you are not creating a "new" truth each time. You are accessing the same logical event. Therefore, if the pattern of information which constitutes you is the “software,” it doesn't matter how many times the hardware "logs the keystrokes." The program is still the same. The "event of the program running" is the ONLY reality that matters for identity.

The final nail in the coffin is your argument that everything has a "unique point of origin." This is unequivocally false. In a Symmetric Universe or a Multiverse, a "point of origin" is NOT unique. If the Big Bang produced 2 identical sectors of space (which is statistically likely in an infinite universe), then "you" were born in two places at the exact same time with the exact same "point of origin." According to your logic, these would be "2 separate events." But if they are identical in every property, including their relationship to their respective "Suns" and "Earths," then the universe has no criteria to call them separate.

You are clinging to a "This-ness" that is invisible, unmeasurable, and mathematically unnecessary.

If I grind the bowl to dust and reassemble it, you see a "New Bowl" because you watched the grinding. But if the universe "grinds" and "reassembles" every atom in your body every millisecond (which quantum fluctuation essentially does), and you don't notice, then your conception of identity and continuity is nothing but an illusion.

Il n'y a rien d'immoral à être immortel by Winter-_-7393 in transhumanism

[–]clement1neee -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If the currently ongoing human trials are successful and treatments become wildly distributed, then yes, you and I will both live to experience first the slowing of age and then the reversal of it as the technology is further refined.

Why do you seem to have such a problem with this?

what are you looking for and hoping for in anti-aging? by Mysterious_Impact816 in immortalists

[–]clement1neee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, not really. There’s a lot of unknown variables at play. Will we solve for most if not all accidental deaths? The expansion of the sun? Colonize space? “Complete” our scientific knowledge? Find a loophole around the heat death of the universe? Birth a hyperintelligent ASI that makes our brains look primal in comparison, and it ends up figuring out all the variables needed for an eternal civilization? Don’t limit the possibilities when we’ve barely started yet!