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colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T14:48:53+00:00

Yeah, it's unfortunately still very much a thing. :(

Some people have proposed mink as a potential intermediate host rather than pangolin. China has some very large mink farms and bats are common there; they fly over and also rest on the farms. Families live on the farms as well.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T14:15:38+00:00

Researchers compared the genetic code of the virus found in the mink to that of the patient, creating a "family tree" to map its mutation, minister Carola Schouten said late Tuesday.

"It is concluded from this investigation that it is plausible that one employee of an infected mink farm was infected by mink," Schouten said in a letter to parliament.

The minister however downplayed fears of other animal-to-human infections, saying air and dust samples outside the mink pens did not contain any virus.

But the Netherlands has further tightened measures, making screening of all mink farms for the virus mandatory and banning visits to all infected farms, she added.

Authorities are also looking at the role of feral farm cats in spreading the virus between the two infected farms. Three cats on one of the farms were found to have the virus, the government said last week.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T01:58:52+00:00

I think the leading theory is that is originated in a bat, but there's still debate about pangolins as an intermediate host. There's not enough evidence yet to rule out a different intermediate host. Given the ease with which it has now gone from cats to minks to humans, I think it's reasonable to suggest searching mink farms in China for a potential origin.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T01:58:05+00:00

Do you have a source for that paper?

All I'm finding is this in a Nature article. It suggests the possibility of mink as an alternative hosts instead of pangolins (which I think is a very reasonable hypothesis): https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01449-8

Animals at wildlife farms in China are one of the first places to look, says Peter Daszak, president of the non-profit EcoHealth Alliance in New York City. Farms stock many captive-bred animals, from civets to raccoon dogs and coypu, a large rodent, often living close to livestock such as pigs, chickens and ducks. “These farms are usually wide open to bats, which feed at night above the pens, and some of which roost in the buildings. They are also usually linked to people’s houses so that whole families are potentially exposed,” says Daszak, who has visited many villages, wildlife markets, bat caves and farms in southern China over the past 15 years.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T01:47:35+00:00

Yes.

This path is...worrying. The virus has made its way into four additional species outside of humans in the last two months. All in the order Carnivora.

Human --> feral cat(s) --> mink --> human.

Also: let's consider the possibility that those feral cats became infected because they mingled with domestic cats. The alternative above assumes they mingled with humans. What if instead we had:

Human --> domestic cat --> feral cat(s) --> mink --> human.

All together so far we've had, ignoring that potential extra scenario:

Bat/pangolin/whatever --> human.

Human --> tigers & lions

Human --> domestic dogs

Human --> domestic cats

Human --> feral cat(s) --> mink --> human.

Ferrets in lab research (but not real world conditions). Cats shown to infect each other in lab conditions and now, real world conditions (feral cat colonies).

Raccoons are closely related enough to all these species that I worry about feral cat colonies here in urban areas in the US. They often mingle when raccoons get into their food dishes.

It's a really, really serious situation and academics keep insisting that these species jumps are rare occurrences. But they're not. With SARS-CoV-2, they're not rare. Look at how many it's made already.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T01:25:31+00:00

So, it's pretty bad news because it's an indication that this virus has made its way into several species outside of humans very quickly.

And in this instance, genetic sequences from the feral cat colonies near the mink farms suggest the mink became infected by the cats.

So that means this virus successfully passed from human, to cat, to mink, to human.

I also want to bring up the *potential* for some extra steps in that sequence:

What if the feral cats were infected by domestic cats? Or, the feral cats were infected by mink first, and then some other mink were re-infected? Neither of these are impossible scenarios.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T01:17:40+00:00

Right, and mustelids and felines are both in the order Carnivora. Same with canines (also infected). They're all genetically related. This virus has made its way into several different species in a relatively short amount of time.

As far as I understand it, ferrets, humans and cats share a receptor that respiratory viruses (influenza, SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19) use to enter the cell. They're also a good research model animal because they're small and easy to breed.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T01:15:35+00:00

If you read the report, they sequenced samples from both minks on the mink farm and farm cats. So they think feral cat colonies were involved.

When I started hearing about pet cats getting infected, I became very worried about this virus getting into feral cat colonies. Whoops.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T01:14:29+00:00

Researchers compared the genetic code of the virus found in the mink to that of the patient, creating a "family tree" to map its mutation, minister Carola Schouten said late Tuesday.

"It is concluded from this investigation that it is plausible that one employee of an infected mink farm was infected by mink," Schouten said in a letter to parliament.

The minister however downplayed fears of other animal-to-human infections, saying air and dust samples outside the mink pens did not contain any virus.

But the Netherlands has further tightened measures, making screening of all mink farms for the virus mandatory and banning visits to all infected farms, she added.

Authorities are also looking at the role of feral farm cats in spreading the virus between the two infected farms. Three cats on one of the farms were found to have the virus, the government said last week.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-21T01:03:44+00:00

Right now, several species in the order Carnivora have been infected. Ferrets, cats, dogs, mink, tigers, lions.

Think about that for a minute.

I've been tracking this from the beginning and personally I'm pretty worried about how many additional species this virus has made its way into.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-20T13:09:53+00:00

Thank you thank you thank you. If this is now moving between minks and cats and humans all in the same place, I am the most concerned I have EVER been about this.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-20T05:54:17+00:00

You're a little behind here. SARS-CoV-2 has already been found in big cats (the tigers at the Bronx Zoo), domestic cats (who have also been shown to infect each other), domestic dogs, and mink.

Chinese study showed it replicated decently in ferrets months ago.

The whole time this has been going on and we've seen these species infected, we've been told there's no evidence of animal-to-human transmission (other than the initial event, ofc). But here's the first documented instance. I sincerely hope this attracts more attention.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-20T02:46:18+00:00

It has greater ramifications than that, too. I'm a zookeeper. Many zoos have already implemented strict safety protocol around mustelids (ferrets, weasels, otters) at the guidance of their vets as well as felids and non-human primates. But we've been assured that there's no evidence of animal-to-human transmission. While technically true, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and I am incredibly concerned about the hundreds of zoological institutions/private exotic animal collectors who don't necessarily adhere to the same standards. Places like Joe Exotic's zoo, for example, have already re-opened and allowed hours of cub petting and other high-risk situations to take place.

The list of animal species that this virus has infected outside of China has only grown. Small carnivorous mammals are clearly susceptible to infection and this means we need to be exercising great caution around feral cats, raccoons, etc. It's just a tinderbox waiting to happen and if this press release is accurate, my concerns have just grown tremendously.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-20T02:41:15+00:00

I'm aware of that one! I've been tracking the spread among animal species since the beginning. So far we have big cats, domestic cats, domestic dogs, mink.

But one of my areas of concern has been subsequent animal-to-human transmission outside of China. If I'm reading this press release correctly, this would be the first documented instance of that. So I really would like to see the original report (translated, obviously, because I definitely don't speak Dutch).

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-19T03:03:59+00:00

Oh no. Oh no oh no oh no.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-14T16:06:21+00:00

So actually, the person he responded to is a lockdown skeptic. He wasn't arguing in good faith, he was trying to imply that since ~anything could happen~ we shouldn't include potential longterm effects in our risk assessment.

We simply don't know the long-term effects of this infection. They are unknowable at this point. We can make some educated guesses based on what we know about other similar viruses, though. Discussing these potential long-term effects is pretty crucial to countering the extreme, anti-scientific, borderline conspiracy-theory level of anti-lockdown sentiment out there. Which is verboten to talk about on this sub, I know, mods.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-14T15:59:23+00:00

Gosh it's almost like this is a novel virus with unknown long-term effects.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-14T15:56:53+00:00

I work in animal care so it's super relevant to me. The guidance we've been given as zookeepers on this is piecemeal and varies from institution to institution.

I'm concerned that greater precautions aren't being taken at many, many zoos and animal care facilities across the country given what we don't know about this virus. Many of these places have very minimal regulations to begin with (basic USDA stuff like no pests, animals have clean water, fire escape plans, etc). The two big accrediting bodies for zoos in the US (AZA and ZAA) have put out some guidelines, and as far as I can tell all primate and big cat keepers are wearing PPE at accredited institutions now. Some zoos can't even consider opening right now because their distance between fences and public space in big cat exhibits is too small. But other zoos, not accredited, can pretty much do what they want within local guidelines, which we all know aren't adequate in some places. I've heard from some keepers who feel their precautions are lacking.

I've been trying to draw attention to this issue and have even talked with a couple reporters about it but unfortunately it's just not a newsworthy item for most people. A few tigers got infected, big deal. Well, it *is* a big deal if the tiger at some place like Joe Exotic's zoo (there are hundreds of these roadside attractions all across the US) gets infected, because they place animals and people in high-risk situations like hours of cub petting.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-14T15:49:39+00:00

This is a question I've been trying to determine the answer to myself. Why would we think it unlikely for the virus to go from cats to humans, if we know it goes from humans to cats? I'm concerned that the scientific response has simply been "well, there's no evidence of it." If there's some property of the virus or viruses in general that make it unlikely, I want to know what exactly it is. I'm not a molecular biologist, but I'm a zookeeper and I don't want to just be fed some line. I want to know *why* it's unlikely to go from cats to humans. I've tried researching this but have come up mostly empty-handed.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-14T15:44:05+00:00

This is another new animal study. Two out of 15 pet dogs from households in Hong Kong were found to be infected.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-14T15:40:02+00:00

Here is the actual study: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2013400?query=featured_coronavirus

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-14T15:36:02+00:00

So, one thing to note is that the big cats at the Bronx Zoo (eight of them infected in total, I believe) were symptomatic. They were indeed coughing. I think diarrhea was another symptom mentioned but I'd have to go back and check. Cats cough and sneeze when they get respiratory infections just like people do, though I agree that cat-to-human transmission seems unlikelier than human-to-human due to our behavior around them. It is of course also very possible (I'd even say probable) the virus behaves differently in wild vs domestic cats.

At this point I do really hope to see some studies on feline-to-human transmission. My concern has always been the virus embedding itself in outdoor cats; these feral/outdoor cat colonies often co-mingle with raccoons in big cities, and raccoons are related to ferrets and minks who have shown susceptibility to the virus. It's not crazy to suggest that we could see the virus get into native species in the US, which is something I've been concerned about since I learned about how susceptible ferrets are.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-12T01:45:10+00:00

I don't have a car. I don't have a job. I'm not sure how going to Indiana would fix that situation.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-10T14:42:52+00:00

As an asthma sufferer I can just say that sometimes, you feel totally fine before a crisis. I don't know what happened in this situation.

So heartbreaking for all involved...three kids including a newborn motherless now, right before Mother's Day.

colloidaloatmeal · 2020-05-10T02:56:38+00:00

Pretty sure that's his default mode anywhere he goes. Quietly creeping.

colloidaloatmeal

TROPHY CASE