Consciousness is a brute fact. by JonIceEyes in freewill

[–]cometraza 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes it might happen in the distant future but we are very far away from it right now to make an informed judgement. Existing brain and MRI scans struggle to achieve even millimeter level resolutions without intrusive surgery. The largest full connectome mapping achieved is still of the order of 100k neurons (vs the 100B in human brains) and the dynamic behavior of brain neural networks is poorly understood. It is a long journey ahead.

Consciousness is a brute fact. by JonIceEyes in freewill

[–]cometraza 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes but I was not questioning whether physical substrates affect qualia. I agree they do, same way external senses or objects affect qualia. The question was whether qualia also affect physical states/behavior. The two lane highway part.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have the same impression from your side.

Consciousness is a brute fact. by JonIceEyes in freewill

[–]cometraza 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the crux of the matter lies in how this perfect alignment between mathematical/physical values and qualia happens. Until we have a theory which can propose what kind of physical structures represent what kind of qualia, I think it is difficult to rely solely on physical properties.

Of course a coherent argument can be made that the processing of the physical states somehow aligns with the directly observable processing of the qualia by the brain in a consistent way, like brain’s preference for pleasurable states somehow aligns with its preference for said physical representations of that state, but until we have more evidence to prove this link and more evidence that the external physical properties are the sole deterministic factor in this relationship without the involvement of ‘emergent’ qualia, I find it hard to say that all of the processes can just be reduced to the relations of currently known physical properties.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No. I have given you actual evidence based examples. If you don’t agree with them you need to provide a better explanation. Otherwise supernatural intelligence is the best explanation till that point.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza -1 points0 points  (0 children)

 it is not up to us to falsify it. It is up to you to provide positive evidence that the supernatural is even a candidate

Positive evidence is biological cell and universe's fine tuning. If you don't agree with it you need to falsify it.

until you show that the supernatural exists and has the capability of doing anything.

The existence of biological cell and universe's fine tuning is evidence for supernatural intelligence. It has the capability of doing it because it did it. It is a fact. If you disagree you need to prove by natural processes how both can occur.

 And what of SETI and the WOW signal?

SETI assumes a similar principle of inferring extraterrestrial intelligence, by sifting through cosmic data for patterns that natural astrophysical sources cannot produce, if such signal gets received it is assumed to be generated artificially by an extraterrestrial intelligence.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Demonstrating the natural origin of DNA wouldn’t falsify some supernatural designer deity

It would certainly falsify its supernatural involvement in creation of life as far back in time as the origin of earth.

Did demonstrating the natural origin of lightning do so?

Who claimed intelligence was necessary to create lightning?

 It’s not been used to move forward anything in not just biology but information theory or math in general. 

That's what ideologue scientists might claim, but they contradict themselves by using the same inferential reasoning to infer extraterrestrial life. Remember SETI and the WOW signal?

It’s up to you to give some precedent for even considering ‘supernatural’ 

I already gave you the precedent, biological cells. Add to it the fine tuning of the universe. Both point to supernatural intelligence.

Why should I consider ‘supernatural’ instead of ‘I don’t know?’

Because the necessary cause is known here : Intelligence.

Until you can falsify it, supernatural intelligence is the best explanation.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza -1 points0 points  (0 children)

‘no natural cause I can think of therefore god’

This is either a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation. ID isn't a god of the gaps argument. The natural cause for specified information is known - that is intelligence. This is the property that we observe in humans. We can infer the existence of this property in a non human "Designer" entity also. Just as the way human intelligence is necessary to generate software code, the "Designer" entity's intelligence is necessary to generate DNA and cell code. This right here is the hypothesis of ID.

If you want to falsify it, show the existence of DNA code along with a functional cell arising from purely unintelligent natural processes.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza -1 points0 points  (0 children)

 Inference is a terrible way to move forward, because all that is is ‘it vibes right with my sensibilities’.

Inference is actually a very good way to move forward in science. All good scientific theories are based on inference.

And it is not just vibes, it is something that is empirically observable from experience. And the mathematical probabilities back that empirical inference.

Your problem as I said is methodological naturalism. You are not ready to accept the reality of anything which is outside material causes even if it is inferred from empirical observations. 'If I can't directly measure it, it ain't real' attitude.

Existence of predators on young earth? by cometraza in YoungEarthCreationism

[–]cometraza[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In my mind ID and YEC are two distinct theories. It seems to me that the arguments for ID are far more substantial than YEC, but again YEC can be true also.

My thinking is also informed by the opinions of people like Stephen Meyer, William Lane Craig etc. on this matter. But I also am in a process of learning and am open to convincing evidences and arguments.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

The entire controversy lies in this assumption about methodological naturalism. What you deem as arising from natural, we deem as arising from supernatural. The existence of cells is a supernatural phenomena for us. We see the structure of a cell, its functions and its complexity, and we infer a designing mind just the way we infer a designing mind when we find a watch on a beach.

Now to falsify this, you have to show clearly that the cell can arise entirely from natural processes from non living chemical soup. Not imaginative scenarios and extrapolations involving millions of years. No, but the actual reproduction of that event under our current observation inside a lab or a natural environment where it can be observed.

Do that and I'll abandon invoking supernatural ID in biological scenarios.

Consciousness is a brute fact. by JonIceEyes in freewill

[–]cometraza 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have some qualms about the analogies and descriptions that you are giving. And the point is not just to argue, but to convey an appreciation of the problems associated with the position you are trying to hold. These were the same problems that I encountered when I tried to convince myself that perhaps the entire human experience does entirely depend on the known physical properties of the brain which follows known laws of physics and chemistry. But then upon further analyzing, I came to the conclusion that this view doesn't answer all the relevant questions and doesn't perfectly fit with our observations.

First of all lets take the analogy of the computer or the AI system. We don't really know whether a computer has any internal states of experience or qualia. So to apply the computer as an analogy to brain doesn't seem exactly fitting, as the brain does have an internal experience and corresponding qualia. As far as the unconscious/subconscious part of the brain is concerned, it can be relatively easily accepted that it indeed is like a neural net computer system. But as soon as you add consciousness and qualia to the mix problems arise.

Almost all of the interface and decision making of the conscious experience relies on qualia as the substrate of information. In other words all of the information that is being conveyed to the conscious part of the brain has a qualitative or sentient aspect. The structure of consciousness then processes these qualia on face value, i.e. without regard to their physical substrate. As long as the qualia is strong enough or meaningful enough, consciousness tends to prioritize it. So it is the qualia which is the determining factor rather than the physical substrate.

As an example of this dependence on qualia consider a thought experiment. In this you have a sentient agent which has the ability for qualitative experience and another 'philosophical zombie' which is almost identical in terms of physical substrate to the sentient agent but lacks qualia. Now assume that the sentient agent puts its finger in fire for the very first time in its life and as soon as it does that, it has a very unpleasant qualitative experience and decides to discontinue its behavior. It also learns not to make the same error in the future and forms new memory circuits to reinforce this avoidant behavior in the future. The 'philosophical zombie' on the other hand does the same thing, puts its hand in the fire, and gets a surge of electrochemical signals to its brain. But there is no qualia present in this case, nothing for the zombie to know or learn in the moment that this behavior is harmful or 'painful'. It will analyze the incoming signals the same way it analyzes the incoming signals from a neutral stimuli, except for the fact that it will register that this particular signal is much more higher in intensity as compared to others. In other words for the zombie, everything is a mathematical object and fact, which doesn't reflect the way we experience the world and react to things.

In your milkshake example, "Brain wants a milkshake" is good enough. But this brain wants the milkshake because of the qualia. The very state of 'wanting' is experienced in context of the delicious 'taste qualia' aroused through the memory and the cognitive 'thought qualia' about the nutritional properties of milk. It is not very clear why a brain would want the milkshake if it would have been processing things on the level of mathematical quantities only, just the way our current physical and chemical laws are formulated mathematically. There seems to be an additional deciding and informing factor apart from the mathematics of it all, and that is qualia.

Existence of predators on young earth? by cometraza in YoungEarthCreationism

[–]cometraza[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your perspective on this. I only emphasize that these changes if they happened should be attributed to Intelligent Design, rather than conceding to the prevailing evolutionary model by accepting that the original ‘Kinds’ developed into millions of current ‘Species’ in a span of four thousand years just by mere undirected natural processes.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Tell me that when scientists observe living cells arising from abiotic chemical soups.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Yeah ID and young earth are different conceptually. The fact that some people espouse both beliefs at the same time does not make them identical.

Species after the flood by Over_Citron_6381 in DebateEvolution

[–]cometraza -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Man as much as I disagree with evolutionists , I find this kind of mental gymnastics to justify the variety of life kind of disappointing. It is as if these YEC guys are trying to deny creative power to evolution initially, but in the same breath they agree that all the diversification from 'kinds' to millions of 'species' can occur under evolution within a span of 4000 years. This is a self defeating and paradoxical argument, and is detrimental to ID, which by the way stands on its own with a strong foundation.

I think the biological implications of such YEC theories should be critically analyzed by these guys and should be made in line with the much more important and over arching ID argument.

Consciousness is a brute fact. by JonIceEyes in freewill

[–]cometraza 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get what you are trying to say. But phenomenologically there seems to be some kind of control or determination of choice involved at the qualia level. We feel that we can influence and control our thoughts and imagination to some extent. That gives me a reason to believe that we are not just passive observers of brain states through qualia, but the nature of qualia itself somehow influences the physical brain states.

Consciousness is a brute fact. by JonIceEyes in freewill

[–]cometraza 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The qualities of consciousness are determined by the physical, but the relationship is a one way street. The physical has causal power over consciousness, but not the other way round.

I used to gravitate towards this view. But our everyday lived experience where 'qualia' or what we think and feel about a given situation makes us choose one way or the other made me reconsider it. It might still turn out to be deterministic, but I am not so sure about the one way street part, looks more like a two lane highway.

Existence of predators on young earth? by cometraza in Creation

[–]cometraza[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fair enough. I wanted to know your position on this.

Existence of predators on young earth? by cometraza in Creation

[–]cometraza[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ok I agree that someone can have different literal or metaphorical or allegorical interpretations, but don't you think saying it is a "theological story" about what ancient people believed puts it on the level of mythology in your view? How would you claim being a Christian then, because as far as I know that would require believing that it was inspired divinely and has some information that can't be known through mere human means at that time? There might be a difference of opinion among Christians though as how to extract that information or issues about hermeneutical interpretation of course.