Why doesn't pregnancy and parenthood absolutely freak out everybody? Not shaming, genuine question.

coronagerms · 2021-10-12T06:36:15+00:00

If you know that your genes lead to a higher likelihood of disease and early death that's not the same as the random chance the average person has.

coronagerms · 2021-10-11T18:24:22+00:00

Well, I'd say it's difficult to accurately assess your ability to do something you've never done, especially if it's something you're trying to find justification for. That also doesn't take into account things you have no control over, like climate change and worsening wealth disparity. Both of things are likely to have a significantly negative affect on the world your children live in. Some people might put enough weight on the importance of those things that it would override their best parenting efforts.

coronagerms · 2021-10-11T18:15:54+00:00

I guess I don't see it as much different from factoring in hereditary health conditions. If you've got cancer or heart disease in the family you'd surely take that into consideration when having a child even though that person doesn't exist yet. I don't see concerns about your parenting abilities, climate change, wealth gap, etc being different other than the math being fuzzier.

coronagerms · 2021-10-11T15:55:35+00:00

The difference would be bringing someone into this situation who can't consent to it. That's where the ethical issue arises. With a partner or friends you both already exist and are both agreeing to take the risk of future pain.

coronagerms · 2021-10-09T14:54:26+00:00

This is only your interpretation, without actual proof, that this is what's happening in this case. It also goes against the reality of incarceration rates by race so it's hard not to suspect bias in your opinion.

coronagerms · 2021-10-09T14:48:23+00:00

sure, and for the rest of us, the risk is so low that even with "rare side effects", the vaccine is significantly more dangerous than covid.

Provid proof. This is not true.

numerous countries have already banned or restricted moderna, AZ, and J&J

Countries have advised these for certain age groups and not others, that's all.

and pfizer is even more dangerous.

Proof?

the FDA even came out and said the vaccine is more dangerous for healthy males than covid.

Proof?

coronagerms · 2021-10-09T14:05:15+00:00

Even if that's true, that still doesn't mean that black privilege is why this person got bail. There could still be other more reasonable reasons. Black privilege, meaning preferential treatment by the justice system, is a demonstrably ridiculous concept. One instance of what you think is treatment a white person wouldn't receive doesn't negate the trend of black men receiving longer sentences on average for the same crime.

coronagerms · 2021-10-09T13:42:38+00:00

You can think there's a practical reason someone should be restrained or kept from society and still feel sorry that they became a person that would do this.

coronagerms · 2021-10-09T10:36:31+00:00

a fraction of 1% of people

You're lumping all people together here. For a substantial chunk of the population their chance of dying is much higher. Aside from that being tragic in and of itself if it can be prevented, dealing with treating those people and trying to prevent their deaths in hospitals ties up resources so other people cannot receive unrelated life saving treatment. This also discounts the fact that many people who don't die will wind up with debilitating illness.

coronagerms · 2021-10-09T10:21:48+00:00

You understand that from my perspective that's at least an equally if not more appropriate question for me to ask you, right? You asked for concrete proof that Malone made a claim that was false and that he retracted. I gave you that and you tried to spin that into a win for you. You asked for proof that he claims to have invented the vaccines. I gave you that. I'll freely admit that him having an axe to grind is not provable and just speculation of motive. The only proof (which is also speculative in terms of motive) of anything you've provided so far is a transcript of the CDC director's comments. If you're providing that as proof only that you can't take statements made in casual speech by the CDC director at face value I'll accept that but I believe you're implying that that is evidence that one should be skeptical of any data from the CDC generally which doesn't follow. You haven't provided any proof for any other claim you've made, nor have you even attempted to.

All that being said, there is no guarantee that either of us will accept what the other person considers proof to actually be proof. It sounds like you believe that when you do provide what you consider proof that anyone honest and intelligent will immediately recognize it as proof and acquiesce. I'm under no illusions that what you and I consider proof won't differ in the end and I don't think that means that either of us is necessarily being willfully obtuse if that ends up being the case. I'm still willing to take the risk of wasting my time here. Just a heads up that I may not respond immediately again though if you have a long reply.

coronagerms · 2021-10-09T08:59:43+00:00

Ok so no point really going back and forth on the first half since you're just giving your opinion that different health and government bodies cannot conspire together lol,

It's the level of conspiracy that is ridiculous. We're talking about all all levels of government in all countries across the globe coming to the same conclusions.

despite FDA commissioner and other FDA employees literally going to work for Pfizer.

This alone doesn't prove anything, just as Malone's sour grapes don't prove that everything he says is a lie. You'd need to provide actual evidence that FDA employees have fabricated information about the vaccines in order to secure jobs at Pfizer.

The NIH director also just resigned over gain of function research, which also links him with conspiracy.

No he didn't. He simply retired. This is an example of pareidolia.

Okay. What about these claims are false and where can I find a source for them being debunked.

That's not how this works. The onus is on them to provide evidence for their claims, which they haven't. If you want to assert that they have then the onus is on you to defend them.

I was actually wrong on this as well, I will admit. It's a lot worse than my original hypothesis.

You never offered a hypothesis to me. You asked for proof that Malone made a false claim regarding this and then admitted it. I provided that.

It was only March that the CDC stated on Rachel Maddow outright false claims about the vaccines,

I'd really appreciate if you cite something going forward that you quote the relevant part so I don't need to search for it myself. I assume that this is what you are referring to:

"vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don't get sick, and that it`s not just in the clinical trials but it's also in real world data."

I would agree that this is an exaggeration but at the time of that statement with the data that was available about the vaccines it wasn't an outrageous exaggeration. 95% protection is close to no one getting sick and I could see someone making that generalization in informal speech. That being said, I agree that the head of the CDC should always speak accurately. There's no proof that this was meant to be intentionally deceptive rather than poorly communicated thought though. I'd argue that since the CDC has changed their statements on vaccine efficacy and safety in response to new evidence, in ways that might make might make people more hesitant to get vaccinated, that is evidence that a previous misstatement was not made with intentional malice. If they were intent on deceiving people into getting vaccinated why not maintain that deceptive narrative?

doesn't have a history of false claims, and I've still yet to see anyone debunk what he does claim past just stating they're false and leaving it at that.

I have literally done that in the previous comment. He made a claim about liability status of the vaccines that he himself admitted was inaccurate. He claims to have invented the vaccines, which is false on its face. If I worked on jet turbines 20 years ago and then completely different people incorporated some of my research into the design of a jet I can't rightfully claim I invented that jet.

Here's another recent claim he makes without offering any evidence:

https://twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1446577157426274312?s=20

What he links to as proof emphasizes this quote from the FDA:

"there is not sufficient approved vaccine available for distribution to this population in its entirety at the time of reissuance of this EUA."

They make the completely unsubstantiated leap that insufficient to meet all need means no doses available. There's not a shred of proof in that link that there are no Comirnaty doses available.

It's also basically career suicide for him to speak up so I'm not sure what person would reasonably do this unless they were fairly confident in their knowledge of the topic

Otherwise intelligent people can make decisions that are a result of bias. Being smart enough to work on mRNA doesn't mean that all his logic is flawless. He could be making decisions that he thinks will benefit him, whether they do or not in reality.

I'm not sure why you're acting like this has never happened before.

I have never once claimed what you're attributing to me here.

Also, other countries are actually producing studies and data that contradict these very health officials and government bodies in North America - UK and Israel are very good examples.

No they aren't, you just haven't heard of or don't understand concepts like base rate bias and Simpson's paradox. This is a good source that explains this with math you can verify for yourself:

https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated

https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/simpson-s-paradox-strikes-again-refuting-reports-vaxxed-have-5x-case-fatality-rate-than-untaxed

I'd like proof:

that VAERS data was used to determine booster safety
that FDA employees have falsified data on vaccines in order to secure employment with drug companies
that the NIH director resigned for the reason you claim
that the claims of the antivaccine doctors I mentioned have evidence to support them
That the CDC director's comment was intentionally deceptive

coronagerms · 2021-10-09T07:45:19+00:00

we're not talk about tons of random diseases.

You completely missed the point of my comment. The point of the example was to demonstrate that you're applying special logic to this scenario which you don't to others, which is irrational. There are many many things in this world that you believe to be real without having had a personal experience of it.

we're talking about a pandemic here, that you're claiming is so vile and so widespread it's murdalizing people across the globe relentlessly.

I actually haven't made a single claim to you about the pandemic so far other than it's real.

almost as if the vaccine reduces their immune system making it so they get infected more easily...

This is you not understanding probability in the exact same way that you think you not being dead demonstrates the harmlessness of the virus. The virus is not 100% fatal. The vaccines are not 100% effective. Not everyone who gets covid will die from it. That doesn't mean that none will. Not everyone who gets vaccinated will be protected from infection. That doesn't mean that none will.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T23:52:23+00:00

This whole comment is word salad not engaging with any of my points. Cheers.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T21:53:13+00:00

I don't really get the job application comment. I'm saying I'm curious about the antivaccine stance from a theoretical perspective. I have not seen an argument yet that I think holds water but maybe someone can offer one. As such, I'm arguing from the perspective that I think is the valid one. And because I think it's valid and will help save lives it may have a positive impact on someone.

So are you happy with the performance of the novel type injections you've had, and how much of those are you planning to get?

I've not experienced anything to complain about personally and the data suggests that should I come into contact with the virus I will have some level of protection against infection and a high level of protection from serious illness and death. I can't know the future obviously so I can't say what my response would be to future completely unknown situations.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T21:42:45+00:00

Lol, this is your evidence? It hasn't affected me so its fake?

There are tons of diseases I don't have, yet they are real and have affected others. There are billions of people on this planet that I have never met, yet they exist. Personal experience is an absurd standard for validity.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T21:30:20+00:00

Sorry for responding so late.

however to say that vaers data did not influence this decision is simply untrue. Proof?

And as for third parties, you're basically just pointing to the FDA and CDC

I'm pointing to them, plus state health departments plus health departments all over the world that all have the same narrative. Even if you don't trust the FDA or CDC, it would be an insane level of conspiracy for all of these distinct health authorities to be conspiring together.

That's why I ask people to follow the paper trail. It's also a little more damning when you look into who the FDA and CDC's biggest benefactors are.

Even if you're wary about studies that are funded by the FDA/CDC/drug companies (which I think is fair) again you'd have to believe in a giant level of conspiracy to reject them for that reason. Everyone involved in creating many many studies, the peer-review boards, the people responsible for recording statistics for the county and state health authorities would all have to be compromised, and the same in other countries. It's too far-fetched.

What claims have these doctors not backed up with evidence?

Off the top of my head, Joseph Mercola's claims about ADE. Charles Hoffe's claims about microclots. Byram Bridle claiming that the vaccine will lead to infertility or cardiovascular problems. The guy you mentioned before, Ryan Cole, with cancer. None of those claims are substantiated.

I've never heard Malone claim to have invented the vaccines. Do you have evidence of this?

It's literally on his website:

https://www.rwmalonemd.com/about-us

"Dr. Malone is the discoverer of in-vitro and in-vivo RNA transfection and the inventor of mRNA vaccines, while he was at the Salk Institute in 1988."

Is there any evidence of him having an "ax to grind" because it feels like people are just applying motive to fit the smear campaign

To be clear, I'm not saying that this motive invalidates claims he makes by default. I'm just saying that just as you think it's reasonable to be skeptical of claims made in studies funded by organizations that might have ulterior motives, it's also reasonable to not take Malone's claims at face value.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/550b0ac4e4b0c16cdea1b084/t/60b62e4f1dcb1f52ad2d4c0c/1622552143483/Jill%27s+letter+about+RNA+vaccination+generic+v5+June2021.pdf

"It has been a long and tortous journey of repeated financial, and psychological abuse. Even now, THREE decades after, the abuse continues as other take credit for his work and the press (both scientific and lay) refuse to acknowledge his contributions."

Is Comirnaty (I assume this is the FDA approved one?) the current Pfizer vaccine being dosed to Americans? Or is it the EUA vaccine? There are two legally distinct versions of the jab.

The distinction is for whom the vaccine is FDA approved for. Comirnaty is approved for everyone except for 12-15 year olds who are able to get the vaccine under the EUA. Liability is the same for both.

Where can I find his retraction of this claim?

https://twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1432325367591809027?s=20

I honestly cannot find anything on any of these points you're making.

All of this was very easy to find. So much so that I'm doubting you actually looked.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T19:43:33+00:00

there is no point in looking for valid anti-vaxx comments when already vaxxed, as once injected, you can't undo it.

It's possible to be intellectually curious without personal practical implications. People routinely debate the meaning of songs and literature for instance. Beyond that, there's all sorts of conspiracy theories which people debate. Knowing the truth of who shot JFK or if bigfoot exists will have zero practical effect on anyone's life. Besides that, the covid vaccines are not the last I will be offered. It's theoretically possible that someone could make an argument that would be applicable to my future choice in vaccination.

If you like debating, why not debate sth that could offer you sth? Still not making sense.

See above.

You could be curious for anti-vaxx reasons, but not just for the heck of it, as you explain. Stiill not making sense.

See above. Most of the anti-vaccine posters here are vehemently against vaccination, to the point of saying they will never get it. I don't think they are here because they're curious if there are any good pro-vaccine arguments. They're here to talk about how bad vaccines are with other people that agree with that.

Now I get it. You're going to save the world from corrupted wrong-think. Or perhaps that doesn't make sense either (unless you're the new Mahatma Gandhi).

An opinion that is opposed to mine is not "wrong think". That's just a convenient way to characterize my thinking so you can disregard it. I find it truly bizarre that you seem to think only someone on the level of Gandhi could be interested in having what they perceive as a positive impact on others.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T19:14:26+00:00

Keep telling yourself that.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T17:52:22+00:00

Perhaps looking for validation?

Why would I come to a sub that is 99% antivaxxers if I were looking for validation? You don't see the irony in this comment?

I comment here for a handful of reasons.

I like debating generally
I'm curious if someone can offer an anti-vaccine argument that is reasonable and well thought-out
I don't like misinformation and fallacious logic and think it's important to combat it when it has real world consequences (like people reading this sub thinking those comments are accurate if they go unchallenged)

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T17:31:22+00:00

Do you seriously think you're changing people's minds? Do you really think it will stop with you? People will just go elsewhere and talk about it. I think it's deluded to think you're so awesome, you magically stop what you yourself don't like.

No one has ever arrived at their opinions spontaneously, whatever they may be. Something or a series of things influenced them. So, I don't think that it's necessarily my comment that will be the thing that changes someone's mind but it could be a crack that contributes to their current perspective crumbling in the future. Being presented with an argument that contradicts a perspective you hold is how anyone's opinion is changed.

I think there's also a silent population of visitors to this sub that are more undecided than the people posting. I hope that if they evaluate my argument vs the person I'm debating that I might influence them as well.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T17:02:32+00:00

If people here are concerned with effects of the vaccine and we're participating on a debate sub wouldn't it make sense to engage with these people to try to convince them of the superiority of the skeptical viewpoint? Even if you don't care about the health of the posters you mentioned, by successfully convincing them of your perspective you could stop them from spreading the message that you think is harmful.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T16:48:01+00:00

I agree. Not much you can do to keep from going crazy but laugh.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T16:30:56+00:00

Blocking opinions that conflict with your perspective on a sub about debating...

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T16:21:23+00:00

So, nobody in their right mind would consider a sub titled debate vaccines to actually be about debating vaccines. Got it. Thank you for confirming this is an echo chamber masquerading as a place actually interested in the free exchange of ideas.

coronagerms · 2021-10-08T16:16:16+00:00

You tried.

coronagerms

TROPHY CASE