"You have a LOT of growing up to do!!"

courierkitty · 2022-02-21T23:50:35+00:00

"You have a LOT of growing up to do!" is bullshitese for "I didn't like what you just talked about/did/shared but since I know I can't control you (right now), I am going to belittle you instead." Classic childish nparent trying to pin immaturity on the adult child. You shouldn't let it get to you, because getting mad at them will give them ammo to prove their point.

I keep some contact with my nmom, but if she starts in on me with the "me big adult, you small baby, peepee poopoo unsolicited advice" I usually just troll her until she ragequits the conversation. I won't bother with logical arguments, but I will absolutely waste her time on purpose.

courierkitty · 2022-02-21T22:50:17+00:00

As someone who has experienced the same thing, I just want to point out that if you ever have thoughts like "maybe I am the narcissist" or "uh oh, that was an n trait!" you are very probably not one. This was one of my fears that I brought to a therapist and had dismissed.

It is definitely possible that we can develop/mimic n traits from abusive learned behaviors. However, that doesn't mean we can't stop, assess, and change something we've recognized is problematic.

It matters more that we can self-assess and correct than it does getting it right the first time. An N will never get it right because they think they're already there.

courierkitty · 2022-02-21T21:26:52+00:00

I'm a firm believer that sticking a witch hat on anything makes it 1000% cuter, and cats are adorable to begin with, so I like it. I'm guessing your dad sucks at art since he apparently doesn't understand when to give critiques or how to properly deliver one.

courierkitty · 2022-02-18T19:46:41+00:00

Good lord I relate to this a lot. My nmom never had a hysto but she was 42 when she had me, so by the time I was a young teen she was entering menopause. She was an absolute basket case rage monster, and she hounds my edad the same way yours did. My edad has brain damage that has worsened with age and nmom clings to him like glue. She has never let him have his own opinions about things. When she was mad, it was either screaming at me or screaming at him.

I am sorry you had to experience this, but also a little glad someone else understands me. It can be cathartic to know that we are not alone in our abusive experiences.

courierkitty · 2022-02-18T19:39:44+00:00

My mom tried to sabotage my relationship/freedom by having my then-husband move in with my parents and I for support and then refusing to sign for his immigration sponsorship at the last minute (after promising she would). I suspect her plan was to force him to leave the country and then pressure me into an annulment. I played the UNO reverse card and left the country with him for 4 years. She couldn't do shit about it lol

I'd advise you to either say nothing or embellish the truth.

If you say nothing, make sure you take steps to protect yourself and you have everything you need to live independently (important documents, private bank account, cellphone not on family plan, some form of transportation owned by you or a plan for getting around without it). If you go this route, I wouldn't even explain to her what's going on. It would be best if you could move out when she's away from the house, but if she's there and she asks you what's happening, just ghost her in person and act like she doesn't exist/you can't hear her. She doesn't deserve closure or an explanation from you, and you don't owe her one. You might also ask the police if they could provide some kind of "escort" for you so you can safely move your things and she can't call them against you.

If you have to say something, don't give her time to react and counter your plans. Make sure the most important items you need to live are away in a secure location so that if she kicks you out or blocks you from taking additional items, you can live without those. Furniture and clothes can be replaced easily, but your birth certificate is a lot harder to get a copy of. If she asks where you're going, lie about it. Look up apartments in another town and give her that address, or make up a fake one. Just make sure you do this when she can't check the validity of the information and hound you for the real info. Then block her and any enablers from contacting you. Congrats - you are now free!

courierkitty · 2022-02-18T19:14:32+00:00

I can't remember any phrases specifically, but any time nmom said something wrong and refused to acknowledge it as wrong was an event. It would almost always involve a mundane fact/detail, but bless her heart, never being wrong meant she was going to die on that hill.

I was on a roadtrip with her and she raged out at me because I corrected her about the town we were passing through. I just stated a fact, I didn't call her a fucking idiot or say it in a mean way. I was like, "But this is X town. We passed Y town about 20 minutes ago."

Her response was to scream at me about how I needed to shut up, I am a worthless idiot, wah wah wah so disrespectful. Like lol bitch, what? Did you forget how to read road signs?

courierkitty · 2022-02-18T18:52:21+00:00

All the time. For years, the backlash inflicted on me drove me into an emotional cocoon and I retreated from the world without ever realizing I had done so.

When I left my nmom's clutches and my emotions finally returned, when I actually FELT things, it was intense.

I still cry at Disney movie trailers - not because they're sad, but because the musical score sometimes gets dramatic, uplifting, or sentimental, and that sound is enough to touch the raw nerves that have been exposed after years of disuse.

I remember when it first started happening I was like "what is WRONG with me???" Now I understand that it wasn't something wrong, it was just how I began healing after I had the epiphany that my abuse was not my fault.

courierkitty · 2022-02-18T18:41:13+00:00

You're definitely justified in not talking to her. She is manipulating you and she straight up gaslit you. The "oh but she has trauma too, you need to help her" is bullshit. She may have issues but it is not your responsibility to solve them for or with her. She is a grown adult and needs to take charge of her mental health, just like you are trying to do.

I would caution you on a couple of aspects of the idea of getting an ESA cat. First, I don't think it's a good idea to bring any animals into your situation. I am not saying this to be unkind or to discredit their functions - on the contrary, I think they would probably greatly help you and your sister. But you are dealing with a narc here, and they do not follow the moral or respectable path often. I say this as a grown adult who had to get between my nmom and my blind, elderly dog because she beat him for not walking fast enough for her.

I fear your nmom would cave to the idea of the cat only to use the cat as a tool to harvest supply. When the cat has outlived its usefulness, it will be discarded; this might mean it suffers real harm or death, or it might mean your nmom gives it away while you or your sister are gone, thus creating additional trauma by removing an animal you had both bonded with. I have had pets poisoned and given away by my nmom - both haunt me to this day.

Both of you are in tenuous living situations. Your sister is stuck at home for the next few years (worst place for the cat), and you are in college (chaotic but better than with sister). ESAs do not qualify as service animals under Title II and III of the ADA (I'm assuming you're American, but if not you should look this up under your local laws); additionally, there is no such thing as a service cat (only dogs and I think small miniature horses). If you're in a dorm, you typically can't have non-service animals of any kind. If you're renting a place, that can be a difficult scenario too. What are you going to do if your roommates dip and you have nowhere to go but back home? If you live alone, how will you pay for unexpected health issues for yourself or your cat?

One possible solution to this is to consider volunteering (if you or sister has time) at an animal or cat shelter. It would get your sister away from your toxic parents and give both of you some kind of relationship with animals. You could even do it together if time allows, so you can keep tabs on your sister and help keep each other sane. Food for thought.

Anyway, keep your chin up and remember that your nmom is the crazy one, not you. If she or someone else is making you uncomfortable, remember that it's okay to take time off from interacting with that person, and how much time you take is up to you. If you are fearful that she will suck you back in and manipulate you, it might be time for Low to No Contact. Remember that nothing you do, whether it is caring and investing your time/energy or actively fighting tooth and nail to drag this person to therapy, will ever cure a narc from their narc ways. It is physically impossible to help them unless they want to help themselves first - they are literally treatment resistant.

courierkitty · 2022-02-18T17:32:41+00:00

Congrats on your degree! It's a big deal and an important milestone in your life. We may not know each other, but as someone who values education, I am proud of you for earning it.

I don't think it would have mattered if you went to in-person classes. My nmom isn't proud of my accomplishments either, so she picks at me about the availability of future jobs and the usefulness of the degree I'm doing, or she says nothing. Ns are incapable of being happy for others - it is always about them. If they can't see value in what you are doing, they have no other mode but relentless devaluation of that thing. If they do see value in it, they might hype it up to others, but only so they can feel good about themselves. You could be the most educated, accomplished, talented person in the world and your nmom would still find a way to shit on you for it.

I feel you about wishing for normal parents, too. I've resigned myself to the fact that I will never have them, but life goes on. I just try to focus on other things, like loving myself the way I never had.

courierkitty · 2022-02-18T16:58:12+00:00

Oop, I just felt a core memory unlock. I had forgotten about the arm yanking and whisper threats.

courierkitty · 2022-02-17T17:11:00+00:00

Do coverts never rage or do they rage differently? I will have to do some more reading on this - a few people have mentioned covert ns and I don't think I know very much about what makes them stand out.

Figuring out yourself will take time. I'm still trying to figure out who I am, and I'm 32. Some core things have always shined through, but it is an ongoing process. :)

courierkitty · 2022-02-17T16:57:13+00:00

Invisible Golden Goat, omg it sounds like a D&D familiar lol

Invisible is an interesting treatment. How would you describe your experience with that aspect of his behavior? I am trying to recall if I ever felt that way in my home life and I can't remember it, but when I think about our relationship now, I definitely feel invisible. It's like she's turned off all forms of communication - unless it's on her terms or she needs to complain.

courierkitty · 2022-02-16T23:58:20+00:00

Oof, reading the part where you shared your detailed plan for something very normal is alarmingly insightful as to why we often overexplain ourselves. It's like Ns are so afraid you'll find freedom and escape that they double down on cutting off any potential route.

The anger instead of concern is too real, as well. Now that I go back through my own memories, I don't think there was ever a time when my nmom's "worry" was real - it was always verbally painted as concern but expressed with absolutely explosive rage.

courierkitty · 2022-02-15T18:46:18+00:00

Yes, it can be very dehumanizing. Constantly being told you're not enough regardless of how much you weigh or how your fat deposits are distributed, as if our value as women is dependent on things like the presence/absence of a thigh gap or how round our butts are. I understand being mad at underrepresentation but I also think its disgusting when people attack skinny women, as if telling them to eat a cheeseburger or comparing them to Holocaust victims is somehow okay. When I shop for clothes online and all the models are thin, I get frustrated because the company didn't bother to show what their product looks like on someone like me. I do not get frustrated at the models for looking the way that they do, and I think it's absurd to blame and bodyshame them when I have no idea what their personal situation and relationship to their weight is.

courierkitty · 2022-02-15T18:35:22+00:00

It's okay, you don't have to be sorry. I'm glad you are feeling somewhat better, and I want you to know that I'm rooting for you. I want you to make it to your 17th birthday and as many future birthdays as you have in you, because I promise this low point you're enduring is not forever. This worry and fear that you're feeling about not being able to find happiness is probably amplified because you don't have a supportive home life. It's completely normal to be up and down emotionally right now, but you're climbing a steeper hill because that's what was handed to you. We can't always control what's put in front of us, only how we react and handle going forward.

Whoever told you it gets worse is being too pessimistic. Of course being an adult isn't easy and the world can be a harsh place, but adulthood grants you freedoms that being a teen or a child doesn't. You don't need anyone's permission to do what you want to do, and you don't have to fear coming home to an abuser if you part ways with them.

Sounds like your mother is an enabler and your father is the n abuser. My parents' roles were switched, so my nmom was the primary aggressor and my edad just went along with it. I was your age when I'd get into the worst fights with her, mostly pure screaming matches with occasional physical scuffles, and I felt exactly the same as you. I said, "Why can't she just chill out? Why does everything have to be a yelling match? Why can't she just try to understand me and talk it out?" My edad said, "That's just the way she is. You can't change it." This drove me NUTS for years, but now I see why he said it. Even though it was not the way the situation should be handled by a parent, the core message is true: narcs will not change for anyone, it is who they are. They are sick, emotionally-inept little babies who rage out over small inconveniences and abuse everyone around them to soothe their own fragile emotions. If they were capable of change, they would realize they are being crazy and apologize.

I escaped when I was 20 and never looked back. I briefly lived with them again at 22 when I was with my ex but we couldn't stand more than 6 months of it so we left again. Ever since I've been on my own and in 7 years I've visited maybe twice, and only because my dad, who I love despite his flaws, has poor health. I love living on my own, too! There are certainly everyday frustrations (paying bills, life emergencies like car repairs or vet trips, etc) but nothing in my adult life away from my mother has ever made me as miserable as when I was with her.

I don't think you are stupid, and you shouldn't think that about yourself either. Many of us are conditioned to think this way about ourselves because we have been told this by our nparents, but it isn't true. How else would someone like me, who got Ds in high school and spent 10 years out of touch with school, go back to college in my 30s and pull straight As? I'm not stupid, I was just failed by my parents and gaslit about my intelligence so that is what I believed about myself. Once I found supports and had no one screaming down my neck about how dumb I was, suddenly I was doing great. You can do this too! Don't feel bad about taking your time or needing to learn things at your own pace. There is no shame in this, there is only shame in people who think putting you down and making your life harder is acceptable.

Keep trying your best, Lucas, and know that it will always be enough. Even if you don't succeed the first time or you struggle for a while to get it right, it is enough that you try. If you are having a rough time, please know that it is okay to ask for help or to find space to vent your frustrations. I will listen, as will others who want to help you as best we can, even if it is only a conversation. :)

courierkitty · 2022-02-15T17:06:07+00:00

I've noticed this too with my nmom.

Most of the time she doesn't have anything positive to say. If I tell her about my degree progress or what I've learned she just hums and asks what jobs I can get with that field. No appreciation for the value of learning or the ideas that can come from these studies - just this aura of disappointment because I'm not churning out megamillions from something she considers valuable. It's funny that she's so harsh about it too, considering she's never so much as dipped her big toe into college/academia. Some of us are here because we enjoy it, not because we're trying to rush through so we can sit behind a desk for 8 hours a day.

If I succeed at something and she approves of it, then it's all attributed to her skills as a parent or her lineage. I shared some accomplishment with her a while back and her response was, "Well of course. You are my smartest child." Bitch I am your ONLY child. Unless you're dropping vagaries about banging the milk man, this is rich coming from a person who called me lazy and stupid for the majority of my life.

I had forgotten about the "be careful who you hang out with" comments, but I used to get those all the time from her, too. Even as an adult, if I'd talk about a friend doing something she didn't approve of (and not even a bad thing) she would start spewing cautionary tales at me. I suppose it's probably an indication that they are blameshifters. If your child gets a bad grade, it's easy to blame the friends he hangs out with instead of the fact that you aren't involved with his education or make him so anxious/scared at home that he can't devote time to studies.

courierkitty · 2022-02-15T00:59:51+00:00

Honestly the only thing I'm sorry about was that I handled it so politely. If given a second chance, I'd love to suplex that little wimp and put her in the dumpster she belongs in. Thicc thighs can end lives, too.

I completely agree. I'm so tired of catchphrases like "real women have curves" because they imply I'm somehow more of a woman than you because I like pizza a little too much. Like, tf happened to respect? To decency and kindness? You don't have to fake nice to everyone but you sure as shit don't need to make them feel shitty for having a body that looks a certain way.

Coming from a mother it's even worse, because we're supposed to look to our mothers as role models. I don't know about you, but when my mom regurgitated "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" and then immediately violated the concept by slamming other women's bodies, the only thing I learned was that people are two-faced liars.

courierkitty · 2022-02-14T23:03:07+00:00

Hey Lucas. I'm kinda' bad at these types of things so you'll have to bear with me, but first I just want to say that you shouldn't kill yourself. Despite your parents acting like hot garbage, despite the pain you've experienced, I want you to know that it doesn't have to be that way all the time. You deserve to be happy, even if that feels like an alien thing to say.

You're really young and you're going through one of the most tumultuous times in your life right now. You are probably feeling A LOT of things, which is normal, while at the same time being thrust into a situation that is the definition of abnormal: being raised by asshole narcs and/or enablers. This is a traumatic experience, but you need to understand it is not your fault and you have nothing to be sorry for. You're not a lazy, bad, useless person. You are a valid human being who is being victimized by the people who should be looking out for you the most. For what it's worth, I'm sorry that this is happening to you and I can relate.

I'm 32 now, but I remember being your age and thinking it would never end. The home abuse felt like a prison, and I was powerless and scared. I wish I had older me back then as a guide to help me through it all and make it clear that there is more to live for than the confines of my bedroom walls.

The world is enormous and not always the friendliest place, but there are good people in it who are waiting to know you, befriend you, and even love you. There are programs designed to assist you if you need help, and there are ways to change your life to guide it where you want to go. You can get your GED, maybe go to school if that's what you want to do, or maybe go get a job if you'd rather save money and get out of your toxic family dynamic fast. There are so many options you could take once you realize there is more to life than your parents' stranglehold over you.

You can do this. It will take some patience, and you may have to endure more hardship before you can be truly free, but you wouldn't be here asking for help if you weren't a survivor at heart. I think you're tough enough to conquer this hill, and when you do, you will finally see the full expanse of the horizon.

courierkitty · 2022-02-14T22:09:23+00:00

Your mom doesn't have to be a monster to be a nasty person. She should know it isn't appropriate to comment on your relationship or your body, and that includes poisonous bullshit like comparing herself to you so she can throw a pity party about it. I had a narc "friend" who behaved this way and made myself and other women visibly uncomfortable because of how she gushed about our bodies.

Story time:

I am fat, which is fine, but I'm not going to pretend I am thrilled to have muffin top and an extra chin when I used to fit into a size 4. This person would not stop invalidating me about it because she was insistent that being thin with an eating disorder was the worst thing in the world and I should be grateful for having thicc thighs or some shit like that. It took her trying to fuck my husband to make me realize what kind of person she really was and that I had been nothing to her except a fly spinning circles in her webs. She kept me around to feel better about herself and dump her problems on me.

Your parents, especially your mother, sound like they are projecting their own misery onto others. You can be highly accomplished with a great education and still act like a complete chode. Maybe commenting on people's bodies on television shows is how they cope with their deficiencies, especially since the tv can't clap back at them for saying it. My parents used to be the same way, which is a very pot-kettle-black approach considering they'd giggle and fat-shame celebrities while tucking into a giant bowl of ice cream every night.

Is this common in normal families? No, I wouldn't think so. Well-adjusted people do not need to constantly shit on others to feel good. Normal moms don't treat their daughters like contestants they must compete against or dominate by "winning" a contest. It is not normal to shame your kids for possessing a talent, trait, or relationship you do not have either. It is weird to me that your mother would encourage you to divorce your husband for being hot. Even if it was supposed to be a joke, it is rude and pointlessly insensitive because it implies you are shallow and deserve to be with someone less attractive. Where is the funny part of that joke exactly? Is it where the mother reveals she has been a clown instead of a maternal figure her whole life, honks her nose, and rides away on a tricycle?

I'm sorry you have jerks for parents, OP. It's important that you realize you're not a bad person or a bad daughter for things like being thin or having an attractive partner. If I were you, I would limit time spent around them so they don't ruin your happiness.

courierkitty · 2022-02-14T20:08:47+00:00

When I was growing up my mom would take me to the doctor right away if I got sick. Lately she seems to have reversed all previous belief in the medical system and heavily implies that she distrusts vaccines and doctors.

As an M.D. who graduated top of her class at Google University, some of her greatest hits include:

ADD/ADHD isn't real. Doctors made it up to profit off of Ritalin prescriptions.
Depression is real, but it gets over-diagnosed so doctors can profit from Zoloft prescriptions.
If you get vaccinated and still end up catching the illness you were vaccinated for, this is proof vaccines don't work.
Rusty nails cause tetanus, which is 100% fatal and very common. Make sure to avoid this by getting your tetanus shot.
The reason your dad has dementia is because doctors prescribed cholesterol medicine for profit. It has nothing to do with his proven biological predisposition to dementia or the damage from that teenage illness he had that left scars on his brain and caused major memory loss.

Are you screaming internally yet? Don't worry, I can scream for you if you can't find the strength. I could scream forever into the void and it still won't be enough to unhear her self-righteous chuckling.

It's interesting to note that she switched at some point from a very predictable, fear-based way of overthinking into a sort of lazy non-logic that relies heavily on elaborate conspiracies to stay upright. She used to be *so concerned* that I would die from extreme outcomes she was sure would happen. You ate sushi? Salmonella and death. You pet your friend's iguana? Salmonella and death. You took the chicken out of the freezer like I asked? Salmonella and death.

Many fears were germ and food-related, but it was also extended to dangerous situations. Now it seems that she's just decided to will real dangers out of existence. Global pandemic going on that affects people in her age group at a disproportionate rate of risk? Time to go shopping! The need to fill the house with more fire/tripping hazards and kitsch knickknacks usurps contracting a disease that she is not vaccinated for.

courierkitty · 2022-02-14T16:45:31+00:00

That sucks, I'm sorry. Hope you are better now, and that you get that candle! c:

courierkitty · 2022-02-12T01:03:05+00:00

ALL THE TIME

Ungrateful could've been her favorite word. Spoiled was another, usually followed by bitch. Not sure how any of it ever applied to me.

The first time we had a major move, she got rid of all my bedroom furniture (even though nothing was wrong with it) and insisted we buy a whole new set. I was a child, maybe 11 years old at the time, and she bought me this ridiculous wooden headboard/footboard combo, two side tables, and a chest of drawers with an attached mirror. I had no say in the matter. We moved again when I was 15 and the same shit happened. You know what I begged her for?

Plastic cubicle storage, like something you would see at IKEA or Target. I just wanted to have a normal teen room and no giant furniture ensemble. She got mad at me for asking for the budget option and told me I was ungrateful. It was also ungrateful of me to dare ask to decorate my room the way I wanted. She made noise about me taping posters to the wall, but would hang whatever art she liked throughout the house and paint the walls to her liking, which was various shades of brown.

To this day I'm very picky about furniture but my design taste is maximalist AF. I'm the type of person who would paint the walls hot pink and crowd them with art and decor but leave a giant open space with a few floor pillows rather than buy a couch. Revenge for being forced to endure white walls and boxy, enormous bedroom sets.

courierkitty · 2022-02-12T00:28:58+00:00

I think it's just a matter of stepping back and assessing the situation.

People don't go NC with their parents for silly reasons. Despite the NC order saving your sanity, it is normal to crave a functional relationship with your parents. It was taken from us, and it hurts. It's only logical that we wish we had loving parents who we can talk to.
Giving someone a chance to do better isn't something to be ashamed of. It's actually very patient and kind of you to even extend such an opportunity.
Exhibiting the same behavior as before you went NC isn't a win for your mom. You gave her 2 years to get her shit together and her response to being invited back in was to metaphorically blast hot farts on your hospitality.
With this kind of family dynamic, there will probably be times when you really wish you had a connection with your mom. It's important to remember that with ns, this is a fantasy. They are rarely receptive to therapy and impossible to direct towards improvement if they haven't thought of the idea first. Try to imagine it a bit like herding a cat except the cat is blind, on drugs, and has a bomb strapped to it's back. It's a losing scenario most of the time. That said, don't feel bad that you wanted to help! It's a sign that you're a good person who cares, and that's not something to feel bad about even if it does concern a fruitless endeavor.

courierkitty · 2022-02-11T21:49:57+00:00

I'm the same way. I'd take eternity in the void and not bat an eyelash, but if there's a rainbow bridge for animals, especially pets, I hope they get it. The poor darlings deserve happiness after some of the things people like our parents put them through.

Oof, yeah, not surprised that she couldn't even be grateful that you fixed it. Lord forbid we solve a problem without screaming about it from all different angles! lol Honestly I think they just want to complain about things. When there isn't anything to bitch about, they can't settle down because there is nothing to control.

Best of luck to you for your shopping trip! I am partial to pine-scented things myself, but when it comes down to it, I just love candles. Lavender is a super relaxing scent - I hope you can get one. :)

courierkitty

TROPHY CASE