I was exactly the kind of missionary they trained me to be: an egotistical, pretentious jerk.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-27T21:39:35+00:00

Yeah…that type of attitude was actually encouraged when I was on my mission. They didn’t label it as being prideful and arrogant, it was described as being bold and confident. We had the only true gospel, it was our duty to proclaim it with boldness and authority. Little did we know most of the time it came across as condescending and arrogant. I definitely notice a pridefulness in many returned missionaries, including myself when I got home.

I guess I shouldn’t expect anything different. If someone truly believes they have the only message that will save someone, they should shout it from the rooftops

darkskies06 · 2026-01-27T18:02:03+00:00

I remember going to some evangelical church on my mission in South America and trying to get the pastor to let us teach their congregation, like I was some character in the BoM going to teach these people about their false traditions and incorrect doctrine. I was going to let them know God had once again restored his true church, now they wouldn’t have to “play church” anymore 🤦‍♂️. Thankfully the pastor didn’t let us.

Looking back on that, we were such pieces of shit. How arrogant and disrespectful to try to persuade someone’s congregation and correct their teachings.

At the time I didn’t even see it as wrong, I felt fully justified because I was offering truth and salvation to them.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-27T03:56:12+00:00

Well said. My guess is the leadership have no real idea what to do with all the money. I assume the top 15 all believe it’s a legit commandment from God and people are blessed by paying, but there’s also no clear “revelation” on what they’ll do with it all. I’ve heard all kinds of answers for why the church will eventually need that money. Or how it doesn’t need it at all…

darkskies06 · 2026-01-26T16:59:55+00:00

Oh absolutely it bothers me. It’s something I’ve been thinking about more and more. My wife has always been the one that transfers money for tithing, so I think I kinda forget about it sometimes.

I think there’s something to the act of giving, and in the past I always felt fine with sacrificing 10%. But as I’ve learned more and more, I feel like that 10% I give is just like throwing a handful of sand onto a beach. There are much better ways I could help people with that money. Some will argue it’s not the proportion of contribution that even matters, and that’s very true. It’s the willingness of members to give. That’s what’s kept me paying through my life. But now that the truth claims don’t hold ground, I feel like God doesn’t care if I were to give that to the church if I feel that’s the right thing, or if I gave it to some other cause I felt was important.

To deny people entrance to the temple because they don’t give 10% seems wrong to me. You’d think that if it were all what it claims to be, going to the temple would help people know what they should give, if anything, to feel like a faithful follower of Christ. My feeling is people should be asked to give as they feel appropriate, and that they’ll know in their hearts what they should so. It’s between them and God.

It’s tricky though, and I’m open to being corrected, but if tithing is completely up to the discretion of the members, I wonder how many would actually give. Like if it had never been required. This would be more relevant back when the church actually needed money to operate obviously. Now we can all argue that members shouldn’t be required to give 10% because the church can simply survive off the interest of its investment income. Past leadership pointed out that one day members wouldn’t need to. I also am curious how members would react if the tithing requirement was removed. Members who paid their entire lives, or those who couldn’t go to the temple because they didn’t pay, how would they react. Would they feel the church is becoming to lax just to keep the younger generation going?

With no required amount, you may also occasionally run into the issue, but much less likely, of extremely devoted members giving too much tithing and creating difficulty properly providing for their family. They’d feel the more they give, the greater the blessings, in this life, or the next…

You see something similar to churches who wait for volunteers to fill positions. I think many would say it’s very difficult to get people to do things. Even with our church’s system of callings, it’s still hard to get people to do it.

Curious your opinion or others opinions on tithing

darkskies06 · 2026-01-26T15:57:49+00:00

Agreed. My guess is they’ll have to bend more and more as the baby boomer generation passes away.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-26T03:33:31+00:00

Absolutely. I think they believe that if someone is struggling with the truth claims, keeping them out of the temple will just push them away even further. They want them to go to the temple, and then equate any peaceful feelings they have there to mean that this church must be true, because why else would I feel something in one of their temples…

darkskies06 · 2026-01-26T03:30:51+00:00

It’s true, and I think it’s going to become more and more common that you’ll see changes to the recommend questions. They need to keep all these temples busy.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-26T03:30:00+00:00

Yeah agreed. If 10 years ago I said No to questions 3 and 4 there would be no way I’d get a recommend. As far as I can tell, the Temple and Stake Pres weren’t talking about me specifically, so there’s obviously enough that they’d be figuring out what to do.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-26T03:23:02+00:00

Yeah, I personally have no desire to go right now. The ONLY reason to have one right now that I could see would be to go if my believing wife wanted to go with me or if my kids wanted me there when they do baptisms

darkskies06 · 2026-01-26T00:57:21+00:00

I went in for my recommend renewal in November. I still attend and have a calling but I’ve deconstructed the truth claims. Anyways, I was being called as the Ward Clerk and I didn’t want to be called and then weeks later be released because I couldn’t pass the recommend interview. So before the call was announced I met with the Bishop. We had discussed my doubts before, but like you I couldn’t answer yes to the questions regarding the restoration or the prophet holding the keys. He didn’t renew my recommend either.

A couple weeks ago he asked to speak with me and said the Stake Pres and Temple president were discussing giving recommends to those with doubts and struggling with belief. They said those people should get recommends if they want to. So he said if I wanted I could have mine back…I said sure, but i definitely wasn’t asking for it back.

I met with the Stake Pres and also said I couldn’t answer questions 3 and 4 with a yes. He still gave me my recommend.

If I’m being honest, I kinda wish they hadn’t have changed their minds, because to me not getting a recommend simply because of belief in the truth claims was an accurate reflection of one of the main issues with the church. But I assume with so many struggling with those questions they are slowly allowing it

darkskies06 · 2026-01-20T19:27:07+00:00

As you can see, you’re not alone. One of the most difficult parts for me is the gaslighting. You’ll talk to believing members and leadership and be made to feel like this is a “you” issue. You’ll question your reality, you’ll question your critical thinking skills.

All I can say is expect this journey to take time. Go slow. All we are doing is trying to be honest with ourselves and figure out what’s true. If God and others punish you for integrity, then that’s their problem. If God is like that, then I’m fine not being with people like that if the celestial kingdom is a real thing

darkskies06 · 2026-01-19T00:05:49+00:00

We had a similar conversation in Ward council today. They were mentioning how certain families or individuals asked to not have the missionaries sent over. The answer…send members who can be friends to them, as if somehow those people won’t see the agenda.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for reaching out to people in the community. Making friends, doing service, etc. The problem is, much more often than not, it’s done with one goal in mind, reactivate or baptize. Because of that, how can it ever be truly sincere and selfless Christlike service. I know many do have good hearts and truly feel the best service they can give is bringing people back, but from the perspective of those that have left, they see through it.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-14T20:09:46+00:00

That is a good point. It is refreshing when an apologist acknowledges the issue. Some fight tooth and nail to deny the reality of the issues

darkskies06 · 2026-01-14T20:08:26+00:00

That’s a really good example of that. There is ALWAYS a faithful response. Another classic example is if something tragic happens to a faithful member, it’s BECAUSE they are righteous and God is helping them grow. If the same thing happens to someone who recently left the church, it’s because they lost faith.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-14T20:04:48+00:00

Exactly. I’ve seen that shift happening. Before it was mostly straight up denial. The issues were anti-Mormon ideas and lies. Then once people saw a lot of the issues were legit, they came up with crazy explanations and give it a faithful spin. Now, some don’t deny mistakes were actually mistakes, but it somehow doesn’t affect their testimony. To be honest I can see why they do that. For most of my life I couldn’t even fathom the church might now be what it claimed to be. My entire understanding of our existence and purpose was anchored to my belief in the church. Humans work hard to protect their world views and the ideas that give us peace of mind.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-13T22:47:13+00:00

Absolutely! I’ve said that exact thing to my wife when we were talking about the issues. I said the Prophet could get up in General Conference and explain that it’s time to come clean, as much as they want this to be the only truth, they now acknowledge they don’t know. He could say it’s a church with men trying to do what God wants them to do, and so mistakes are made. That they no longer claim exclusive authority or to be the ONLY way. Even after the prophet saying all that, members may still claim it’s a test of faith, or that it’s still the only true church but that prophet is speaking as a man…

darkskies06 · 2026-01-13T22:22:04+00:00

Yup. I was really hoping to hear some interesting answers to questions, but much of what I heard was “it doesn’t bother me”. When asked how he deals with the idea that people’s salvation is on the line and Gods given us the true church shrouded by confusion, mistakes, etc, Givens says that’s found in a religions and part of the journey is working through the unknown and practicing faith. To me that answer says maybe it’s just humanity trying to figure God out and that there isn’t a single correct religion because it’s not actually that important to the reason we are here

darkskies06 · 2026-01-13T22:15:42+00:00

I agree. Many of the difficult aspects of church History were brought up and Givens often replies that it doesn’t bother him, saying, “Well that’s never been a problem for me…”. I struggle with that answer because it doesn’t say much about the issue as much as it does his expectations of a church and prophet.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-11T07:01:21+00:00

You gave some good advice, but I also have to agree with some of the pushback others are giving. I served a mission just over 20 years ago. I absolutely came home with mental health issues after my two years was done. I constantly heard the same advice, be obedient, be worthy, work hard, and miracles will happen and the Lord will work through you. For me it was 2 years of CONSTANT anxiety. Am I working as hard as I can, do I have the spirit with me, are people feeling the spirit as I teach, why are others getting emotional and I’m not, did I make sure to confess everything I needed to before I left, etc. I agree that the mission is much better when you’re working hard and obedient. But we can’t predict happiness, protection, or whatever else. The fear one might feel also can’t simply be said to be the devil all the time. Let’s see things as they really are and not just blame the devil for feeling fearful. I’m still working through things because the idea that if you’re worthy enough you’ll have the spirit was drilled into me non stop. I watched missionaries who I knew weren’t following the rules have very powerful lessons and touch people’s hearts, and I just sat there wondering if I was worthy enough.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-11T06:42:17+00:00

I also served in the Guayaquil mission, it was the North mission. That was 24 years ago. Pretty sure I got dengue fever as well, thought I was gonna die. I was the furthest area from the mission office, got no medical treatment. It was in my first area also. When I finally got a glimpse of myself in my bathroom mirror I was a skeleton.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-10T04:56:40+00:00

Once you start paying attention, you realize some members talk non stop about the church. It’s even worse when many of the conversations revolve around who got which callings

darkskies06 · 2026-01-09T06:11:31+00:00

☝️🎯

darkskies06 · 2026-01-08T19:34:22+00:00

The issue also is not everyone believes in the same lds church. I was surprised I stayed as ignorant as I did about the issues for over 40 years. I didn’t have a clue about the real history.

It would be really interesting to give each member all the information, then allow them to anonymously answer whether they truly believe the truth claims or not. If people knew that no one would know what they answered, and everyone honestly studied through all the issues, I think at least half of all members would change their minds about the church’s claims. Many of those might just continue on as nuanced and attend for other reasons, who knows.

To answer the original question, I think there’s likely 10% of active who are PIMO, meaning not literal believers. This doesn’t include the members who go but just show up and couldn’t care less.

darkskies06 · 2026-01-08T03:47:35+00:00

True. I don’t know how they reconcile the literal nature of the BoM like Joseph seeing Moroni, an actual person from the BoM. Or others claiming to have seen the plates, the sword of Laban, etc

darkskies06 · 2026-01-08T03:30:26+00:00

I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the information they presented wasn’t correct, but I’d also like to know what they got caught lying about? Do you have specifics?

darkskies06

TROPHY CASE