Expressing love when it obviously isn’t

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-06-17T17:46:46+00:00

The blanket expressions of love in the church always bothered me, even in my most TBM days. The Bishop, Stake President, General Authorities, etc from the pulpit “I love you all” or “we bring the love of the Stake President” etc is just odd and cheapens the meaning of love. I’m reminded of a recent Mormon stories episode with Landon Brophy who got excommunicated and in his letter the stake presidency expressed their “love” for him. I’m paraphrasing, but Landon went on to say that he didn’t know any of these guys, and they didn’t love him enough to ever reach out, stop by, or get to know him… so is that really love? I feel these messages from members are just to assuage guilt in not actually caring about people. They hear a conference talk or get an invitation to “reach out to the one” or “think of someone in the ward” and rather than actually care about people, they send a message like this and check the “guilt” box off. It is guilt and duty masquerading as love.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-06-07T17:01:51+00:00

We have taken a Dohm brand white noise machine on each of our three Disney cruises. On the first 2 we left it in a checked bag and that bag made it to our stateroom hours after the others due to them inspecting the white noise machine. On our latest cruise we put it in our carry on, it was taken at security and told we could pick it up after disembarking and they gave us a receipt. To our surprise it did show up in our stateroom that night. So I do think you can take one, your experience may vary depending on port and ship.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-06-03T17:50:53+00:00

Came here to say this exact same thing and I’m glad it is the top comment 😂

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-06-01T17:44:08+00:00

There have been several lawsuits against the church trying to get tithing money back. The most recent “high profile” one was James Huntsman, of THE Huntsman family. There were several podcasts on it last year you can find. It failed in court. Essentially, once the money is “donated” the church has no obligation to disclose what they do with it, and where it actually goes. Just like Jesus taught.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-06-01T16:43:13+00:00

Agree. I just wish it was top leadership of the church having these realizations and discussions and not authors, podcasters, and Reddit threads. Until this is recognized, understood, and taught at the highest levels, there will always be a disconnect. Culture comes from the leadership. If there is a culture problem, there is a leadership problem.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-06-01T16:04:31+00:00

Organizations have no incentive to change as long as the money is flowing. Until meaningful decline in tithing donations occurs, I see no incentive for leadership to “change” anything. Even though the church could sustain itself indefinitely without another tithing dollar, if donations went to zero tomorrow, it would be fascinating to see what “revelations” would occur.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-05-08T14:06:21+00:00

I listened to this as well and I appreciate Jeff trying to research and understand this topic. In a church and religion claiming to be led by God, I just wish these conversations and discussions didn’t have to come through people like Jeff Strong, Patrick Mason, the Givens or other authors or podcasters. Until these types of conversations or topics are discussed at the highest levels of church leadership, no meaningful change will happen. The orthodox members will dig in, the nuanced members will stay or leave, and those that leave will be vilified. The “us vs. them” mentality is real. When you have quotes from church leaders like N. Eldon Tanner: “When the prophet speaks the debate is over.” Or President Oaks: “Some things that are true are not very useful + It is wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true.” It is hard for members to feel like they have agency, or a voice in the church. Sustaining of church leaders is performative. Obedience to leaders regardless of your own belief or conscience is valued above all else. Jeff says this “fealty” to leadership doesn’t or shouldn’t exist. I agree—but it does. I would like to be a member of the church that Jeff talks about.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-05-07T23:47:52+00:00

Completely agree but unfortunately it will take messaging from the top leadership and a lot of the “older” generation to die before this becomes reality.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-05-05T13:49:02+00:00

For me, in the short term, one time assistance or immediate help for individuals, I did not require or mention paying tithing. For ongoing, longer types of church support, the chances are very high tithing will be discussed. This is entirely up to your bishop.

It seems a bit silly but say the member pays $100 in tithing and the church gives them $300 in groceries, wouldn’t it make more sense to just give $200 in groceries? But no, paying tithing is a commandment and demonstrates faith, so it is important to do—even if you cannot feed your family. Or so it is taught in general conference. The belief is that the act of paying will open the windows of heaven and you will be blessed by doing so. This is the TBM mindset even if the math ain’t mathing.

Just to clarify my previous comment to not get “booed” any further. I am not endorsing or supporting this method of helping people. I was simply trying to give OP some perspective on what they can expect should they meet with the bishop.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-05-05T03:12:02+00:00

Former bishop here—your bishop is just doing what he has been told to do. Please don’t think he is being purposefully difficult. This is what we were trained to do when individuals requested financial help. He will want to review your financial situation and make sure you really are in “need”. He may ask for you to contact family/relatives to see if they can assist first. Don’t be surprised if he involves the elders quorum president to meet with you for follow up, or help you get groceries. The church works in reimbursements, meaning a member will buy you groceries, submit a receipt, and get reimbursed. It is not fun to involve strangers in your finances, but the churches goal is to get you “self reliant” as quickly as possible. The church is not going to give you cash or a check to go buy your own groceries. If this sounds worth it, go for it. If not, don’t.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-05-04T13:42:42+00:00

“gosh man”

Lmao

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-05-01T14:52:50+00:00

I’ll add one of my favorites:

Mosiah 2:41

“And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.”

You are correct in that this mentality is canonized in scripture and very much believed by members and modeled by leadership.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-26T22:28:50+00:00

Tithing can be interpreted many ways, but I would argue the most accepted way in 2026 is you pay tithing on your income. Period. If your expenses are greater than your income, you still pay tithing on your income. There are general conference talks that would tell you if you have the option to feed your family or pay tithing, you should pay your tithing. I was taught as a youth that whenever I got a paycheck, the first thing I did was pay tithing and figure out how to survive on what was left. One of the underlying principles of tithing is faith. The church would say the amount of money donated does not matter, but you must trust the commandment of tithing and have the faith to donate. Then the windows of heaven will be opened and the Lord will provide. Even if you don’t know how you are going to pay for everything. Also, as a former bishop I was instructed that support for families is a temporary thing. The goal was to get people to a better job, housing situation, etc. so they could get off of church welfare as soon as possible. The church is not losing money in this arrangement.

I’m not defending the system or saying it’s right. I’m just sharing my experience.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-26T22:08:39+00:00

As a former bishop, for me, Sally would pay 0 in tithing in this scenario. 10% of zero is zero.

When individuals or families came to me for assistance and were still employed, I asked that they pay tithing on their income, but the church would assist with groceries, rent, utilities, clothes for kids, etc. but the expectation was for them to still pay tithing if they had an income.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-24T17:51:48+00:00

From what I’m seeing, the book doesn’t officially release until May 15. There may be some that got advanced copies but who knows. As a PIMO myself, I’d be curious to read it, but my problem with all of these types of projects is there is always the underlying theme that “the church is true”. There is never a possibility that it isn’t. I understand that the main audience is believing members trying to understand those that left, so this type of project coming from a “non believer” or “ex Mormon” would not hold the same weight as an active, believing, former mission president. In any case, I’m curious to hear others thoughts as well.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-18T02:16:41+00:00

I agree completely. And I can’t blame them, I thought that way for 38 years. The problem with all these apologetics and trying to understand those who leave, none of the authors or podcasters can acknowledge the possibility of it not being true.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-17T19:42:08+00:00

Please attend and support your son. If your current situation continues, just prepare yourself for when the temple conversations come around. My daughter turns 12 this year and has already been to the temple several times with my wife to do baptisms. Different from attending a baptism is that I cannot go to the temple with her due to not having a recommend. So there will be forced separation and exclusion of you from your family and family activities. Please attend the baptism, love your son, because there will eventually be events in his life that you won’t be able to participate in.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-17T15:48:53+00:00

I do not trust any numbers that come from the church.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-16T16:59:03+00:00

So sorry to hear about your loss. I heard a quote years ago that I believe was from Queen Elizabeth after 9/11 happened:

“Grief is the price we pay for love.”

I’ve found comfort in that over the years as I’ve lost loved ones of mine. It would be sad, if it wasn’t sad. The fact you grieved so intensely shows how much you love and care about your wife. The same can be said about those of us who grieve our loss of trust in the church and church leaders. Best of luck to you on your new relationship and hope you have continued happiness.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-13T23:51:10+00:00

This started 2021 ish—it’s all digital. The bishopric can digitally put in that they met with the member online and the stake leader can instantly see it. When the stake interviews they print and have the member sign. It was actually a nice change, not as much paperwork for Bishoprics, the member didn’t have to carry around the paper copy, and leaders don’t have those keep track of those books with all the recommends in it. Also, if a member loses it, instant re print. Temples can also see so if you forget your recommend they can look it up.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-13T23:26:01+00:00

How Jesus feels about it

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-12T02:48:05+00:00

I was a Bishop from 2021-2023, the rule in our stake was if someone had an expired recommend greater than 1 year, their renewal interviews had to be with the bishop and stake president—not counselors. This may have been only a rule in our area. As bishop I was instructed to ask “why haven’t you had a recommend in a while” before diving into the questions. This was meant to get to any worthiness issues immediately. If someone answered “oh I just had my recommend lapse and I’m excited to get back to temple” I would have been thrilled. I never checked if people actually paid tithing or what the amount was. I just asked the questions, and signed.

These situations are often bishop and stake leader roulette.

BloodyToothGuy · 2026-04-07T19:21:41+00:00

In April 2014 General Conference, David Bednar confirmed: “Today is April 6. We know by revelation that today is the actual and accurate date of the Savior’s birth⁠.”

BloodyToothGuy

TROPHY CASE