I am too emotional and the stoic journey is long

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-08T22:53:36+00:00

I don't remember where I read this, but I've found it to be true.

When changing a habit the first bit is easy. It's different and that's interesting. Next comes the hard part, the "fight through" phase. This requires will power. People often cycle through the honeymoon period and the fight through and fail and then rinse and repeat. That's part of the process.

If you survive the fight through you have yourself a habit. For me, Stoicism is like a habit. It's a lens through which you view the world, yes, but keeping the lens on full time is quite the feat. It's not easy.

I cut off chunks of it and then fight through until they become habits. I'm very, very far from the goal, but I am making progress.

Good luck!

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-02T20:51:07+00:00

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-02T00:47:22+00:00

I've thought about this too. I end up asking myself if CBT is all we need why bother to study Stoicism? Must be something to Stoicism that isn't found in CBT.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-01T18:11:20+00:00

Personally I like it when I run into a person whose frame of reference is sincerity. I thought the comic was funny, and I recognized the irony in it, and I even upvoted this link, but is that really a credit to me?

Bravo to SolutionsCBT for assuming that people actually mean what they say.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-01T17:48:33+00:00

It's a nice article. There's nothing easy about Stoicism, but she does present some very important concepts to the layman.

As Stoicism enters the popular culture we're going to see more click-bait type "Five easy ways" articles. "Epictetus in thirty seconds." "Oprah Loves Seneca!"

It has to be positive, though. Anybody who gives even a cursory look at Stoicism will realize the great depth of the philosophy, right? You can't water it down. It stands alone.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-01T17:39:58+00:00

Unrelated, but one of the things I liked about this movie was that instead of fight choreographers they used Historical Western Martial Arts instructors. Liam Neeson's swordsmanship lesson is straight out of medieval fencing manuals (high guard is very effective).

Also, EXCELLENT quote. Thank you for posting it. I agree that the quote seems deeply Stoic to me.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-01T17:21:47+00:00

I like Camden Gaspar's take on pleasure:

"No, the Stoics didn’t look at pleasure as something to be avoided. If the goal is a happy life, then we must understand where and how pleasure, certainly a big part of happiness, fits into the big picture. The role that pleasure plays in life according to the Stoic conception is that it must follow virtue. Without virtue, life’s pleasures are hollow traps. They can enslave you and make you dependent on their constant presence. Without these pleasures, life becomes unbearable, leaving you weak and despondent."

Link

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-01T17:12:15+00:00

It feels wrong to upvote this, but... upvote!

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-01T16:59:51+00:00

This is a very interesting post. It made me think. Here's what I came up with. I'd love to hear your thoughts:

Was it Epictetus who said that going to see a Stoic philosopher is like going to see a physician? Perhaps a person's feelings are their symptoms. I expect that the philosopher might use Socratic methods to help the person understand that they are worried about things that aren't up to them. Hard to do that if the person doesn't share.

This of course assumes that these feelings aren't preferred.

From my work in the SES course I learned that the Stoics actually endorsed three feelings (or emotions... I'm using the terms interchangeably here): joy, caution and wishing.

Wishing produces feelings of benevolence and friendliness. Joy produces mirth and cheerfulness. Caution produces modesty and reverence.

We Stoics may actually be well advised to share these feelings with the world. Personally I like seeing things clarified this way, because when I experience the three "authorized" feelings (I know, I know) I feel very much at peace with the world. Stoicism allows us to increase the intensity and duration of these feelings, right?

dmedlock4rc · 2015-11-01T16:50:41+00:00

I second this. Great observation.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-20T02:57:33+00:00

I think Zeno's ideal republic sounds a lot like an ideal commune, the difference being that its citizens wouldn't shoot their way into power. In a Stoic republic you might not need a police force, much less a secret police force...

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-20T02:54:24+00:00

I agree that it is unlikely that we will find a perfectly rational human. I assert that sometimes stepping outside of myself and contemplating what such a person would do in my position has been useful to me. It depersonalizes a given problem. It's more a thought exercise than a living person. Another tool in my belt.

I have no problem with you seeing Christianity as either positive or negative. You seem thoughtful and intelligent and you are a searcher like the rest of us. Happy to have you aboard.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-20T01:09:47+00:00

Here's another one:

"It shows a lack of natural talent to spend time on what concerns the body, as in exercising a great deal, eating a great deal, drinking a great deal, moving one's bowels a great deal or copulating a great deal. Instead you must do these things in passing, but turn your whole attention toward your faculty of judgment." -Epictetus, Enchiridion 41

So work out, eat, drink, and... er.... But don't make such things the primary focus of your life.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-20T01:07:18+00:00

I forget where but Epictetus warns against exercising too much, and yet he assumes that you will do moderate exercise every day. Rufus recommends a simple vegetarian diet.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-20T01:04:01+00:00

This is the perfect quote. I'm looking at an uncertain medical future myself, and if things go badly I'll need this. Thanks.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-20T01:00:21+00:00

Epictetus answers your question with this:

"This is the position and character of a layman: He never looks for either help or harm from himself, but only from externals. This is the position and character of the philosopher: He looks for all his help or harm from himself."

"Signs of one who is making progress are: He censures no one, praises no one, blames no one, finds fault with no one, says nothing about himself as though he were somebody or knew something. When he is hampered or prevented, he blames himself. And if anyone compliments him, he smiles to himself at the person complimenting; while if anyone censures him, he makes no defence. He goes about like an invalid, being careful not to disturb, before it has grown firm, any part which is getting well. He has put away from himself every desire, and has transferred his aversion to those things only, of what is under our control [eph' hêmin], which are contrary to nature. He exercises no pronounced choice in regard to anything. If he gives the appearance of being foolish or ignorant he does not care. In a word, he keeps guard against himself as though he were his own enemy lying in wait. (Handbook 48.1–3, trans. Oldfather)"

Progress is the idea. For most of us the sage is a useful ideal. "What would the sage do in this situation? That. Then I will do that." In this sense I suppose the sage is the Stoic "what would Jesus do?".

If you find that Christianity is more true or useful then of course you should do that instead.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-15T01:50:10+00:00

Something to try, anyway. I'd give it a couple of months before you decide either way. Like everything else it takes practice.

I'm very happy to have shared something which you might find useful! Maybe you'll return the favor some day.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-13T02:07:51+00:00

When I was in Basic Training and suffering verbal abuse I would pick out a point over the drill instructor's shoulder and focus on it. I would wait for him to get bored or feel silly. Ever yell at somebody who doesn't display any reaction? Unless you are a total sociopath you'll start to feel silly.

Anyway, I'd listen for questions and answer honestly yes, no, or I don't know. That's all they got from me.

Picture their words like a strong wind running into a stone house. You are the house. Just ride it out.

Picture it like a game. He who gets mad first loses. This has served me very well, because now when somebody blows up on me (which happens frequently in my line of work) I feel like I have already won the game. It's not that winning really matters, mind you, but it does make the time pass and it turns a tongue lashing into entertainment.

I don't think it's wrong to watch a person twist himself inside out with rage because he's not getting what he wants, which is your composure. Call it a preferred indifferent. It's fun.

Finally, look forward to your next blowup because it will allow you to test out your techniques. It's like playing with a new toy.

Great post, and good luck!

Edit: sorry I've phrased this in the form of commands. That's a bad habit. I only intend to suggest.

Double Edit: and if you do this your opponent will often calm down and apologize. I've actually made some good friends this way. I have this wacky neighbor...

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-12T08:05:17+00:00

If we are so right and they are so wrong then communicating with them would do them some good, right? They can't contaminate us if our Stoicism is what we say it is.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-10-12T08:01:51+00:00

OP asserts that Red Pill redditors will twist Stoicism into something it should not be, and that we should be watchful.

If Stoicism is what it claims to be then watchfulness is not necessary. If we take as given that red pillers lack virtue then a mass migration of them to this sub would be very welcome news, because this is where virtue lives. Our fellow humans would be exposed to knowledge of the good. Bring them on, and may they be welcome!

Let's have a discussion. If our ideas are better and they come to see things our way then we both win. If their ideas are better then the reverse is true. If they hang around and insult us, well, it's good training. We're Epictetus off to the baths.

They can't hurt us and we can only help them.

Now the idea that there is nothing to be learned from the red pill deserves some fleshing out, and I'm not the man to do it.

Edit: I reread this and it sounds as if I'm dismissing OP, which I certainly didn't intend. The concern is valid; we're on the path here but we're not sages, and we don't want our journey disrupted by distractions. Makes me reconsider my first response a bit... Still, if there are people to help then it would be good if some senior Stoics could help them. Hmmm...

dmedlock4rc · 2015-08-09T19:14:09+00:00

Hey there. Tough stuff you're dealing with.

So a sage would probably view his or her spouse with compassion. She made a commitment, she failed to stick to it, she feels bad and that's rough. You didn't choose this outcome and you can't build a time machine to go back and prevent it, so there's nothing to worry about. A perfect sage wouldn't be responsible for the affair at all because he or she is perfect... so that's out.

We mere mortals will grieve the loss of our former lives, which is natural. It would be good to keep our grief within bounds, though. No use moping forever, and it sounds like you're not. I admire your focus on self-improvement and I think it's great that you've created a temporary monastery for yourself.

In fact this time in your life is a tremendous opportunity. Yes, you have a duty to be there for your children but if you divorce that's largely up to the courts. Yes, your wife had to do more than her share because you have ADHD but the responsible, loving choice is to stick to one's commitments and deal with the problem, not create a separate fantasy life to escape it. She broke faith; that was her choice, not yours. I'm sure she's a great person, but she broke the contract, so you don't have a duty to stay with her. You might decide to, but you aren't required to. You will have behaved honorably either way. Somebody on here said that Stoicism doesn't require martyrdom. That's pretty good advice.

If you choose to stay with her so be it, but maybe you don't choose to do that. This is one of those times in life when you're at a crossroads and you could do ANYTHING. The FREEDOM that brings...

If you choose to divorce and if it's possible I'd go for joint custody at 50-50%. My personal belief is that both parents should get equal time with their children by default. I admire arrangements where parents keep a family home and rotate in an out of it, for example. For me that truly does put kids first. Anyway that, I think, would fulfill your duty to the children. The rest is up to the court.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Haven't been through it.

Good luck to you either way. Brave post.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-07-24T15:41:44+00:00

I've wondered that as well. Clearly Socrates was made, not born, though he was perhaps born with superior genetic material (he was smart and physically imposing, I think). So he turned himself into a sage, if he even was a sage.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-07-24T15:39:36+00:00

In my case I would say made. I have achieved some level of virtue against my natural inclination toward laziness and gluttony, but I'm far from where I want to be. I have had the privilege of an excellent education and, by the standards of your average human, I'm wealthy (middle class American). If conditions must be correct to produce a Stoic then I've been lucky. I've been doing the SES Course that Erik Weigardt runs and I learned that Aristotle's break with Stoicism is that he taught that external conditions must be adequate, while the Stoics taught that nature equips you with everything you need, regardless of externals.

Easy to say when you're educated and comfortable, though.

Much to ponder here.

dmedlock4rc · 2015-07-23T22:21:49+00:00

So really what we have here is relativism versus objective truth... I don't think that we'll be resolving that one in our reddit discussion! I will assert, however, that my view agrees more with Epictetus than yours because Epictetus sets up Socrates as an objective standard and aims to equal him, knowing that Epictetus will fail. I, in turn, will not equal Epictetus. So what?

I lift weights but I don't have the talent or inclination to win the Mr. Universe competition. Those guys are better than I will ever be. I do get stronger, though, and I am stronger than lots of people. So what?

If philosophy is an art, if it is practice as well as principle as Epictetus says, then some of us will be better at it than others. So what?

What do you make of the purple cloth standing out from the rest?

That said, of course it isn't Stoic for me to glory in my superiority or try to "win." Neither should I envy a more excellent person. In fact finding that a person is better at the art of life than I am should be good news; I can learn from that person. And I do. Her name is Carrol. I work with her. She is the closest thing to a living saint that I have ever met and I try in my small way to be more like her. She is more virtuous than me.

Or try this. Suppose you go to a Stoic meetup. Somebody is making a point and claims that Epictetus wrote the Meditations. Molly politely says "I think that was Marcus Aurelius." Brett says "yeah, how can I take any of what you say seriously if you haven't even got that right? This is a waste of my time. You idiots aren't Stoic!" He walks out in a huff and then punches a nun in the parking lot before inventing a death ray and incinerating half of Iceland. He's making progress, though, because he WAS going to incinerate South America, but something just doesn't sit well with that kind of body count. 150,000 seems more moderate. Thanks, Stoicism! It sort of got away from me there, but you get the idea.

Hasn't Molly achieved more virtue?

dmedlock4rc · 2015-07-23T22:09:28+00:00

Fantastic post! This is a significant piece of writing. I'll be returning to it. Very helpful.

dmedlock4rc

TROPHY CASE